Prince Jean of France and Philomena de Tornos: 19 March and 2 May 2009

[Renata4711]

The wedding sermon can be found here, in French:
Homélie de Mgr Philippe Brizard - France Catholique

 

[Marengo]

Please note that we do not allow an open discussion of other forums/message boards on this forum. Feel free to continue the exchange by personal message though

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More pictures from Dutch royalty watcher mardam:

Wedding Jean and Philomena

 

[V.F.H.78]

No Duc d'Anjou?

No magnik. Luis Alfonso de Bourbon, the duke of Anjou, and his wife Maria Margarita weren't invited by Jean d'Orléans.

 

[Royallife]

I don't like her wedding dress, there are too much stuff on in it, and al those colours. I like the tiara but not for a wedding.

 

[maria-olivia]

Vincent ,
Now that the wedding is over , where are living the Duc and Duchesse of Vendome ? I suppose they are both working. Could you explain what kind of work they are doing.
I want to thank you for the way you informed us about this important french royal wedding and I congratulate you once more for your perfect english..

 

[claypoint2]

No Duc d'Anjou?

No magnik. Luis Alfonso de Bourbon, the duke of Anjou, and his wife Maria Margarita weren't invited by Jean d'Orléans.

Actually, it depends on whom you consider to be the rightful Duc d'Anjou. The Count of Paris, head of the House of Orleans, bestowed the title of Duke of Anjou on Charles-Philippe, son of Prince Michel of Orleans (Count of Evreux) in 2004. Prince Charles-Philippe married the Duchess of Cadaval last year, and both were present at the wedding of the Duke and Duchess of Vendome on May 2nd. In other words, many would say that the Duke and Duchess of Anjou were indeed present at the wedding of Prince Jean of Orleans and Philomena de Tornos y Steinhart.

On the other hand, the Legitimists (who believe in the strict application of Salic Law and therefore support the claim of the elder branch of the Bourbon dynasty) consider Luis Alfonso de Borbon y Martinez-Bordiu to be the rightful Duke of Anjou. Since Luis Alfonso's claim to the French throne stands in direct opposition to that of the Orleans branch, of course he wasn't invited to the wedding at Senlis.

 

[vincent]

Marengo,

Thank you for reminding me; This is what i appreciate here. And my writing what i did was completely out of place and a bit rude.

 

[claypoint2]

Marengo,

Thank you for reminding me; This is what i appreciate here. And my writing what i did was completely out of place and a bit rude.

You weren't alone, Vincent. I am sorry, too.

 

[V.F.H.78]

Since Luis Alfonso's claim to the French throne stands in direct opposition to that of the Orleans branch, of course he wasn't invited to the wedding at Senlis.

It wasn't evident.
Last year, when the Pope Benoit XVI came to Paris, we saw the duke of Vendôme shaking the duke of Anjou's hand.
We could hope that Jean d'Orléans would invite Luis Alfonso de Bourbon to his wedding to show a picture of peace in this dynastic quarrel to all the french monarchists. But unfortunately it's not for today...

 

[rominet09]

If he had invited him it would have meant that TWO Ducs d'Anjou would have been present....not a funny situation !

 

[Katrianna]

Has the Groom's mother left the hospital? It was a shame that she was taken ill and had to miss her son's wedding.

 

[Stefan]

2 short Videos


http://la-couronne.over-blog.com/article-30961710.html

 

[MAfan]

It wasn't evident.
Last year, when the Pope Benoit XVI came to Paris, we saw the duke of Vendôme shaking the duke of Anjou's hand.
We could hope that Jean d'Orléans would invite Luis Alfonso de Bourbon to his wedding to show a picture of peace in this dynastic quarrel to all the french monarchists. But unfortunately it's not for today...

Well, I think diplomacy is very important in these occasions; and since two Dukes of Anjou cannot be present, and considering that one of them is a cousin of the groom, and that the other one has not good relations with other guests (Spanish Royal Family members), it's comprehensible that he has been not invited...

 

[V.F.H.78]

You are right. Probably two dukes of Anjou couldn't be at the same time at the same wedding. It's not easy...

Well, I have a question ; does anyone knows if princess Alix of Ligne was invited to the wedding? I know that her parents Michel of Ligne and Eleonora of Orleans-Braganza were present because I saw them on a picture, but I don't know for the daughter.

 

[claypoint2]

2 short Videos


http://la-couronne.over-blog.com/article-30961710.html

Thanks for posting these, Stefan! There is nothing like seeing the protagonists in action.

 

[BurberryBrit]

I love royal weddings. While I loved her shrug/bolero, I HATED that tiara. Really did not match her wedding ensemble.

 

[maria-olivia]

I wad glad to see some juwelry of the late Comtesse de Paris on her daughters :
Princess Claude was wearing her diamand necklace
Princess Chantal was wearing one of ther famous brooches
Princess Anne's daughter Christine , Mrs Lopez Quesada was wearing a brooch that was sold at the Comtesse de Paris auction , two letters YM.
Thanks to Vincent, altough it was difficult to see Chritine's brooch because they were not a lot of pictures of her..She should have been dressed as the Duchess of Castro.

 

[Odette]

I don't like her wedding dress, there are too much stuff on in it, and al those colours. I like the tiara but not for a wedding.

At first glance it was too busy with too many colours. It reminded me of Princess Olga's of Greece dress. (minus the head piece).
Then it is much more honest these days to show up in something with a bit of colour than a virginal white after being married for 5 weeks.
However she should have done away with that blue ribbon. Her midrift is getting thick and it made her look "fuller".
There is a photo in the Church where the bride smiles at the groom and Philomena's profile looks eerily like her step mother in law.
Still it looked like a very happy get together for the family. Madame must be smiling up there.

 

[Warren]

Posts discussing Prince Jean's siblings have been moved to the Royal Families of France thread.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Wow...I had eagerly anticipated seeing this particular bridal gown and boy was I suprised. And not in a good way either.

Can we talk, folks? I THOUGHT IT WAS UGLY. Just not very pretty at all, there was way too much going on!

I guess I just don't like Christian LaCroix designs that much. He created that mess worn by the latest Mrs Donald Trump and I had the same reaction...yuck!

The things that pass for haute couture...

 

[claypoint2]

Wow...I had eagerly anticipated seeing this particular bridal gown and boy was I suprised. And not in a good way either.

Can we talk, folks? I THOUGHT IT WAS UGLY. Just not very pretty at all, there was way too much going on!

I guess I just don't like Christian LaCroix designs that much. He created that mess worn by the latest Mrs Donald Trump and I had the same reaction...yuck!

The things that pass for haute couture...

I see it differently. Like you, I am not a big fan of Christian Lacroix in general, but I thought that through this dress he evoked the princesses of medieval Europe. For starters, he was presented with a particular tiara (belonging to Philomena's family) that had to be integrated into the overall design. Consequently the dress was, IMHO, an inspired attempt to incorporate the history of the house of France into the reality of this young woman and her family. Rather bold, I dare say. And, if you look at the details and workmanship of the dress, they are really quite extraordinary.

 

[vincent]

California dreaming,
I understand your surprise, but,
One thing about haute couture, it has nothing to do with the look of a dress, appart from the fact that it is usually unique, haute couture is more related to the way a dress iis made, details of the sewing (allways hand made and very delicate) the "essayages" in order to have a dress which fits perfectly the woman who wears it, the fabrics which are very often hand made on special order incorporating some special design or lace, or embroidery...
Having in your hand a haute couture dress is really an experience, you can turn it from one side to the other and you will find all the details beautifully made, a work of art and, all the women who can aford them say they are addicted becaus ethey fit so perfectly and are so comfortable...
This beeing said, that dress was NOT haute couture, apparently it was an adaptation of a model from the normal christian Lacroix 2009 collection. The main detail must have been the bolero which i rather enjoyed. As one of you said it was very "middle age " and really appropriate in a city like Senlis. And i really think we should try to be more original with wedding dresses, some of them are really boring in their white silk white lace, withe tulle, white bows, white every thing... (My own opinion).
I must give you credit on some points though. On a scale of 10, i would have given it around 6 or 7; Some things were not working.
-The little blue belt and very tiny bow were too much and they cut the line of the dress under the bolero.
-The tiara could have been ok, even if it is not really my taste, but the hair do was so bad. To get away with such a tiara and a veil, you needed a real technician of tiaras. And apparently the one who worked on the duchesse de vendôme 's head was her own personnal hair dresser; I guess it was the firts time he had to put a tira on a head and in my opinion he got it all wrong; One thing, you should never wear a tiara above hairs which are arranged this way;There was a big curl on one side and a smaller one on the other side. The result was, the tiara seemed to be about to fall.
I thing the hair do should have been more symetrical a bit more spectacular and the tiara worn a bit more in the back and hidden in the hairs.
Sorry to sound so technical, but this is really what i think.

 

[claypoint2]

Having in your hand a haute couture dress is really an experience, you can turn it from one side to the other and you will find all the details beautifully made, a work of art and, all the women who can aford them say they are addicted becaus ethey fit so perfectly and are so comfortable...
This beeing said, that dress was NOT haute couture, apparently it was an adaptation of a model from the normal christian Lacroix 2009 collection.

Yes, I agree that it's all about the workmanship -- haute couture is often called "wearable art." But I am pretty sure that Philomena's dress was, in fact, a couture gown. It's an adaptation of the wedding dress from Lacroix's haute couture collection for Spring-Summer 2009. It is certainly not prêt-à-porter!

I have copied the link here from another thread (thank you, Thribette). You can see the original dress if you click on pp. 54-55 -- the numbers are below the large photo on the home page.

Christian Lacroix, haute couture printemps-été 2009

 

[maria-olivia]

Of course their inspiration came from the dress pp54-55 ..with the same little belt in white , what P. should have choosen instead or the bleue-one.
This wedding was for Christian lacroix an extraodinairy coming-back and this explained also the pictures of the dress with C Lacroix and the future bride before the wedding.

 

[Al_bina]

...[snipped]
I guess I just don't like Christian LaCroix designs that much. He created that mess worn by the latest Mrs Donald Trump and I had the same reaction...yuck! ... [snipped]

If you mean Mrs. Melania Trump, her bridal gown was designed by John Galliano, who is in charge of Dior.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Really al-bina? I could have sworn that when she appeared on the cover of Vogue the article said it was Lacroix.

I love John Galliano's work, I am surprised that he created Melania's gown.

Thanks for the correction.

vincent and claypoint...thanks so much to the intelligent and detailed responses to my rather impolite outburst. You both make a lot of sense, I obviously don't know much about haute couture or the purpose behind which sometimes seem, at first glance, to be bizarre and ugly clothing.

The fact that they are sometimes not meant to necessarily be "wearable" makes a lot of sense.

Thanks very much!

 

[claypoint2]

vincent and claypoint...thanks so much to the intelligent and detailed responses to my rather impolite outburst. You both make a lot of sense, I obviously don't know much about haute couture or the purpose behind which sometimes seem, at first glance, to be bizarre and ugly clothing.

The fact that they are sometimes not meant to necessarily be "wearable" makes a lot of sense.

Thanks very much!

No worries! I actually find refreshing when people express candidly how they feel -- within the bounds of decorum, of course, and you weren't even close to breaching it. I enjoy the back and forth a great deal. Thanks for getting the conversation started!

 

[vincent]

California dreaming, you were not at all impolite, that was not what i meant,
as claypoit says, thank you for starting the conversation in a diffrent way. The all point of this board is to exchange and this is what we just did; I enjoyed it;

 

[maria-olivia]

To Vincent
Haute couture means always totaly handmade?
A lot of "cousettes" worked a whole day and only "the première" saw the costumer..
Is this in use nowadays ???
Do you know how much would be sold an evening Dior dress of the years 50 ?
In Brussels we have the museum of lace and costumes , and they have a lot of old clothes . In their exhibition about the new look wich take place until december 2009,
in the dress is written with a pencil the name of this unique dress. The museum have haute couture models worn only by a mannequin . May Dior or others sell a haute couture dress that have been worn already by a model before???
(Please excuse my bad english , I did a long way with my car and people were so nervous because we have a 4-days free WE, and I am tired..)

 

[vincent]

Maria olivia,

Let's first apologize, because this is not exactly the topic of this forum, but i will try to answer your questions.

"Haute couture" definitely means totally handmade. Actually "haute couture" is a name which is legally protected. It belongs to the "chambre syndicale de la haute couture" in Paris.

The list of members is very restricted and one can enter this list only if one satifies during many years to a list of conditions, which are :
-Handmade work, even for the embroideries, feathers and so on...
-A specific number of employees (no less than ....)
-Presentation every year of a specific number of dresses
-Participation every year to the two défilé of "haute couture" january and june...

You don't have to french to be a member but you have to respect theses rules.

At the moment there are 11 members (chanel, lacroix, Christian Dior, Gaultier and so on...), 4 associate foreigners members and 13 guests. The guest are "on trial", they are supposed to become permanent members after a few years.

In addition there are some "maisons" which specialised in specific activities related to haute couture, like embroidery for Lesage who is the most famous, and of course the fabric makers... Them too, have to respect specific rules, handmade work beeing the most important.

The shows are organized twice a year,mainly to show the tendance of the season. When a dress is chosen by a cliente, it is then made to her size, taste and sometimes even colour. It needs at least two or three fittings.

There are between 4 and 500 women in the world who can afford these dresses and they travel to Paris twice year for the shows and then for the fittings. The price of the dresses, depending on the hours of work, the fabrics, the details varies between 50 000 euros to 100 000 euros... Haute couture is very rarely a profitable activity for a house, but it is the laboratory of "fashion" in France.

The trends beeing set during the défilés are usually reused every year in the "prêt à porter" collections which are made in factorie's even if they are sometimes sold with a fitting.

All this is still in use and this is what makes a dress unique and so beautifully made. Behind some dresses there are 1000 of hours of work of cousettes which have an incredible savoir-faire.

A few years ago you, there was an exhibition in Brussels of princess lilian's haute couture dresses; And if you check the images you will see that for prince Philippe's wedding , princesse esmeralda was wearing a strawberry ensemble that was one of her mother's haute couture dress made more than forty years before, it was absolutely perfect.

The only princess i know who wear haute couture theses days would be marie chantal of greece. To give you an example, the duchess of Castro pink ensemble at prince jean duke of vendôme's wedding was not everyone's taste, but i can tell you, having seen it from very close, that the details, the fabric, the lace, the embroideries were absolutely perfect. It was definitely haute couture. And i would say, pure guess, that princess Philomena's dress on her civil wedding was more haute couture, than the dress she wore on her religious wedding.

Sorry for beeing so long but haute couture is something very specific and i tried to explain. It is a bit like real and cultured pearls. And to give you a last example.
A "prêt à porter " dress is usually sold as it is on the size of the woman who buys it and she has to look her best with it. A "haute couture" dress will be made on the precise mesures of the woman who is going to wear it, litterally on her body, the whole purpose of the couturier, the premières d'ateliers, the "plisseuses" the cousettes is to make the dress in order that it makes the cliente look her best.
If her arms are a bit too big, the fabric on the sleeves will be reduced to it's minimum, in order to make them look smaller... and so on...

All the lucky clientes say they are "addicted" to haute couture; And last, but not least, it is a perfectly "clean " businness. A haute couture dress can not be made with fabrics made by exploited children in sordid factories...

All the best as usual