HI&RH Archduke Imre of Austria & Miss Kathleen Walker: 8 September 2012


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Bride and groom are both 26. Archduke Imre was born on 8 December 1985; Kathleen I think was born in 1986.
 
Kit said:
karl does not use the title but he accepts if he is adressed as AD in private circles. That is the difference between the main branch of the Habsburgs and the minor branches such as the Belgian one or Imre's family who DONT actually live in Austria.
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The legal surname of the Belgian branch is "de Habsbourg-Lorraine" and they use/are accorded the Archduke/Archduchess socially. There seems to be no difference between the branches, regardless of where they live.

P.S. - ALL CAPS typically indicates that the author is SHOUTING. Which, surely, there is no need for here. ;)
 
royalcello said:
I think it's also worth noting that the couple received an official Apostolic Blessing from Pope Benedict XVI that identifies the groom as "Archduke Imre of Austria." Recognition doesn't get much higher than that!

Photojournalistic Wedding Photography in Virginia, MD, DC and WV | Spiering Photography: Archduke Imre and Archduchess Kathleen | Washington DC Wedding Photography
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Thanks for the quality photos of the ceremony!
I am not keen on Archduchess Kathleen's blue eye shadows. Ruching in combination with a lace top and a puffy skirt overloaded the ensemble. The veil, on the other hand, was lovely.
 
No I wasn't shouting just pointing out. And there is a difference between the main branch and the minor branches. The main branch under Otto accepted the Republic constitution he gave up his claim to the throne and renounced his title in 1961. His younger brothers Felix and Carl Ludwig never did that and therefore they were not allowed to enter Austria until a few years ago they got a special permission. Otto had the right to be in Austria since 1961 and so has his family. His brothers never accepted the loss of their titles and used them until their death. The same can be said about the majority of their children. There has always been some sort of dispute between Otto and his brothers regarding his decision to accept the Republic and to give up his title and his claim to the throne. the Habsburg branches don't get along that well generally speaking. One can say that Otto's children are more liberal than some of their cousins. Karls position as head of the house is heavily disputed. And there is a difference between actually using the title and or just letting himself being adressed by certain groups privately with the title but otherwise not using it oneself.
 
royalcello said:
I think it's also worth noting that the couple received an official Apostolic Blessing from Pope Benedict XVI that identifies the groom as "Archduke Imre of Austria." Recognition doesn't get much higher than that!

Photojournalistic Wedding Photography in Virginia, MD, DC and WV | Spiering Photography: Archduke Imre and Archduchess Kathleen | Washington DC Wedding Photography
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Thanks for providing the link to these photos.

However considering that she is an American citizen and he is probably a Belgian one, I would say that recognition by the respective states would be more important in real life.

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Thanks to Kit for pointing out the differences between the Austrian lines & to others for bringing back common sense to this discussion. The Austrian state does not recognize any titles indeed, the only Habsburgs that are legally recognised AFAIK are Archduke Lorenz & descendents and Archduke Rudolf (1950-) who was incorporated into the Belgian nobility and became prince of Habsburg-Lotharingen with the prefix of Serene Highness (as was his son Carl-Christian).

Having that said,I do not see any harm in family members using their titles in a social context as is the case here (and as we are also doing on this forum btw). Whatever rocks their boat.

On a different note, I am not sure if Archduke Karl and Archduke Carl-Christian are having major disagreements, didn't Karl attend a ceremony at Sandhurst for one of the sons of Carl-Christian? But there seem to have been difficulties within the family indeed, considering most of the Habsburgs stayed away from the wedding of AD Karl. I am sure that AD Franscesca must have had a very hard time in this family. A pity that the marriage is said to be in troubles, the nay-sayers may be gloating in their self rightiousness. Fortunately they don't have an open rift, as is the case in so many other former reigning houses and which usually make them all seem petty and living on another planet.
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The speech of Archduke Carl-Christian seems a bit off to me. But maybe I am too sensitive in this matter. It doesn't seem that he is very pleased with the background of his daughter-in-law. Considering the Archduke always seemed a friendly man previously, it may not have been the point he wanted to make of course.
 
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Thanks for upcloser pictures, royalcello. Looks rather stiff.

Imre looks like Prince Louis of Luxembourg. Louis does not look like his siblings. And not a lot like his parents. But he looks like AD Imre. So one wonders who is the common ancestor they look like on the Lux side, or on some other line.
 
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Kit said:
@ royalcello it doesn't matter that you recognize their titles since YOU are not an Austrian citizen as so I won't even bother to comment upon this nonsense regarding Austrian governments. Suffice it to say it is certainly better than some US governments. The main branch of the Habsburgs respects the Austrian constitution and does NOT use the title OTTO gave up his title and his claim to the throne in 1961 as did all the family members living in Austria at the time. Karl as head of the family just uses the name Karl Habsburg-Lothringen so if he accepts the Austrian Republic who are YOU to disagree with him ???
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Both Otto and Regina where referred at their respective funerals as Erzherzog/Erzherzogin von Österreich with Kaiserliche and Königliche Hoheit. I got copies from the funeral Programms. So the Title is also used in this branch.
 
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Yes that is true I was at the funeral last year myself. The family was allowed to use the title at Otto's funeral out of courtesy for him. A permission was granted at the time by the Austrian president and even the old Kaiser-Hymn was sung though not by the government. The reason for this was because Otto was born as Archduke in 1912 when the monarchy was still intact. But this was only out of respect for the outstanding human being he was and his political achievements. His children do not use the title in Austria ( and to be honest there is no need to the name Habsburg-Lothringen is more than enough) and he himself did not use it after 1961.
 
Mariel1 said:
Imre looks like Prince Louis of Luxembourg. Louis does not look like his siblings. And not a lot like his parents. But he looks like AD Imre. So one wonders who is the common ancestor they look like on the Lux side, or on some other line.
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Maybe there are similarities to prince Carl Bernadotte, the brother of queen Astrid of Belgium, she was the great-grandmother of Imre and Louis. Prince Carl Bernadotte - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Thank you for the link, Meraude. I surely agree, there is a look there, mostly like Prince Louis and a little like Imre. I remember the story of Queen Astrid of Belgium. What a saga that family has had!
 
I recall the Austrain media being very careful to refer to him as Dr Otto Habsburg during the funeral, not Archduke and not even Dr Otto Von Habsburg. When Karl was interviewed on TV it was as Karl Habsburg, again not as Archduke and not as Karl Von Habsburg.
 
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Marengo said:
The speech of Archduke Carl-Christian seems a bit off to me. But maybe I am too sensitive in this matter. It doesn't seem that he is very pleased with the background of his daughter-in-law. Considering the Archduke always seemed a friendly man previously, it may not have been the point he wanted to make of course.
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I also heard the speech and I have the completely opposite opinion of it. He seemed very happy and was very gracious in his comments. It was far better than most of the wedding speeches that I have heard.
 
With the exception of the blue-blooded guests and the lace (veil and illusion neckline to keep things modest), this felt like a low-key, but slightly flashy (stretch Hummer), Middle America wedding and rather than a royal one. The Walkers are certainly not the Millers or Thyssens or even Middletons when it comes to wealth and wouldn't be able to throw a full-blown royal wedding. On the other hand, I think Imre and Kathleen probably wanted it that way, considering his sister Marie-Christine had a very "royal" wedding in Belgian inside a old cathedral with reigning monarchs.
Although, their style of a "royal" wedding was not completely without precedent; it reminds me of Tessy and Louis's wedding (no tiara, off-the-rack gown) although I wonder what Kathleen's opinion of Louis and Tessy's baby out-of-wedlock and subsequent marriage.
Kathleen's gown reminded me most of Lady Frederick Windsor's (nee Sophie Winkleman) gown. They were both off-the-rack, and unfortunately, slightly cheap-looking, pouffy ball gowns with ill-matching lace cover-ups in a speedy attempt to cover up a strapless neckline.
For us royal watchers, it's a bit of a letdown not seeing tiaras or major royals, but the it seemed like it was the way the couple wanted it and they looked very happy.
 
The wedding was in a very small church in Chinatown in DC (although there are now very few Chinese living in Chinatown, and the number of Chinese restaurants is down to a dozen or so). There were members of two reigning royal families present for the wedding (close family members) .. had one or two heads of state come (such as Uncle Henri), there have been extra costs for security and getting the Secret Service involved. (Secret Service does heads of state/heads of government, and State dept does others. - for example. The Queen and Philip get Secret Service if they are together, but Philip alone or Charles or others would only get State dept. The church was across the street from an Irish Pub (fantastic bathroom) and a closed Quiznos. I used to work 2 blocks away and I guess the Quiznos closed after I changed jobs!) I definitely think his parents paid for a good portion of the wedding. I also think the gown was originall strapless but she did get to wear the Habsburg veil. I also think the bridesmaids and flower girls should have worn nicer shoes - matching - ballet shoes for the little girls, for example. They certainly could not have had a horse in carriage in DC ... traffic was a mess and the red line was closed for the entire weekend. The bridal attendants arrived in the Hummer after the bride (traffic) as no one was entitled to a police escort. All of the attendants and the bride and groom left in the hummer. The did apply for the parking in front of church for wedding permits. I think a tiara would have been out of place in an American church. I did find it a bit weird to have the Kaiserhyme sung (and people stand) in full view of the American flag ... for non-Americans, churches usually have an American flag in the sanctuary or near the santuary.) They did marry in the church where they met
 
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:previous:
Thanks for sharing the details!
I wonder what the Habsburg veil is. Has Archduke Imre's mother brought for her daughter-in-law to wear?
 
EmpressRouge said:
With the exception of the blue-blooded guests and the lace (veil and illusion neckline to keep things modest), this felt like a low-key, but slightly flashy (stretch Hummer), Middle America wedding and rather than a royal one. The Walkers are certainly not the Millers or Thyssens or even Middletons when it comes to wealth and wouldn't be able to throw a full-blown royal wedding. On the other hand, I think Imre and Kathleen probably wanted it that way, considering his sister Marie-Christine had a very "royal" wedding in Belgian inside a old cathedral with reigning monarchs.
Although, their style of a "royal" wedding was not completely without precedent; it reminds me of Tessy and Louis's wedding (no tiara, off-the-rack gown) although I wonder what Kathleen's opinion of Louis and Tessy's baby out-of-wedlock and subsequent marriage.
Kathleen's gown reminded me most of Lady Frederick Windsor's (nee Sophie Winkleman) gown. They were both off-the-rack, and unfortunately, slightly cheap-looking, pouffy ball gowns with ill-matching lace cover-ups in a speedy attempt to cover up a strapless neckline.
For us royal watchers, it's a bit of a letdown not seeing tiaras or major royals, but the it seemed like it was the way the couple wanted it and they looked very happy.
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my thoughts exactly on the gown and the hummer. i thought the whole thing as rather tacky. the gown certainly had a cheap-looking, prom-like feel to it.

i also wonder what imre and (particularly) katie think of louis and tessy. louis was at the wedding but it strikes me that tessy didn't attend...

on the other hand i think they looked happy. only time will tell i guess... i just wonder what katie's rather opinionated self will aclimatise to a rather conservative european family atmosphere. at the same time, the whole europe being very liberal, i wonder how her views will go down on her peers. it's in europe slightly uncommon to have groups publicising their religious views or even proabortion opinions in public. i get the impression people are more reserved with these matters.


Benjamin said:
What a shame.
It was still visible to the public when I posted it!
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that is a shame, i would have loved to hear the father congratulating the couple! what did the video look like?
 
NGalitzine said:
I recall the Austrain media being very careful to refer to him as Dr Otto Habsburg during the funeral, not Archduke and not even Dr Otto Von Habsburg. When Karl was interviewed on TV it was as Karl Habsburg, again not as Archduke and not as Karl Von Habsburg.
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Yes exactly. The media just refered to him as Dr. Otto Habsburg just as Karl is adressed as Karl Habsburg. The additional "von" doesn't exist in Austria since 1919, only in Germany! Therefore Otto who was living in Bavaria until his death used the name "Otto von Habsburg" in Germany but had to call himself "Otto Habsburg" in Austria. Karl is living in Austria with his family and his children also just go by the surname Habsburg-Lothring on their birth certificates. There is not a single reference to the title AD or "of Austria" on them. No me As I mentioned a special permission was needed by the Austrian President to adress Otto openly as AD during the funeral and on the programme. It was granted but only because he was born as an AD and because of recognition of his political achievements within the European Parliament. He was an outstanding human being of that there has never been a single doubt.
 
The de Nassau cousins were there, and Marie Gabrielle was born before Prince Jean and Helene married.

A very expensive gown can look tacky, but then my wedding gown was not expensive. It was in a clearance rack at a boutique - and it cost me $90 (waaaaaaaay reduced) and I told people my gown was made in Paris ... that's in France ..but of course, I was marrying a Koenig :) and, yes, my gown was made in Paris, France!
 
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In Germany, titles became a part of the surname - and when you succeed as the furst or Herzog, you change your surname to reflect and the distaff members of the family do use the feminine for the surname - such as Prinzesson von Bayern. Even in governmental circles, German royals are addressed by their "style and title" on occasion.

Kit said:
Yes exactly. The media just refered to him as Dr. Otto Habsburg just as Karl is adressed as Karl Habsburg. The additional "von" doesn't exist in Austria since 1919, only in Germany! Therefore Otto who was living in Bavaria until his death used the name "Otto von Habsburg" in Germany but had to call himself "Otto Habsburg" in Austria. Karl is living in Austria with his family and his children also just go by the surname Habsburg-Lothring on their birth certificates. There is not a single reference to the title AD or "of Austria" on them. No me As I mentioned a special permission was needed by the Austrian President to adress Otto openly as AD during the funeral and on the programme. It was granted but only because he was born as an AD and because of recognition of his political achievements within the European Parliament. He was an outstanding human being of that there has never been a single doubt.
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Marie Christine wore it when she got married - as did Catharina when she married count Secco d' aragona

Al_bina said:
:previous:
Thanks for sharing the details!
I wonder what the Habsburg veil is. Has Archduke Imre's mother brought for her daughter-in-law to wear?
Click to expand...
 
MarleneKoenig said:
In Germany, titles became a part of the surname - and when you succeed as the furst or Herzog, you change your surname to reflect and the distaff members of the family do use the feminine for the surname - such as Prinzesson von Bayern. Even in governmental circles, German royals are addressed by their "style and title" on occasion.
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Exactly but that is not the case in Austria. Titles here are not a part of the name and since 1919 the use of them is forbidden. So for example a member of the house Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn is not allowed to use his/her princely title as part of the name in Austria. For example Marianne Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn would be a Princess in the Habsburg monarchy and if still existent would be Princess Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn. Since titles and the use of them are abolished she is just Marianne Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn in Austria whereas in Germany she has the right to call herself Marianne Princess of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn. Her eldest son who is currently Head of the House and lives in Germany calls himself Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn. His siblings and his mother who live in Austria are not allowed to do that.
 
I am well aware of this ...
Kit said:
Exactly but that is not the case in Austria. Titles here are not a part of the name and since 1919 the use of them is forbidden. So for example a member of the house Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn is not allowed to use his/her princely title as part of the name in Austria. For example Marianne Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn would be a Princess in the Habsburg monarchy and if still existent would be Princess Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn. Since titles and the use of them are abolished she is just Marianne Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn in Austria whereas in Germany she has the right to call herself Marianne Princess of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn. Her eldest son who is currently Head of the House and lives in Germany calls himself Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn. His siblings and his mother who live in Austria are not allowed to do that.
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I wonder if Kathleen has eased off making public opinion of her views since the engagement out of respect for her new in-laws? On the other hand, she and Imre did publish that "article" (I use quotes because it was more of an essay, not a scholarly work), so it might rubbing off the other way. Most of us had never heard of her before the engagement and it was only after the announcement that people started digging up her past blog posts, interviews on FoxNews, etc. Did she make any media appearances/statements after the engagement? Considering how active she was in the American media circuit, it seemed ironic that her wedding was so low-key.
 
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MarleneKoenig said:
Marie Christine wore it when she got married - as did Catharina when she married count Secco d' aragona
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It has been kind of you to answer. It was a nice touch to observe traditions in the family.
 
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Believe it or not, this is the very first time I have noticed that the bride's veil was a different color than her gown.....!!
 
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