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  #41  
Old 07-22-2006, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily
What is the difference between a Marquise and a Countess? Are they comparable?
They're both aristocratic titles, but marquise is higher in ranking than countess. BTW I don't know why the word 'marquise' is used, it's French, isn't marchioness the English term?

From "low" to "high" the aristocratic titles that in exist in Belgium for women are:

jonkvrouw (~ lady) (what Elisabeth was before Mathilde became a royal princess)
baroness
viscountess
countess (she became a countess after Mathilde's marriage, King Albert II gave Mathilde's family a higher title)
marchioness (what she is now through marriage)
duchess
princess (not the same as royal princess)

There are very few Belgian families who carry the title of marquis, but Alfonso's family is Italian of course, not Belgian.
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  #42  
Old 07-22-2006, 02:54 PM
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Thank you for that. I wondered if in some countries there were different "noble" titles than in others -- not thinking that Marquise would be the same as a Marchioness. She has jumped up in rank quite a bit!

Also -- that first picture gorgeous. I have to go out for a few hours, darn, but will look forward to seeing more later!
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  #43  
Old 07-22-2006, 03:00 PM
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Claire wore a white and red flowered skirt and a red top.

A second small pic from la libre Belgique: husband and wife, beside and behind them are Armand De Decker and his wife.
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  #44  
Old 07-22-2006, 03:09 PM
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And the vtm-niews are online too.
http://www.vtm.be/nieuws/index_bekijkonline.htm
click on Zaterdag 22/07 19u, the clip begins around 13:40 min runtime
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  #45  
Old 07-22-2006, 03:20 PM
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I´ve watched the vtm news.
The dress seemed fabulous, I think it is one of the best we have seen.
It looked like a very happy and lovely wedding....

Congratulations....
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Has somebody recorded the christening of Ingrid Alexandra?It was so nice to see all of them together as a happy family...
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  #46  
Old 07-22-2006, 03:26 PM
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Not from today, but still nice to see…(Belga)


Mathilde´s brother Charles-Henri


Mathilde, Philippe and Fabiola (7sur7.be)
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  #47  
Old 07-22-2006, 04:00 PM
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Hey, that's the same dress Mathilde was wearing while visiting the museum in Luxemburg at the celebrations of Henri and Maria-Teresa's wedding anniversairy! Lovely. I hope we'll get some close-ups of the hat/headpiece. And of the bride of course, it looks like she is wearing a very beautiful veil with lace. I always love lace! :)
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  #48  
Old 07-22-2006, 04:06 PM
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I was not familiar with this group, thanks for the pictures! I have to say she has an incredible smile.
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  #49  
Old 07-22-2006, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannelore
I just saw them on tv, Elisabeth was beeaauutifull!!! :) Her dress was designed by Edouard Vermeulen of Natan: a cream dress with a lace bodice and a beautiful long veil, and a tiara!!!

Mathilde wore the fuchsia dress she already wore in Luxemburg, a bit too simple IMO. A hairpiece in the shape of a flower in the same colour. Other guests were more elegant, in the tradition of noble weddings: colourful elegant outfits and big hats.

Princess Elisabeth was a bridesmaid, she looked so cute!! she had flowers in her hair, that was tied together in a chignon. Gabriel was a pageboy in a blue shirt and white trousers.
I'm getting excited just reading your description Hannelore!

I cannot wait to see pictures of Elisabeth and Gabriel as a flower girl and page boy in their maternal aunt's wedding!

I thought Mathide's sheath dress was a bit simple, too, but her hat was beautiful with it and dressed up the simple dress a bit. The colour is beautiful on Mathilde in the least.
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  #50  
Old 07-22-2006, 04:55 PM
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My wish comes true as to Elisabeth. She was a bridesmaid :) and Gabriel was a pageboy. Thay looks cute. Gabriel was little shy. To many people for him.

All the best to newlywed!!!
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  #51  
Old 07-22-2006, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johann
And the vtm-niews are online too.
http://www.vtm.be/nieuws/index_bekijkonline.htm
click on Zaterdag 22/07 19u, the clip begins around 13:40 min runtime
Sooooo wonderful, thank you for the link! :)

What a bride, too! I've always thought the D'Udekem girls posessed a very special charisma, this footage underlines my perception once again.

The bridal gown looked lovely, a design very current in terms of fashion, I've seen other recent brides (one is a well known news woman in the States, Campbell Brown) with identical looking dresses: a white strapless design with a lace sleevless bodice over it. Great design, a bit ubiquitous seemingly currently, but, I guess, who cares, it's not like there are endless possibilities for traditional bridal gowns, and it looked fantastic on the bride.

Q about the groom: he's 42, is this his first marriage?
Has he ad relationships before? <She> has, she was engaged to a prince of Orleans. (the d'udekem girls don't aim low, do they!

All in all a lovely looking wedding, a very good lookingfamily (the bride's, that is. Not too impressed with the groom's in that sense)
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  #52  
Old 07-22-2006, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by princess olga
Sooooo wonderful, thank you for the link! :)

Q about the groom: he's 42, is this his first marriage?
Has he ad relationships before? <She> has, she was engaged to a prince of Orleans. (the d'udekem girls don't aim low, do they!
This is his first marriage.
About his family:His from Austro-Hungarian branch of the Pallavicini.
K1. Margravio Carlo Alessandro (* Budapest 12-4-1923 + Milano 21-7-2004), Patrizio Genovese. = Lanzago di Silea 22-5-1963 Nobile Avogara Azzoni Avogadro, figlia del Conte Alteniero Signore di Stigliano, Noale, Briana e Trebaseleghe e terre annesse, Nobile di Belluno, e di Emma dei Conti Ninni (* Venezia 23-3-1926).
L1. Margravio Alfonso (* Treviso 4-7-1964), Patrizio Genovese.
= fidanzato nel gennaio 2006 con Elisabetta d'Udekem d'Acoz figlia del Conte Patrick e della Contessa Anna Komorowska (* Uccle 17-01-1977).
http://www.sardimpex.com/pallavicini/Pallavicini06.htm
Something aout his career: "Alfonso Pallavicini is appointed Head of Coverage and Territories Europe (CTE).Alfonso Pallavicini, 41 years (Wirtschaftsuniversität Vienna 87, Universitŕ degli Studi Venezia 88), joined the Group BNP Paribas in 1992. Successively Head of the Banking Sector and of Financial Institutions (FIG) within the Corporate Finance Department, he was, since June 2004, Head of Corporate Group within CTE."
http://www.bnpparibas.com/en/news/pr...&TriArc=&Count=

I don't remember if she was engaged to a prince Charles-Philippe d'Orleans but they frequently spotted together on parties like charity First Royal Ball in Ukraine, January 13, 2003 or Bal de la Rosa 2001.
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  #53  
Old 07-22-2006, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily
What is the difference between a Marquise and a Countess? Are they comparable?
In the Benelux countries you have untitled and titled nobility.

Untitled nobles do have the right to use the predicate Jonkheer (Sir)/ Jonkvrouwe (Dame).

When the nobility of the family predates 1815 or when it is a titled family in which only the firstborn gets the title, Lord or Lady might be more appropriate. Don't be misled by the word 'untitled' because some of these families really are of ancient nobility and do have a dazzling ancestry.


Titled nobility can have the titles:

Ridder/Jonkvrouw Chevalier/Dame
Baron/Barones Baron/Baronne
Burggraaf/Burggravin Vicomte/Vicomtesse
Graaf/Gravin Comte/Comtesse
Markies/Markiezin Marquis/Marquise
Hertog/Hertogin Duc/Duchesse
Prins/Prinses Prince/Princesse

In my country (the Netherlands) you can obtain nobility by recognition, by incorporation and by elevation.

Recognition
You belong to an old noble family which did exist in the then Netherlands before 1795. For an example with an Adelsdiploma given by a German Fürst or so. A recognition means that the Queen will, by Royal Decree, recognize your old rights and you will be enlisted into the Netherlands Nobility. (The d'Udekem d'Acoz family was recognized in 1816 by King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand Duke of Luxembourg as being an ancient noble family. He bestowed the baronial rank, hereditary for the firstborn sons only).

Incorporation
You belong to foreign nobility and wants to be part of the Netherlands nobility. This is only possible with having (or obtaining) the Dutch citizenship. For an example: Queen Beatrix recognized the nobility of the naturalized Hungarians Miklós Kálmán Kennesey de Kenese and Tihamér József László von Ghyczy. They were given the right to use the hereditary predicate jonkheer/jonkvrouwe, their arms were recognized and they were enlisted into the Netherlands Nobility.

Elevation
You are 'elevated' into the nobility. This means that new nobility is created. Since 1999 this can only happen for members of the Royal House. This means that in the Netherlands practically no new nobility will be created (which was standing practice for some 50 years).

In 2002 miss Máxima Zorreguieta Cerruti was created a Princess in her own right, with her own arms and her own personal standard. She is no Princess en titre courteoisie like Laurentien or Mabel. But she was not enlisted to the Netherlands Nobility because the Royal House is its own sort.
In 2004 Prince Friso left the Royal House upon his marriage with miss Mabel Wisse Smit. He was elevated into the Netherlands nobility indeed with the hereditary title of Count(ess). That was the last real new creation into the nobility so far. Prince Friso, Countess Luana, Countess Zaira, Countess Eloďse, Count Claus-Casimir and Countess Leonore will all belong to the new countly dynasty Van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg.
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  #54  
Old 07-22-2006, 08:49 PM
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Thank you henri m. That is a very helpful description. It has left me wondering, though, how a person becomes noble in the first place? Would this be, for example, descendants of royalty? or is someone from medieval times who had a distinguished military career and was ennobled by a monarch? A major landowner? A highly successful entrepreneur? -- all of whom were ennobled by a monarch? Also, once a family is ennobled, are all descendants nobles? or does it follow primogeniture? Thanks for any help.
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  #55  
Old 07-22-2006, 09:11 PM
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To avoid a misunderstanding about the d'Udekem d'Acoz family. They were not 'untitled' nobility when the King bestowed the countly rank on them in 1999.

The family is of ancient nobility and in 1816 King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand Duke of Luxembourg (present day Belgium was part of the Netherlands in that era) recognized their nobility.The King bestowed the baronial rank on the dynasty d'Udekem d'Acoz, but the actual title of Baron could only be used by the firstborn son.

Princess Mathilde's father was not a firstborn son, so he had no right on the title. His elder brother was the actual Baron d'Udekem d'Acoz. In 1999 the King not only promoted the eldest brother, the Baron, to Count. It had pleased His Majesty to bestow the same rank on Princess Mathilde's father as well (and via him also his children). The title is -as all noble titles- hereditary in the male lineage only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily
Thank you henri m. That is a very helpful description. It has left me wondering, though, how a person becomes noble in the first place? Would this be, for example, descendants of royalty? or is someone from medieval times who had a distinguished military career and was ennobled by a monarch? A major landowner? A highly successful entrepreneur? -- all of whom were ennobled by a monarch? Also, once a family is ennobled, are all descendants nobles? or does it follow primogeniture? Thanks for any help.
In the Netherlands it were mainly old landowner families on the countryside, former knights (warlords) who fought bravely and were rewarded with goods and lord's rights. But later (around 1815) lots of the 'patriciate' (the awesomely rich merchants, bankers, shipowners, plantation-owners, etc. residing in their city's palaces) were 'promoted' to the Nobility as well. In reality many of these rich-as-Midas families already married with the Nobility in the 17th C. It was a win-win situation: the patriciate delivered fresh money and the nobility delivered status.
:)
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  #56  
Old 07-22-2006, 09:49 PM
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Many thanks again henri m. for this information. "Nobility" is something I only come into contact with very rarely, as an American, so I don't quite have a handle on how being a member of the nobility plays out in everyday life. But, titled or not, that pecking order always manages to insert itself into any society!

And Rominet09 -- I don't know where all the pictures are! I have been so wanting to see them. I checked belga and corbis a little while ago and couldn't find anything. Do you suppose it takes longer on weekends? That's what I have been wondering.
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  #57  
Old 07-22-2006, 09:50 PM
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Henri M, I've never seen Belgium and the Netherlands' nobility explained so well! You should write a book about it :)
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  #58  
Old 07-22-2006, 11:29 PM
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Yes thank you Henri. I have little understanding of the nobility ranks in the Low Countries so this is very helpful.

Beautiful photos of the couple at their two ceremonies. I too would love to see Princess Elizabeth and Prince Gabriel in their wedding costumes.
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  #59  
Old 07-23-2006, 03:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
In the Benelux countries you have untitled and titled nobility.




Ridder/Jonkvrouw Chevalier/Dame

The title Jonkvrouw has no equivalent/translation in French, so it should be chevalier/madame.



In my country (the Netherlands) you can obtain nobility by recognition, by incorporation and by elevation.

Recognition
You belong to an old noble family which did exist in the then Netherlands before 1795. For an example with an Adelsdiploma given by a German Fürst or so. A recognition means that the Queen will, by Royal Decree, recognize your old rights and you will be enlisted into the Netherlands Nobility. (The d'Udekem d'Acoz family was recognized in 1816 by King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand Duke of Luxembourg as being an ancient noble family. He bestowed the baronial rank, hereditary for the firstborn sons only).

Incorporation
You belong to foreign nobility and wants to be part of the Netherlands nobility. This is only possible with having (or obtaining) the Dutch citizenship. For an example: Queen Beatrix recognized the nobility of the naturalized Hungarians Miklós Kálmán Kennesey de Kenese and Tihamér József László von Ghyczy. They were given the right to use the hereditary predicate jonkheer/jonkvrouwe, their arms were recognized and they were enlisted into the Netherlands Nobility.

Elevation
You are 'elevated' into the nobility. This means that new nobility is created. Since 1999 this can only happen for members of the Royal House. This means that in the Netherlands practically no new nobility will be created (which was standing practice for some 50 years).

In 2002 miss Máxima Zorreguieta Cerruti was created a Princess in her own right, with her own arms and her own personal standard. She is no Princess en titre courteoisie like Laurentien or Mabel. But she was not enlisted to the Netherlands Nobility because the Royal House is its own sort.
In 2004 Prince Friso left the Royal House upon his marriage with miss Mabel Wisse Smit. He was elevated into the Netherlands nobility indeed with the hereditary title of Count(ess). That was the last real new creation into the nobility so far. Prince Friso, Countess Luana, Countess Zaira, Countess Eloďse, Count Claus-Casimir and Countess Leonore will all belong to the new countly dynasty Van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg
This has of course nothing to do with the d'Udekem or any other Belgian family. The Belgian aristocracy isn't the same as the Dutch or the French etc. although there exist strong ties of course.
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  #60  
Old 07-23-2006, 06:10 AM
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Une demoiselle est une fille noble.
(A demoiselle is a noble daughter).

An elder lady can be Dame, when she helds the fief, or is simply 'madame' in French indeed.

I asked this on a French board and they answered:

Jonkvrouw est un titre de noblesse qui se traduit en français par demoiselle.

See also the link to the Act of Marriage of Prince Philippe de Belgique et demoiselle Mathilde d'Udekem d'Acoz (in pdf):

http://www.just.fgov.be/mopdf/1999/12/17_3S.pdf

<22 = demoiselle
>27 = madame
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