Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[tsarskoe]

With regards to the court case:

"On 15 May 1961 it [The German Court] ruled that her [Anna Anderson's] claim was unfounded. It also threw out the counterclaim that Anna was in fact the missing Franziska Schanzkowska as 'irrelevant' although, in the judge's opinion, it was quite likely." The Quest for Anastasia by John Klier and Helen Mingay pg 139.


Thus well before the advent of DNA testing there appeared to be sufficient evidence to impress the judge that Anna was "quite likely" Franziska Schanzkowska.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by tsarskoe

With regards to the court case:

"On 15 May 1961 it [The German Court] ruled that her [Anna Anderson's] claim was unfounded. It also threw out the counterclaim that Anna was in fact the missing Franziska Schanzkowska as 'irrelevant' although, in the judge's opinion, it was quite likely." The Quest for Anastasia by John Klier and Helen Mingay pg 139.


Thus well before the advent of DNA testing there appeared to be sufficient evidence to impress the judge that Anna was "quite likely" Franziska Schanzkowska.

We are talking "opinion" here, not ruling. Apparently there was not sufficient evidence. Read also Judge Pagendarm's remarks.

[tsarskoe]

With regards to which newspaper AA had access to in Dalldorf. Her supporters always state she only had the Illustrated German newspaper from 1914 which contained a story about the Romanovs which was published well before the murders. Yet in the notes of Professor Bohnhoeffer who attended AA in the mid 1920's for three weeks (and who is often quoted by AA supporters to indicate that mental health professionals did not deem her insane) wrote on March, 16,1926:

" She remembers that a nurse brought her an illustrated newspaper containing an account of the imprisonment and murder of the Tsar's family" Anastasia: The Survivor of Ekaterinburg by Harriet Rathlef von Keilmann pg 230.

Yet AA had acted very shocked when she "discovered" from Harriet and others that things had been written about the murder. She acted as if she knew nothing of the press accounts of this, yet here we have proof that in the very early period following her suicide attempt in Feb 1920 she had access to information about not only the Romanovs but their deaths.

In addition Mrs. Rathelf von Keilmann wrote: "Professor Bohnhoeffer, at whose disposal the whole history of the illness at Dalldorf was placed, writes as follows:... 'For the most part, she [AA] had lain quietly in bed, occupying herself much with the reading of newspapers and books, had followed political events with interest, and had conversed about them." pg 225-226

This shows that she was an avid reader and had access to newspapers and books. Later when AA in the mid 1920's wrote a letter in which she spelled the word "Darling" as "Dar'ling" it became apparent that she had access to one of Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden's [A lady-in-waiting to Empress Alexandra] books which had a photograph of one of the Empress's letters where she wrote the word "Darling" but in the line above she had placed a comma which AA mistook for an apostrophe. Thus not only was she literate in German she was reading books and articles about the Romanovs.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by tsarskoe

With regards to which newspaper AA had access to in Dalldorf. Her supporters always state she only had the Illustrated German newspaper from 1914 which contained a story about the Romanovs which was published well before the murders. Yet in the notes of Professor Bohnhoeffer who attended AA in the mid 1920's for three weeks (and who is often quoted by AA supporters to indicate that mental health professionals did not deem her insane) wrote on March, 16,1926:

" She remembers that a nurse brought her an illustrated newspaper containing an account of the imprisonment and murder of the Tsar's family" Anastasia: The Survivor of Ekaterinburg by Harriet Rathlef von Keilmann pg 230.

Yet AA had acted very shocked when she "discovered" from Harriet and others that things had been written about the murder. She acted as if she knew nothing of the press accounts of this, yet here we have proof that in the very early period following her suicide attempt in Feb 1920 she had access to information about not only the Romanovs but their deaths.

She did not act shocked at the press accounts. She was shocked at the Sokolov investigation of which she knew nothing. She was shocked at hearing of Grand Duke Michael's death, and she still believed Ella to be alive.

In addition Mrs. Rathelf von Keilmann wrote: "Professor Bohnhoeffer, at whose disposal the whole history of the illness at Dalldorf was placed, writes as follows:... 'For the most part, she [AA] had lain quietly in bed, occupying herself much with the reading of newspapers and books, had followed political events with interest, and had conversed about them." pg 225-226

I have already posted about AA's interest in Russian political affairs. As for newspapers and books, all I know is that she was given books from the Dalldorf library by Nurse Malinovsky. Whether she read newspapers, is not known, she could not read German (fraktur).

This shows that she was an avid reader and had access to newspapers and books.

How avid she was, can probably be debated.

Later when AA in the mid 1920's wrote a letter in which she spelled the word "Darling" as "Dar'ling" it became apparent that she had access to one of Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden's [A lady-in-waiting to Empress Alexandra] books which had a photograph of one of the Empress's letters where she wrote the word "Darling" but in the line above she had placed a comma which AA mistook for an apostrophe. Thus not only was she literate in German she was reading books and articles about the Romanovs.

Or she had access to the Tsaritsa's letters in Tsarskoe Selo. This is another of Berenberg Gossler's red herrings. Buxhoeveden's book was published in 1928 in New York and London.

[ChatNoir]

As for the last night in Ekaterinburg, how did she know that the Grand Duchesses wore no coats and hats on the way to the execution room? How did she know that the jackets left behind had diamonds sewn in the buttons? How did she know that the Tsarevich could not walk, but was carried by the Tsar?
Just wondering....

[Menarue]

I have been reading all these posts with much interest with an occasional comment. For me there is absolute no doubt that neither AA or FS (if they weren´t one or the same person) could possibly be the Grand Duchess Anastasia (or any other Grand Duchess). DNA is one reason for my thinking this way.
As neither side is going to ever give in, I have a suggestion, there is a society which at least one of the two sides of reasoning should join.
Here is the link. The Flat Earth Society -- Home

BTW Chat I don´t think that anyone knowing of the terrible disease that the poor little Alexei suffered from would not have realised that he had to be carried everywhere, not only to the execution chamber but everywhere.

[ferrymansdaughter]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

I think you mentioned a list of things earlier, and if you go back and check my answer, you will find that all the things you said were not in Kurth's book, are indeed there.

AnnawasFranciszka, have you actually read Peter Kurth's book?

[ferrymansdaughter]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Of course there is a connection, Savich was the co-author of this book.

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Savitch's name is not on the book. He had nothing to do with the contents...

Um, actually it is, and he did..

(from the following website) CHAPITRE : Dictionnaire des titres des Livres, Page 50, Section 55

Livre : LA FAUSSE ANASTASIE
Auteur : GILLIARD (P.) ET SAVITCH (C.)
Editeur : Payot - Parution en 1929

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

I don't k now what this man may or may not have contributed to the book since I haven't read it all,.

Why am I not surprised?

[ferrymansdaughter]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

No, the newspapers in the 1920's were trying to expose her, the stories Berenberg-Gossler told of taking AA's side were 1955-1967. All different people and circumstances by then.

As I have already said, you tell us which papers and I will check out what they reported - or you can, it can all be done via the internet.

[ferrymansdaughter]

Originally Posted by Menarue

AnnawasF. Just a question. This is translated from the French. The unknown one is "inconnu" ? Just out of curiosity. Is that what they called the woman in all the writings? That shows really how they thought of her and is interesting. In fact all those writings you have posted are very interesting indeed.

Actually in the early days she seems to have been universally known as "The Unknown Woman of Berlin". It was used by both supporters and opponents.

[ferrymansdaughter]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

She also (and this is in Kurth's book) mentioned being sexually active with guards, but apparently dropped that when she thought it might make her look bad to aristocrats..

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

you know, bear, much as been speculated on this, but I'm not getting into the alleged 'rape on the Rus' theory. There is something in Kurth's book, don't have the page, where she claims to have had relations with the guards. (it was the line 'hot like others of his class'.

Actually as Chat has pointed out, she was referring to Tchaikowsky – and specifically after July 1918. You never do seem to have the page. Will you please provide us with the page number (and edition) showing where this is in Peter's book?

[ChatNoir]

Chat I don´t think that anyone knowing of the terrible disease that the poor little Alexei suffered from would not have realised that he had to be carried everywhere, not only to the execution chamber but everywhere.

You seem to forget that between attacks he was a playful little boy. But, as AA told Mrs. Rathlef, "there were certain things he was not allowed to do. Like riding a bicycle, for example. But he had a tricycle especially built for him." And I just discovered some photos on the net, clearly showing Alexei with his tricycle.

[OlgaNikolaievna]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Whether she read newspapers, is not known, she could not read German (fraktur).

Then please tell us what language she did read, or was she illiterate?

Buxhoeveden's book was published in 1928 in New York and London.

Are you sure, her second book Left Behind was published that year but I believe her earlier book on the Tsaritsa was sooner. Dehn and Vyrubova as well as Gilliard had all published books by 1923 and accounts of the last days of the family were available as early as 1920.

[OlgaNikolaievna]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

As for the last night in Ekaterinburg, how did she know that the Grand Duchesses wore no coats and hats on the way to the execution room? How did she know that the jackets left behind had diamonds sewn in the buttons? How did she know that the Tsarevich could not walk, but was carried by the Tsar?
Just wondering....

Who would have been there to know and tell if she was right or wrong? The bolsheviks? What is the proof those details occured? A book? Couldn't she have seen that same book?

[OlgaNikolaievna]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

We are talking "opinion" here, not ruling. Apparently there was not sufficient evidence. Read also Judge Pagendarm's remarks.

Don't you think it means quite a bit against Anderson if the judge who sat on the bench of the case and heard all the evidence on both sides himself believed her to be Franziska?

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by OlgaNikolaievna

Don't you think it means quite a bit against Anderson if the judge who sat on the bench of the case and heard all the evidence on both sides himself believed her to be Franziska?

And don't you think it means quite a bit for Anderson that Judge Pagendarm could just as well have ruled in her favor? As I said, we are talking opinions here, NOT ruling.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by OlgaNikolaievna

Who would have been there to know and tell if she was right or wrong? The bolsheviks? What is the proof those details occured? A book? Couldn't she have seen that same book?

Years after her stories about the IF and the court, the books came out. The Sokolov investigation, for example, was published in Germany in 1932, I think. And it was possible to verify her memories. As for the diamonds in the buttons of the jacket, I did not personally find that out until I read FOTR, where a Bolshvik witness tells how Sophie Buxhoeveden informed him where the jewelry was hidden.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by OlgaNikolaievna

Then please tell us what language she did read, or was she illiterate?

At Dalldorf she could read for sure. But only latin characters (and according to Schwabe, also Russian.) She could not read the German fraktur. After her brush with death at the Mommsen clinic, she had the biggest problems reading and writing, but it gradually came back as she improved physically.

Are you sure, her second book Left Behind was published that year but I believe her earlier book on the Tsaritsa was sooner. Dehn and Vyrubova as well as Gilliard had all published books by 1923 and accounts of the last days of the family were available as early as 1920.

I have the year from Peter Kurth's bibliography. And the books published by 1923, were these available in German? When were they published in Germany? To my knowledge, The last Days of the Romanovs was not published in Germany.