Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[AGRBear]

I believe Clara P. was, also, a patient at Dalldorf.

When trying to discover more about her, on AP we were told that Clara was often times a "snitch" for the local police. Now, why would anyone plant Clara in this asylum at this time? And, have you ever wondered why Clara declared AA was GD Tatiana instead of GD Anastasia? I believe the term Chat would use is that Clara part in all of this becomes "curiouser and curiouser".

AGRBear

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

If he chooses to post and answer I'm sure we'd all be interested in his comments.

As I've posted before, I am not accusing anyone of being a terrible person for not including things damaging to their case. No good lawyer would do that. I am only saying that is possibly why he didn't use them. It seems to me, after seeing only a one sided view of AA's story over the years that most of the people who write about it are supporters and naturally would choose their words based on what looked best for her.

I think you mentioned a list of things earlier, and if you go back and check my answer, you will find that all the things you said were not in Kurth's book, are indeed there.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

If he chooses to post and answer I'm sure we'd all be interested in his comments.

As I've posted before, I am not accusing anyone of being a terrible person for not including things damaging to their case. No good lawyer would do that. I am only saying that is possibly why he didn't use them. It seems to me, after seeing only a one sided view of AA's story over the years that most of the people who write about it are supporters and naturally would choose their words based on what looked best for her.

No, I'm not accusing you of anything like that. When I read that excerpt, it just didn't sound like something Peter would write. It sounded "off"--not like his normal writing. So I want to ask him about it.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

The main point here is, you don't have a shred of evidence to back it up.

Give me 'one shred of REAL evidence' that AA ever had a baby in Romania!

From Gleb Botkin's book:

That introduction always makes me ready for some fiction!

emphatically refused to defame the missing Francisca's character

THIS is why I mentioned the shame on the family first. It was such a disgrace, they wouldn't admit to it at all or any costs. It sounds silly now, but that's how people were back then. Also, it must be seriously considered that FS's family was not aware of her illegitimate pregnancy, since she would have been, as some girls are still today, too embarrassed or afraid to tell them. So again, having no proof of FS's baby means NOTHING. She had an exam that proved she'd been pregnant so we know she had.

And how do you know that they did not embellish those statements? I have given you examples of their characters already. As for von Kleist and Clara, I don't think any of them was proficient enough in French to read what they allegedly had written. I doubt any of them ever saw the book, it was not exactly a bestseller, you know.

All by Clara knew French. I don't think they'd have let their remarks be put in a book unless they saw it and approve it first, in whatever language. You are assuming they never saw the book. In addition to this, there are probably other sources of these things, like Berenberg-Gossler's collections. Massie partially quoted Irene and Sophie, and we know he used BG's papers.

As far as I can see, Kurth used only verifiable sources in his book.

This is what all AA supporters like to say, but really, most of what is in his book is just a bunch of hearsay and commentary with page numbers. We really can't prove who did or said what or if any of the things the people relay are accurate, mistakes, lies, etc.

Really, there is no need for us to go on discrediting each other's sources. Everything everyone said is just that, and can't be proven. The only hardcore proof we do have is the DNA.

Kurth's book include both Irene and Sophie's statements.

Small portions, with added comments to cast doubt on their value.

I cannot answer for Kurth, but I know that Rathlef opens her book with a copy of the letter from inspector Grünberg where he describes the flight from Russia. AA later repeated the same story to Harriet v. Rathlef.

So you're saying Grunberg is responsible for the final version of the escape story?

[AGRBear]

5 Dec. 1918 is an interesting date.

If indeed AA had a child in Dec. then do we know where she was nine months earlier? And with whom? This would have been May or April of 1918.

Surly AA could count back nine months and would have realized that GD Anastasia couldn't have become pregnant before 17 July 1918 so why would she have ever told anyone the date 5 Dec. 1918? All they had was her word about the child's birth.

The doctors' report tells us that they believe AA had a child and after this examination they changed the Miss to Mrs on her papers.

Who to believe? Since AA was claiming to be GD Anastasia, then one would think she'd have counted nine months or more after 17 July 1918 and had the child born in Rumania after April or May of 1919.

Slip of the tongue? I don't think she did because this date was extremely important to AA, who was claiming to be GD Anastasia.

AGRBear

[Anna was Franziska]

I think you mentioned a list of things earlier, and if you go back and check my answer, you will find that all the things you said were not in Kurth's book, are indeed there.

The face apparatus? The chased by thugs and thrown in the canal story? There was a pushed story, but not the same one told in Clara's letter.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by AGRBear

5 Dec. 1918 is an interesting date.

If indeed AA had a child in Dec. then do we know where she was nine months earlier? And with whom? This would have been May or April of 1918.

Surly AA could count back nine months and would have realized that GD Anastasia couldn't have become pregnant before 17 July 1918 so why would she have ever told anyone the date 5 Dec. 1918? All they had was her word about the child's birth.

As you know, bear, much as been speculated on this, but I'm not getting into the alleged 'rape on the Rus' theory. There is something in Kurth's book, don't have the page, where she claims to have had relations with the guards. (it was the line 'hot like others of his class')

There is an outside chance that that is the actual birthdate of FS's baby and that's why she said it. But really I think somebody made it up not thinking of the timeline first, just as they didn't consider how long a trip by cart would have taken under the conditions they described. A lot longer than the dates given by the inventors of the story!

The doctors' report tells us that they believe AA had a child and after this examination they changed the Miss to Mrs on her papers.

Yet there is no proof of AA or FS having a birth, but this doesn't mean anything for those days.

Who to believe?

AGRBear

We know AA wasn't in Russia or Romania, so that rules a lot out.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska;796288[quote

Give me 'one shred of REAL evidence' that AA ever had a baby in Romania!

The medical reports show her as having had a baby.

That introduction always makes me ready for some fiction!

And why do you think he is lying? You should be prepared to back up that statement.

THIS is why I mentioned the shame on the family first. It was such a disgrace, they wouldn't admit to it at all or any costs. It sounds silly now, but that's how people were back then. Also, it must be seriously considered that FS's family was not aware of her illegitimate pregnancy, since she would have been, as some girls are still today, too embarrassed or afraid to tell them. So again, having no proof of FS's baby means NOTHING. She had an exam that proved she'd been pregnant so we know she had.

Wrong. FS had a medical exam at the AEG, and there was no word about her ever having been pregnant. And the Wingenders offered no evidence to the fact. You have no legs to stand on here.
(But in spite of the shame, you still wanted AA to go to the queen of Rumania in her "condition".)

All by Clara knew French. I don't think they'd have let their remarks be put in a book unless they saw it and approve it first, in whatever language.

I don't think the Messr. Gilliard and Savitch let anybody approve anything.

You are assuming they never saw the book. In addition to this, there are probably other sources of these things, like Berenberg-Gossler's collections. Massie partially quoted Irene and Sophie, and we know he used BG's papers.

Irene's statement is in Kurth's book. With the following footnote:"
To say that there is some question about the extent of Irene's "firm conviction" that A was not her niece is an understatement. Lori von Oertzen, the lady-in-waiting who had accompanied Irene to Funkenmühle, later testified that Irene had practically begged AA to return with her to Hemmelmark, where, presumably, she hoped to resolve her doubts. (see testimony of Eleonore von Oertzen, September 16, 1958, Hamburg). Later on in the decade, Irene was deeply anxious to know what other family members thought about AA, she "might have made a mistake and that it probably (was) Anastasia (see letter of Grand Duke Andrew to Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna. February 10, 1955, Hamburg)

This is what all AA supporters like to say, but really, most of what is in his book is just a bunch of hearsay and commentary with page numbers.

Careful now, there is something called libel!

We really can't prove who did or said what or if any of the things the people relay are accurate, mistakes, lies, etc.

Kurth's book has footnotes to back up almost every little detail.

Really, there is no need for us to go on discrediting each other's sources.

Yes, there is indeed a need for that.

Everything everyone said is just that, and can't be proven. The only hardcore proof we do have is the DNA.

Which we know has made no legal difference in the case.

Small portions, with added comments to cast doubt on their value.

And what is wrong with seeing both sides of the coin?

So you're saying Grunberg is responsible for the final version of the escape story?

What I am saying, is that Grünberg's version and the later Rathlef Keilmann version are the same. Maybe apart from a few insignificant details.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

As you know, bear, much as been speculated on this, but I'm not getting into the alleged 'rape on the Rus' theory. There is something in Kurth's book, don't have the page, where she claims to have had relations with the guards. (it was the line 'hot like others of his class')

According to AA, there was no rape on the Rus, she just told that they could not lock their doors from the inside, and that it was "pure tyranny."
As for "hot like others of his class", she was referring to Alexander Chaikovsky.

There is an outside chance that that is the actual birthdate of FS's baby and that's why she said it. But really I think somebody made it up not thinking of the timeline first, just as they didn't consider how long a trip by cart would have taken under the conditions they described. A lot longer than the dates given by the inventors of the story!

You seem to forget that they had a horse.

Yet there is no proof of AA or FS having a birth, but this doesn't mean anything for those days.

Again: AA was proven to have had a child, FS was not.

We know AA wasn't in Russia or Romania, so that rules a lot out.

And how do you know that?

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

The face apparatus? The chased by thugs and thrown in the canal story? There was a pushed story, but not the same one told in Clara's letter.

All these things are unsubstantiated allegations from Gilliard's book, for which he had no documented support. Burned, you know.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

All these things are unsubstantiated allegations from Gilliard's book, for which he had no documented support. Burned, you know.

Not made up for Gilliard's book, statements by other people. Clara's letter was sent to Irene, surely Barbara Mecklenberg and her lawyer BG had a copy.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

You seem to forget that they had a horse.

There are so many versions, sometimes there is a horse, sometimes there's not. Even with a horse, in an old cart, on muddy, unimproved roads, in some places no roads at all, (remember they had to avoid towns in fear of being seen!) large mountains and rivers to cross, and early, harsh Russian winter to deal with, nope, it would have taken them much longer if ever. And don't forget carrying a passenger bleeding to death with no medical care! The infection would have killed her if the wounds didn't. Where did they eat? There's so much they didn't fill in because it never happened. It's so unbelievable it's not even funny anymore. Maybe I'm just too logical, and if I go watch Star Wars I might believe they had hyperdrive.

Again: AA was proven to have had a child, FS was not.

But AA was FS! There is no more proof of the Romania baby than there is of what happened to FS's poor baby.

And how do you know that?

You don't want or need me to answer that. It's become silly. You know I completely believe with no doubt that AA was FS. The DNA, the pics, etc.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Not made up for Gilliard's book, statements by other people. Clara's letter was sent to Irene, surely Barbara Mecklenberg and her lawyer BG had a copy.

Then find it!

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

There are so many versions, sometimes there is a horse, sometimes there's not.

And where are these many versions?

Even with a horse, in an old cart, on muddy, unimproved roads, in some places no roads at all, (remember they had to avoid towns in fear of being seen!) large mountains and rivers to cross, and early, harsh Russian winter to deal with, nope, it would have taken them much longer if ever.

And what makes you an expert on this? Please explain.

And don't forget carrying a passenger bleeding to death with no medical care! The infection would have killed her if the wounds didn't.

The bodily wounds were apparently not so bad, remember, the corset with the jewels stopped the bullets. The wounds healed rather quickly, what really made her ill, was the constant pain in her head.

Where did they eat?

Where all the other refugees ate. These were not the only people fleeing Russia, you know.

There's so much they didn't fill in because it never happened. It's so unbelievable it's not even funny anymore. Maybe I'm just too logical, and if I go watch Star Wars I might believe they had hyperdrive.

Who accused you of being logical?

But AA was FS! There is no more proof of the Romania baby than there is of what happened to FS's poor baby.

Yes, there is the medical report. And FS's "poor baby" is nothing but a figment of your imagination.

You don't want or need me to answer that. It's become silly. You know I completely believe with no doubt that AA was FS. The DNA, the pics, etc.

And your belief is your business.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

And where are these many versions?

Ummm...haven't you been reading this thread? Also all over the internet, just about every time I google I see a new false version of the story.

Besides an abundance of "educational" and homemade sites, there's this:

Mysteries Article: Anna Anderson, a.k.a. Anna Tchaikovski... a.k.a. Anastasia?

I think even Kurth would disagree that she 'carried papers in the name of Anna Tchiakovsky'!

The bodily wounds were apparently not so bad, remember, the corset with the jewels stopped the bullets. The wounds healed rather quickly, what really made her ill, was the constant pain in her head.

This story is fake.

Where all the other refugees ate. These were not the only people fleeing Russia, you know.

Most people who flee are in fear for their lives, and being a Romanov was worst of all huh? Bux, Gilliard and Gibbes took 13 months to get out of Russia and they traveled in motorized vehicles. Those who still adhere to the cart story ignore the conditions one would encounter along the alleged path.

Yes, there is the medical report. And FS's "poor baby" is nothing but a figment of your imagination.

It's hard to read this and not laugh! The medical report was for AA and AA was FS which proves FS did have a baby! You want to talk about imaginary babies, look at the silly Romanian orphanage story! That baby is total fiction, so you really have no right to boast to others!