Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[ferrymansdaughter]

Originally Posted by OlgaNikolaievna

? I agree with Elspeth what anomalies? .

See my recent post.

[ferrymansdaughter]

Originally Posted by Warren

Let's get this back in context. The subject is schoolbooks. It's quite a leap to claim that written language in a schoolbook is proof-positive of the ability to speak that language.

This started because certain people were saying originally that GDA knew no German at all. We are not saying her German was perfect or her most used language, etc. but that since she was better at her German lessons than at her Russian ones, therefore she must have had a reasonable knowledge of it.

Those of us who have studied a language know that the writing/reading part comes more easily than the speaking at first and that the best way to learn a language is to live in that country. However, if someone studied a language several times a week over a year or two, they would also be able to speak it to a reasonable degree as each lesson would include an oral part. I am considered at an Intermediate level after studying German for only one hour a week for almost a year. I can hold conversations in the present and past tense but don't yet know the future, conditional, etc. Therefore, having several lessons per week, GDA had enough knowledge of the language that - if she was thrown into an all-German environment - she would have been able to understand and be understood to a reasonable degree.

Incidentally, should this actually belong on the languages thread?

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Menarue

No, I don´t trust you on that Chat. I write and do translations of quite a few languages but get a bit tongue tied speaking some of them. My Spanish becomes Portuguese, my Portuguese becomes Italian but writing it? No problem.

I also translate from Norwegian to English and vice versa, and of course, these are so different that mixing them up, is out of the question. But I cannot for the life of me write Swedish, it's too close to Norwegian, and I get totally mixed up.
Now, back to AA's German: If she learned German in school, she would be able to speak it. Not necessarily well, as the case was. She spoke "a hopelessly muddled German with no regard for grammar." As for Gilliard, he complained about AN's grammar, too. And remember, Franziska was a native German from Hygendorf and, according to her family, spoke good German.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Warren

Let's get this back in context. The subject is schoolbooks. It's quite a leap to claim that written language in a schoolbook is proof-positive of the ability to speak that language.

Again, as somebody who had to learn three foreign languages at school: Writing everything down made you think, and it made you master that language. French we only had orally, and I have never been any good at it.

[Warren]

Your own language skills have no relevance. The subject is your statement that a written language in a school book is evidence or proof that the child can therefore speak the language. It's not proof at all, merely an assertion on your part. That's the only point I am making. Sometimes you [and others] should avoid overstating your case.

[OlgaNikolaievna]

What the entire point (not boat) of this is to make a case as to why Anastasia, who had grown up speaking all Russian and English and knowing French but very tiny bit of German and not using it would, as Fraulein Unknown, suddenly abandon knowing the other three for the one that she hardly knew. That's what does not make any sense. I see that Ms. Anderson's supporters want to make a case that it does but I fail to see it does. Even if Anastasia were Anderson and her story of escape were true, the time she was found was only a year and a half after the murders, most of the time she would have spent in the cart traveling Russia or in Rumania. She had only recently come to Germany so she would not have knowledge of German and forget the rest that fast. If she were upset over the tragedy and forgetting things learned it seems to me the first thing to be forgotten would be the language you knew least not the three you knew best. This is why it looks like the person who was called Fraulein Unknown was a person already very familiar with using German as Franziska would have been having lived and worked in Berlin for 6 years as well as knowing it home along with Kashubian Polish.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Warren

Your own language skills have no relevance.

Yes, they do!

The subject is your statement that a written language in a school book is evidence or proof that the child can therefore speak the language. It's not proof at all, merely an assertion on your part. That's the only point I am making. Sometimes you [and others] should avoid overstating your case.

We are not talking "a book" here, but several of them. "Here, however, in black and white, were the lessons to prove that the Grand Duchess had studied German "in a serious manner," that her German lessons, in fact, bore fewer errors then her Russian lessons did."

[ChatNoir]

What, then, would be the explanation for Franziska all of a sudden speaking a very poor German with a heavy Russian accent?

[COUNTESS]

Perhaps, to fool people. There are those who can speak with accents not their own, very well. Meryl Streep has done it many times. But, others, other than actors can, too.

[OlgaNikolaievna]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

What, then, would be the explanation for Franziska all of a sudden speaking a very poor German with a heavy Russian accent?

I don't believe she did. I think it was rather fluent German in a Polish accent. You can't go by a few comments of hearsay, we've seen many times that they aren't always right. I do not believe Anderson's German was bad. It was the language she wanted to speak despite all the others being spoken to her. If she knew another language better she would have spoken it. I would also like more information to prove just how extensive Anastasia's German work was. This may be overstated to say the least. The reason she made less mistakes is because she was not good at handwriting cyrillic alphabet this does not mean she knew German better than Russian. There is way too much speculation and reading between the lines going on here. We have no proof. I stand by my previous post that Anderson sounded just like what she was, a girl of Kashub family who had lived and worked in Berlin for six years.

[Elspeth]

Originally Posted by ferrymansdaughter

I am referring to DNA generally; we all have heard of anomalous cases, which is why I do not take it as stand alone evidence but, as I have said to AnnawasFranciszka, as part of the whole package. I am not a believer in the DNA was switched theory.

There are always cases where things go wrong, but you have to take each case on its merits. If you can't show that there were problems in this particular case, there's no reason to mistrust the results simply because other cases have had problems.

Elspeth, thank you for replying to my questions directed at AnnawasFranciszka. I have not had the time to read back through all the old ones and since I only have limited time to view this site, I had missed your post regarding the blood sample.

Incidentally, do you know if the blood sample was tested against anything else (ie a control sample) to see if it always gave negatives whatever it was compared with

According to a letter which Dr Ginther sent to someone who had been asking about his work with the blood samples, he sequenced DNA from a sample from Sofia Princess of Hanover, who was another relative of Tsarina Alexandra in the maternal line. He said that none of the various Anna Anderson samples gave sequences that matched the Princess Sofia sequence, and added the aside that this data is believable. Not sure of the context of what he means by believable, but still.

He also reported the sequencing of a sample from Margarette Ellerick by someone else and said that it didn't match the Anna Anderson sample. He then said the Margarette Ellerick sample was an exact match to the Karl Maucher sample. Since the Karl Maucher sample did match the Anna Anderson samples analysed by Gill and Stoneking, I think this is where the discrepancy lies, because at the moment you have A equals B equals C doesn't equal A. He does mention some actual data, though, so I'll pull out my copy of the Gill-Stoneking paper and see if the nucleotides match.

[ChatNoir]

I do not at all think that she knew German better than Russian. But for a Kashub girl who grew up in Germany without any extensive education to speak Russian and English, that does not seem plausible. According to her brother Felix, Franziska knew none of these languages. Affidavit (not hearsay) from Erna Bucholz: I asked her if she could speak Russian. She answered, "yes," whereupon we began to converse in Russian. Shed did not speak it faultily, Rather, she used whole, complete, connected sentences without any impediments......I absolutely got the impression that the patient was completely conversant in the Russian langue, Russian affairs and especially Russian military matters.
Dr. Theodore Eitel in 1926:
She spoke German very badly, with a typically Russian accent. Her vocabulary of German words was extremely limited.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

Perhaps, to fool people. There are those who can speak with accents not their own, very well. Meryl Streep has done it many times. But, others, other than actors can, too.

Everything is possible. But where did she learn Russian? And how come she spoke Russian and English in her sleep and under sedation?

[OlgaNikolaievna]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Everything is possible. But where did she learn Russian? And how come she spoke Russian and English in her sleep and under sedation?

We do not know for sure that these hearsay accounts are true. They may be inaccurate.

[COUNTESS]

You can learn languages, that has been apparent. Why one would speak one or the other under anesthestia is open for question. That she was "completely conversant especially in Russian military matters". Oh come on. She was 17 at the time they were shot. She was no great scholar and who discussed military matters with her? Perhaps, the good doctor was urged to say these things. She was a child when these things happened. Now, if she were coached by someone to learn languages and military matters and Russian affairs, so that she could appear as whomever they liked.......

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by OlgaNikolaievna

We do not know for sure that these hearsay accounts are true. They may be inaccurate.

These are not hearsay accounts. One is a written statement from Dr. Rudnev, the other is noted in the report by Dr. Schiler, who treated AA on her visit at the Kleist's.

[ChatNoir]

You can learn languages, that has been apparent. Why one would speak one or the other under anesthestia is open for question.

But it shows us that she knew these languages.

That she was "completely conversant especially in Russian military matters". Oh come on. She was 17 at the time they were shot. She was no great scholar and who discussed military matters with her?

Her parents, I believe.

Perhaps, the good doctor was urged to say these things. She was a child when these things happened.

Erna Bucholz was not a doctor, but a nurse at Dalldorf.

Now, if she were coached by someone to learn languages and military matters and Russian affairs, so that she could appear as whomever they liked.......

And who was her coach?

From Tatiana Botkin's notes:
Generally, conversation with her is difficult. She is interested only in political questions, in memories of the imperial family and in life at the remaining courts.

[OlgaNikolaievna]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

But it shows us that she knew these languages.

Yet, other people said she didn't speak or understand them at all. Who are we to believe?

Her parents, I believe.

Why of course, Nicholas consulted Anastasia on all his important military decisions, just as Jimmy Carter discussed nuclear weapons with his daughter, Amy. It didn't do either one of them any good for staying in power, did it?

And who was her coach?

From Tatiana Botkin's notes:
Generally, conversation with her is difficult. She is interested only in political questions, in memories of the imperial family and in life at the remaining courts.

Brilliant, you may have just answered your own question.