Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[Anna was Franziska]

I was so determined to prove this I drove directly to the library and tried to get the books, but both are checked out. I will try another library another time.

Welch's book does use other sources already seen over and over in other books, but does have some new info. The interesting thing about her book is that it's written under the known premise that AA was not AN, and therefore looks at it that way and not in a 'maybe she was maybe she wasn't' way. She makes no attempts to debunk the myth as I do, in her view, that was done by the dna and is not necessary. She does have a few tidbits that no pro AA writer would ever use.

Lexi have you answered the poll posted by the mod? Your posts generally support Chat and AA's case, what is your stand, do you believe the 1994 DNA test, and do you believe the 2007 bones are those of the last two children?

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Grand Duke Andrew seemed to believe so. And so did Xenia Leeds, and they were both her family.

As did Mathilda Kschessinska. See her book: Dancing in St. Petersburg.

[Anna was Franziska]

She never met the real AN. Being her father's ex mistress I can imagine it would have been awkward to have her hanging around! She met her once she was elderly, and again gave the very weak "must be because she has Nicky's eyes" answer, nothing unique to AN herself because she'd never met her. I'm sure the kindly old soul wanted one of Nicky's kids to live, but they didn't.

Her husband, Grand Duke Andre, being married to the Tsar's ex mistress and being the brother and son of Nicky and Alix's worst enemies in the family the Vladimirovich, was hardly a frequent family guest, either. He's touted as an 'aide de camp' of the tsar, but the tsar had several, and according to lists I've seen posted on AP, he was not one of the more popular or close ones.

In addition to that, his inollvement in the AA charade was very suspect, having written to Sergei Botkin, uncle of Gleb and head of the Russian emigre' community in Berlin:

The number of people who have been drawn into this work is very large, and among them such strict discipline is apparent as was never present in Russian circles.”(Kurth p.152) What did he mean by ‘discipline? Was this a ‘code of silence’ that those involved in the charade would never speak of it? What did it mean that he distinguished the group from ‘purely Russian circles’, that there were others involved who were not Russians? His words do prove at least by 1927, her network of 'helpers' was 'very large.' If even one of them were to give it away, the entire house cards would fall and everyone involved would go down, so it's not surprising they never gave themselves away.

Olga A. wrote to a friend in 1928:

ebruary, 15th 1928, Hvidore

Dear Miss B***,

Indeed, you understand like us the absurdity of this story! More and more, I see that this story is all about blackmail and money....I say openly that my cousin André must have some vile motives to side against us…

Regardless of it all, Andre/Andrew refused to have anything to do with the case after Gleb's scathing letter to the Tsar's sister. I don't have the direct quote, but after finding out about this Andre was furious at Gleb, declaring that he had 'ruined everything.' WHAT did he ruin?

Your Imperial Highness!

Twenty four hours did not pass after the death of your mother when you hastened to take another step in the conspiracy against your niece...Before the wrong which Your Imperial Highness is committing, even the gruesome murder of the Emperor, his family and my father by the Bolsheviks pales! It is easier to understand a crime committed by a gang of crazed and drunken savages than the calm, systematic, endless persecution of one of your own family, the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna, whose only fault is that, being the only rightful heir to the late Emperor, she stands in the way of her greedy and unscrupuous relatives.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

She never met the real AN. Being her father's ex mistress I can imagine it would have been awkward to have her hanging around!

That would have been beyond the pale if Nicky had Mathilda personally meet his family. Nicky and Alix had a very passionate relationship, she probably would go ballistic if that ever happened.

[Anna was Franziska]

Oh Alix would never have put up with that! Egads! I guess that's why she didn't!

[ChatNoir]

Maybe we should look at WHY Gleb wrote this letter. From "The Woman who rose again":
A friend of mine who was very close to some of the highest officials in Washington informed me privately that, left unanswered, the statement of Grand Duchess Xenia and her children (The Copenhagen Statement) had to be accepted by the United States Government as true; and the Unites States could not harbour impostors and would, therefore, on the basis of Xenia's statement deport Anastasia back to Germany. Moreover, there being no possibility of Anastasia's bringing a libel suit against her aunts in Europe, the only thing that could be done was for me to issue a counter-statement strong enough to make it a grave libel if untrue. Should Grand Duchess Xenia bring a libel suit against me, Washington would allow Anastasia to remain in this country for all the duration of the litigaton. And should Xenia fail to bring suit against me, Washington would accept it as a confession on her part that she knew my statement to be true and hence knew her own accusations against Grand Duchess Anastasia to be false.

When somewhat later Xenia's husband, Grand Duke Alexander, arrived in this country a delegation of Russians went to ask him what he or his wife planned to do to refute my accusations. Alexander answered that he had already written a very stern letter to my uncle, Peter.

[ChatNoir]

As for Grand Duke Andrew, here are some of his own words about the case:
(My apologies if I have posted this already.)
Villa Alam, Cap d'Ail, A/M. 8th July, 1928

Mr. P. S. von Kügelgen
Berlin-Zehlendorf,
Kleistrasse 20.

My dear Paul Pavlovich,

In order to obviate the possibility of any misunderstanding whatever, I should like to indicate in general lines the object of my work.
When I began my investigations, it became obvious to me that everything that had hitherto been done had been carried out unsystematically, that no accurate reports existed, and that no one had been inspired by a fixed purpose.

It is perfectly obvious that the question of the "Unknown," as she was called, must be dealt with in such a manner that the first point to be established is whether it was as all probable that one of the Princesses was rescued from Ekaterinburg. Inquiries made with this object in view have yielded no documentary evidence; but it transpired that the rescue of one of the Prencesses was not merely probable, but might almost be regarded as an established fact. The absence of precise information admittedly renders it impossible to treat this hypothesis as proved, and for this reason many people disagree on the point. Nevertheless, facts are known to me which have convinced me, although at the moment I do not feel myself justified in divulging them, since this aspect of the case must be handled very carefully.
The question next arises, whether the "Unknown" sho appeared in Berlin is identical with the Princess. As documentary evidence is lacking, we are forced to content ourselves with the interrogation of the patient herself. chiefly in regard to verifying her recollections. As far as this is concerned, I must state that her reminiscences, so far as I have been able ro examine them, yield a description, clear in every respect, of actual facts. Everything which she recalls is an absolutely accurate description of the life of the Royal Family, including details which have never appeared in the Press. My own opinion is that the things which the patient remembers are such as only the Princess herself could recall.
We next come to a question which has given rise to considerable doubt, whether the "Unknown" resembles the Princess in appearance. I have seen her personally, and was greatly impressed by the striking similarity; I was even more struck by the general family resemblance, which is in some respects of almost greater importance than a personal likeness. My impression was, of course, a personal one, but it was so strong and so convincing that I could come to no other conclusion than that the patient could only be the Princess Anastasia Nikolaevna herself.
All the doubts so far expressed by the Press are completely removed by the scientific and practical results of my investigations. ALthough I was prepared to admit that there might be objections, I have been compelled to regard them as entirely unfounded and unproven. My opinions are confirmed by the similar manner in which these objections have been treated by Duke George von Leuchtenberg.
As regards two other questions, it is absolutely necessary that they should be fully confuted: the first is whether any political influence enters into the case. The reappearance of the Princess can have no political significance, since, in view of the fact that male members of our dynasty survive, her chance of succession is a very remote one. The second question is that of material interests being involved. Long before the "Unknown" appeared, I carefully investigated all the rumours concerning the existence of the millions alleged to have been left by the late Tsar; in every case these rumours proved to be unfounded, as I expected. Unfortunately it has to be borne in mind that this statement is being used as a means of throwing suspicion on all who took any part in my inquiries, by accusing them of being influenced by self-interest and speculative motives.

The object which I undertook when commencing my work is and continues to be the same - to establish the truth, be it what it may. All who have helped me for nearly two years are inspired by the same aims, so that I am grieved and angered by the accusations levelled against them, even more so than by those of which I myself am the victim, The investigation has never deviated from the prescribed methods, and has embraced with equal readiness all material whether favourable or otherwise.

No matter how much time is required, the investigation will be pursued until the truth is established and proved, for it is just as inconceivable that a stranger should claim to be the Princess, as that the Princess herself should be in such a distressing position. I must not omit to express my gratitude to the German Press for its help in much of my work, and would like to express the hope that in the future it will devote to the matter the same attention and accord the same unbiased treatment, and thus help me to ascertain the truth.

In conclusion, I wish to emphasize the fact that I regard it as my duty to carry my investigations to a conclusion, and that I shall spare myself no labour in my efforts to endure that truth triumphs in the end.
Everyone may rest assured that I shall be the first to admit it, if in the future evidence is produced that I have been mistaken, and that the patient is not the Princess. If, however, proof is forthcoming that I was right, and that she actually is the Princess, it will afford me an extraordinary moral satisfacton that I and all who have so devotedly helped me have fulfilled this duty to the end. This will be the greatest reward for all of us.

Sincerely yours,
Andrew.

[ChatNoir]

As for Andrew withdrawing from the case, please see Peter Kurth page 277:

It was no secret that Kyril had recently ordered his brother, Grand Duke Andrew, to cease all activity in Anastasia's interest.

[ferrymansdaughter]

Chat has easily refuted many of your points but I am sure you will be pleased to know that I have a few comments!

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Also, as Klier and Mingay pointed out, it's very possible that the German staff, not knowing any or much of either language, mistook Polish for Russian..

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Who said that, and might they have mistaken Polish for Russian..

Amongst others - Dr Rudnev - who spent many years in Russian as a doctor. I think he could tell the difference. As could several nurses who spoke either Russian or Polish, as mentioned by Chat, by name.

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

It's a German and Polish accent.

That's not what the language experts said and I think I'll take their opinion over yours.

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Besides, AN didn't learn English from Gibbes, she learned it from her parents and her British nanny. She didn't start taking lessons with Gibbes until she was about 7, after already speaking English since babyhood. .

Actually Gibbes was recruited after Alexandra was told that her children spoke horrible English so they obviously didn't do a very good job in teaching their children that language, did they? Also, one's accent can indeed change after the age of seven. Mine did and I know plenty of other people whose accents changed after that age.

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

This was not because they didn't know English it was because they were speaking with Scottish dialect due to their nanny (from what I've read)

So according to you, their accent did change - at least from Scottish to something else! Incidentally, where did you read that?

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

The FACT is that AN DID NOT SPEAK OR USE GERMAN in her real life. Taking lessons does not = useable knowledge. Those who knew them said 'they knew no German' or 'German was never used in the family.' This does NOT men they didn't take lessons, this means they don't speak it functionally.

The girls had German lessons SEVERAL TIMES A WEEK according to their school books and timetables. Anastasia's schoolbooks also show that her written German work was actually BETTER than her Russian. Once in a German environment she would certainly have been able to converse. 'German was never used in the family.' is utterly pedantic - just because she didn't speak it on a day to day basis with Aunt Olga etc, does not mean she couldn't speak it if required. I am learning German - I don't speak it with my family but that doesn't mean I can't do so if necessary.

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Massie's book and several other reliable sources state clearly FS was injured in the grenade factory, and suffered severe head injuries. .

WHICH other "reliable sources"? Please quote them so you can show us if we are wrong.

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

So you cannot provide the alleged records that supposedly say she wasn't hurt, I didn't think so, they don't exist..

You apparently can't produce sources showing she WAS hurt.

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

it was in the notes of Berenberg-Gossler and other anti-AA attorneys, but sadly most of those who write books about AA are more interested in supporting her claim rather than giving the other side, therefore such things go unpublicized. Massie used them as have other books. As Berenberg Gossler said, during the trials, the press was only interested in her side so the editors withdrew their reporters before the anti- aa side was told. This led directly to the lopsided documented 'evidence' we have today, meaning AA supporters can always put a page number to things and those against her claim cannot. BG was going to write it all in his memoirs but sadly passed away before he was finished. I hope someday someone will put them out for us to see..

Can you please give us sources? (ie Massie quotes medical report or eyewitnesses)
Also which papers withdrew their reporters? I have never seen anyone but you say this. If it is in Berenberg-Gossler's unpublished memoirs, how do you know - have you seen them?

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Oh, the same nurse who lied about the date and then blamed it on the newspaper? I never heard of the other one. You drop a lot of names and assume everything they say is true but we'll never know enough about the person to know what really happened..

I've certainly heard of all these people. You should have too.

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Quote - Fallows notes are at the Houghton Library

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Oh that's real accessible for us!.

Harvard is much closer for you than most of us

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

I believe, but don't have the records of course, this originally discovered by the investigation of the detective who identified AA as FS. They're also in the papers of Dr. Berenberg- Gosslerr..

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

II don't have the books handy because they were only from the library. I believe it was Massie's Final Chapter and Frances Welch's Romanov Fantasy.(the daughter stuff too).

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska;793856[I

In 1935, Fallows sunk so low as to appeal to Adolf Hitler for help in getting Anderson's claim recognized! He snuggled up to Hitler with terms such as "Honorable" and "Esteemed Sir" and used hateful anti-semitic remarks about the Bolsheviks who had killed "Anastasia's" family. It was all for nothing, as Fallows never heard back from Der Fuhrer.[/i]

If you don't have the books, then where did you get this quote come from ?

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

In addition to that, his inollvement in the AA charade was very suspect, having written to Sergei Botkin, uncle of Gleb and head of the Russian emigre' community in Berlin

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

The number of people who have been drawn into this work is very large, and among them such strict discipline is apparent as was never present in Russian circles.”(Kurth p.152) What did he mean by ‘discipline? Was this a ‘code of silence’ that those involved in the charade would never speak of it? What did it mean that he distinguished the group from ‘purely Russian circles’, that there were others involved who were not Russians? His words do prove at least by 1927, her network of 'helpers' was 'very large.' If even one of them were to give it away, the entire house cards would fall and everyone involved would go down, so it's not surprising they never gave themselves away.

If you had actually read Andrei's letters properly, you would know he was referring not to AA's supporters but to those who opposed her and his comments about non Russians obviously refers to the Duke of Hesse.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ferrymansdaughter

Chat has easily refuted many of your points but I am sure you will be pleased to know that I have a few comments!

If you accept his version, and the things the AA supporters claimed years ago which is where he got his info, Kurth's book based mostly on those things and has nothing from the 'other side.' He was clearly making a case for AA to be AN (though not nearly as blatant as Lovell!)

Amongst others - Dr Rudnev - who spent many years in Russian as a doctor. I think he could tell the difference. As could several nurses who spoke either Russian or Polish, as mentioned by Chat, by name.

As I said above, if you believe the version relayed by AA supporters. I don't accept every single quote by every person as a 'fact.'

That's not what the language experts said and I think I'll take their opinion over yours.

ONE you can't even name, and as we've seen from the ears and face 'experts' they are not always reliable or accurate. We know now they weren't since AA was not AN.

Actually Gibbes was recruited after Alexandra was told that her children spoke horrible English so they obviously didn't do a very good job in teaching their children that language, did they? Also, one's accent can indeed change after the age of seven. Mine did and I know plenty of other people whose accents changed after that age.

So according to you, their accent did change - at least from Scottish to something else! Incidentally, where did you read that?

Their English wasn't 'atrocious' as in they couldn't speak it, it was the dialect and properness of it. I'm sure most Brits think most Americans speak 'atrocious' English but this is not the same thing as a lack of knowledge of the language. If you want to hear really 'atrocious' English check out the tapes and videos of AA/FS and her massacre of it ("dirt I was living!")

The girls had German lessons SEVERAL TIMES A WEEK according to their school books and timetables. Anastasia's schoolbooks also show that her written German work was actually BETTER than her Russian. Once in a German environment she would certainly have been able to converse. 'German was never used in the family.' is utterly pedantic - just because she didn't speak it on a day to day basis with Aunt Olga etc, does not mean she couldn't speak it if required. I am learning German - I don't speak it with my family but that doesn't mean I can't do so if necessary.

AA supporters really push this a bit too hard. I realize they are desperate to do so since those who knew AN well said she did NOT use German and you're trying to come up with excuses why she could have, but if you're going to go by quotes from eyewitnesses you have to accept theirs, too, even though they disagree with your perceived view.

WHICH other "reliable sources"? Please quote them so you can show us if we are wrong.

Something you need to realize here- just because something is written down in Kurth's book and you can quote it doesn't make it a 'fact', it's just a piece of evidence for consideration like everything else.AA supporters smugly ask for 'sources' because they know there isn't much written down on the anti AA side (partly because, as Berenberg Gossler said, it was never recorded because the papers only wanted AA's side because it sold better, and partly because most rational people don't bother because they know the DNA speaks for itself) and they can always whip out Kurth's book and quote a page and this is supposed to be a 'fact' that trumps everything else, but it's already been defeated by the DNA.

You apparently can't produce sources showing she WAS hurt.

Massie's book, Godl's site, and other books I no longer have handy. I have been reading on this subject for 32 years now, I see a lot, don't always have a page number handy. This plays right into the hands of AA supporters, because they can always whip out Kurth's book and think they can trump us with a 'real' 'source' but it's really just a collection of hearsay and parts of the story. I could also write a book and quote a page, but that wouldn't make you believe it.

Can you please give us sources? (ie Massie quotes medical report or eyewitnesses)

Also which papers withdrew their reporters? I have never seen anyone but you say this. If it is in Berenberg-Gossler's unpublished memoirs, how do you know - have you seen them?

Again, in his acknowledgements for "Final Chapter" he quotes that he used the unpublished works of Berenberg-Gossler among others. Since BG was an attorney in the AA case, apparently he had access and and records of things we don't see (and no AA supporter is ever going to put them in their book!)

Harvard is much closer for you than most of us

It's a good thousand miles. Not everyone has the luxury of their days free and an unlimited supply of time and money for travel.I certainly don't. Sure Kurth is rich and can fly about the world at will but not me.

If you don't have the books, then where did you get this quote come from ?

I had a copy of Final Chapter but like a few other books it disappeared in my last move (2005) I had a copies of it and Welch's books from my local library and went to get them but they are now checked out by somebody else (which is good so that person can find out AA is not AN!) I have also owned and checked out a lot of books over the years. Some are in libraries no longer near me. Others have been taken off the shelf as too old and put in book sales. I had the books with me at the time I wrote my site, and also I got help from other people who owned the books who emailed me the info.(and why am I even explaining myself and what good will it do?)

If you had actually read Andrei's letters properly, you would know he was referring not to AA's supporters but to those who opposed her and his comments about non Russians obviously refers to the Duke of Hesse.

Obviously? That's not the way it was quoted in Klier's book.

In the end you can never trump the truth. History and science have spoken. The DNA tests proved AA was not AN and matched FS's family. Now the bones found last summer are proven to be the last two missing kids, whichever daughter it is, they are now all accounted for. So this means that all the quotes, hearsay,'testimony' etc. of all those pro AA witnesses were either wrong, lying or mistaken. AA was not AN, and never was in Russia and never knew anything AN would have known. That's the bottom line and the final chapter.

[ChatNoir]

If you accept his version, and the things the AA supporters claimed years ago which is where he got his info, Kurth's book based mostly on those things and has nothing from the 'other side.' He was clearly making a case for AA to be AN (though not nearly as blatant as Lovell!)

As far as I can see, Kurth's book is the most researched one on the market regarding this case. To say that he has "nothing from the other side" is pure fiction. He has the whole FS story (including all the things that don't measure up), the letters from Olga, Gilliard's statements (some of which were proven false), the oral and written statements from family members and people connected to the court. It is all there if you care to read it.

As I said above, if you believe the version relayed by AA supporters. I don't accept every single quote by every person as a 'fact.'

ONE you can't even name, and as we've seen from the ears and face 'experts' they are not always reliable or accurate. We know now they weren't since AA was not AN.

I don't think we have an official ruling on that yet.

Their English wasn't 'atrocious' as in they couldn't speak it, it was the dialect and properness of it. I'm sure most Brits think most Americans speak 'atrocious' English but this is not the same thing as a lack of knowledge of the language. If you want to hear really 'atrocious' English check out the tapes and videos of AA/FS and her massacre of it ("dirt I was living!")

You never heard AA's English in the 20's, only after she had been staying in Germany for over 30 years. According to Xenia Leeds, "her English was good, but her grammar a bit rusty."

AA supporters really push this a bit too hard. I realize they are desperate to do so since those who knew AN well said she did NOT use German and you're trying to come up with excuses why she could have, but if you're going to go by quotes from eyewitnesses you have to accept theirs, too, even though they disagree with your perceived view.

As I have already told you, I took German at school, but never used it at home. Still, I could speak almost fluent upon my first arrival in Germany. And my friends from Norway, who never use English at home, speak it freely here when they visit.

Something you need to realize here- just because something is written down in Kurth's book and you can quote it doesn't make it a 'fact', it's just a piece of evidence for consideration like everything else.AA supporters smugly ask for 'sources' because they know there isn't much written down on the anti AA side (partly because, as Berenberg Gossler said, it was never recorded because the papers only wanted AA's side because it sold better, and partly because most rational people don't bother because they know the DNA speaks for itself) and they can always whip out Kurth's book and quote a page and this is supposed to be a 'fact' that trumps everything else, but it's already been defeated by the DNA

If you want something written down from the opposition, just check out Gilliard's book "La Fausse Anastasie". The only problem is, there are too many glaring lies in it.

Massie's book, Godl's site, and other books I no longer have handy. I have been reading on this subject for 32 years now, I see a lot, don't always have a page number handy. This plays right into the hands of AA supporters, because they can always whip out Kurth's book and think they can trump us with a 'real' 'source' but it's really just a collection of hearsay and parts of the story. I could also write a book and quote a page, but that wouldn't make you believe it.

I still don't think you have understood what "hearsay" means. Look in Prince Christopher's book, it's full of it. And Kurth's book can be had today for a buck.

Again, in his acknowledgements for "Final Chapter" he quotes that he used the unpublished works of Berenberg-Gossler among others. Since BG was an attorney in the AA case, apparently he had access and and records of things we don't see (and no AA supporter is ever going to put them in their book!)

If the records and "things" exist, I think we would have seen them a long time ago.

I had a copy of Final Chapter but like a few other books it disappeared in my last move (2005) I had a copies of it and Welch's books from my local library and went to get them but they are now checked out by somebody else (which is good so that person can find out AA is not AN!) I have also owned and checked out a lot of books over the years. Some are in libraries no longer near me. Others have been taken off the shelf as too old and put in book sales. I had the books with me at the time I wrote my site, and also I got help from other people who owned the books who emailed me the info.(and why am I even explaining myself and what good will it do?)

It would do a lot of good if you could verify your sources.

In the end you can never trump the truth. History and science have spoken. The DNA tests proved AA was not AN and matched FS's family. Now the bones found last summer are proven to be the last two missing kids, whichever daughter it is, they are now all accounted for. So this means that all the quotes, hearsay,'testimony' etc. of all those pro AA witnesses were either wrong, lying or mistaken. AA was not AN, and never was in Russia and never knew anything AN would have known. That's the bottom line and the final chapter.

Sorry, but the final chapter is still waiting to be written. Stay tuned.