Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ferrymansdaughter

For Heaven's sake - no matter how small someone's knowlege of a language is, they can either speak SOME or NONE. Anastasia had actually studied it several times a week for some time before they were taken to Ekaterinburg, therefore she DID know some German. This is an indisputable FACT.

The FACT is that AN DID NOT SPEAK OR USE GERMAN in her real life. Taking lessons does not = useable knowledge. Those who knew them said 'they knew no German' or 'German was never used in the family.' This does NOT men they didn't take lessons, this means they don't speak it functionally. I know AA supporters like to use the lessons that 'technically' she 'may' have known German because that's the language AA used, but really, a real AN would have known the other three much better and would not have completely abandoned them all for one she barely knew and NEVER USED. (remember even the German relations spoke and wrote to the family in English, there were no Germans in Russia during WWII and they had no use for it)

If you were as knowledgeable as you claim to be, you would know that AA wasactually unable to express herself fluently in almost ANY language. Whoever she was, she definitely had head injuries and it is a well known fact that head injuries can affect the language centres of the brain.

Yes, due to the grenade explosion suffered when she was FS working in the factory.

When she lived in Germany, she spoke that language and her English was bad. When she got off the Berengaria in New York, she could speak fluent English - and please don't tell me that she had a crash course on the voyage.

I don't believe this. I think her supporters, who were the witnesses who claim that, bragged up her use of English. Clearly she never mastered it even after moving to the US and marrying an American- she had to have her husband translate for her! I have heard videos of her, 'dirt I was living'- this is what the writer in the quote I posted meant- the language structure is all wrong for someone who knew English first, before German. AA clearly knew German and knew it well before she ever touched English. This fits for FS but not AN.

Why would she speak any Romanian? Tthe Tchaikowsky family were not Rumanian, they were supposed to be Polish I believe. Also AA only went out twice during her whole time in Bucharest - one for the "wedding" and once for the funeral.

Considering she was never really in Romania because her entire 'escape' story is fiction, this is really insignificant.

The evidence of her speaking Russian does not just come from supporters, but also from independent people such as doctors etc before her claim to identify began. Everyone at Dalldorf thought she was Russian BEFORE she was "discovered".

Funny those stories didn't come out until after she was well known, we'll never know how much was really accurate. Also, as Klier and Mingay pointed out, it's very possible that the German staff, not knowing any or much of either language, mistook Polish for Russian.

Don't you think it's strange she wouldn't speak Russian with native Russian speakers, and people AN had known in her real life, like Olga A, Felix Y and Sophie B?

As I have pointed out elsewhere - and unfortunately don't have the sources to hand - language experts said that AA spoke English with EITHER a Russian or a German accent from a specific German province (not the Posen area where FS came from).

It's a German and Polish accent.

They also detected a slight Yorkshire accent whichis intriguing since Gibbes came from Yorkshire. I doubt very much if FS ever met anyone from Yorkshire.

I've heard this one before, and it's not 'intriguing' at all. I question who came up with that, probably someone who knew he was from Yorkshire and tried to help her. Besides, AN didn't learn English from Gibbes, she learned it from her parents and her British nanny. She didn't start taking lessons with Gibbes until she was about 7, after already speaking English since babyhood. In addtion to all this, you can listen to the tapes of AA speaking and hear NO signs of any English accent.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by AGRBear

If I'm remembering correctly, one of the judges, who spoke Russian, visited AA, because she refused to go to court, and interviewed her. When he left her he believed she did speak Russian.

Perhaps Chat can recall this better than I and has a source.

AGRBear

Yes she refused to come into court to prove it. She was interviewed and answered questions read to her in Russian in English, however, she never spoke Russian, or proved she could read or write it. This was in 1965, after she had many years to be coached by someone. (and that person had to have known English and Russian to have taught her to answer in English to Russian questions, who knows, she may even have been tipped off about the questions ahead of time) The fact is, AA never spoke, wrote or read Russian in court or in public to prove she was able, therefore, it's 'eminently likely' she wasn't. In Massie's book, he explained the frustration of the 1965 judge who even sang Russian songs trying to get her to respond; she never did.

Another thing I want to address is the double standard of AA and Russian. Sometimes supporters (even her husband as late as 1977 according to one witness) explained away her inability to speak Russian as because she was 'traumatized' or 'it was the last language heard in that house' before the murders. HOWEVER, this excuse is too often contradicted by supporters' claims that this or that person said she spoke Russian and sometimes even 'like a native'. So, which was it, did she use it or did she not speak it due to being traumatized?' If a person is 'traumatized' to the point of unlearning or refusing their own native language why would they sometimes speak it (but only around the 'right' people) and sometimes not? You can't be 'traumatized' sometimes and then other times be fine with it, then switch back and forth. This contradiction is very glaring.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

No, a person can know very little German and have it still not qualify as knowledge enough to make it useful.

When AA first surfaced in Berlin, she spoke very bad German with "a typical Russian accent." Franziska, however, spoke good German.

I know people who took it in high school and college and don't know enough to function minimally.

And I took it in high school and college and spoke it fluently.

The facts, yes, the facts are, that AN was raised bilingual in Russian and English, therefore those should have been two languages AA, if she were AN, knew well, yet, she didn't.

Yes, she did. See Erna Bucholz testimony in Hamburg. Also see protocols from Dalldorf. She would "rave in English under sedation", and Inspector Grünberg's nephew, Conrad Wahl, remembered the "sick lady as someone who spoke more English than German".

She learned French and had a live in French tutor, so she came to know it well. The official language of the court was French, so it was used often.

Gilliard was complaining that the Grand Duchesses did not speak French well, the only one who mastered it, was Alexei.

The one language that as not used often was German. This is proven by accounts and books of those who knew them. So there's really no point in arguing that because they technically took lessons they 'might' have known it well because the proof is there that they didn't. Some may say, but they had German relatives. Yes, but it's proven that all correspondence with them in person and via letter was in English, this included Ella, Ernie and even the Kaiser! So, not being exposed to German, they didn't know it like the other languages. This means it would not have been the language of choice, or best language, of any of the children should they turn up missing later.

And if you were running away from your enemies and ended up in Germany, what would you do? Probably speak German to try to blend in.

Those who met her in the 20's and denied her such as Yussoupov and Olga mentioned he choice of German and her inability to speak Russian, English or French as a big reason for their denial.

And later we found out that she used both Russian and English while at Mommsen.

Why would a person raised speaking three other languages suddenly, in a year and a half time, forget them and suddenly use the one she was least familiar with?

I think you forget here that the poor woman had forgotten more than languages, she could not even count past 10.

And what about Romanian, she allegedly lived there, yet didn't know it? Guess they forgot to cover that base in her invented escape story! When it comes donw to it, the only evidence of her speaking the other languages came from supporters. She was never able to prove it in public.

So she was supposed to learn Romanian in 12 months by living with her Russian/Polish rescuers and only getting out of the house a couple of times? And your friends could not even learn German from years of lessons at school.

The most glaring proof should be AA's horrible English, even years later, even after living in the US for years! Here are some other accounts:

It was not the English of someone who had spoken English since childhood as Anastasia did." said the English writer, Michael Thornton, when he met her in 1960. "The accent was Germanic, the sentence structure German, the grammar hopeless."

Dave Howey, who met Anderson, by then Mrs. Manahan, when he was a cadet at a Virginia military academy in 1977, wrote of their meeting that "Her husband talked for her since she spoke very little English. Her only functional language was German, her Russian having been wiped out, we were told, as a result of the trauma from seeing her family gunned down in the cellar of a house in Ekaterinburg, Russia."

According to Xenia, her English was good, but the grammar somewhat rusty. She went back to Germany in the late twenties and spent over 30 years there.

[ChatNoir]

[quote=Anna was Franziska;793751]

The FACT is that AN DID NOT SPEAK OR USE GERMAN in her real life. Taking lessons does not = useable knowledge. Those who knew them said 'they knew no German' or 'German was never used in the family.' This does NOT men they didn't take lessons, this means they don't speak it functionally. I know AA supporters like to use the lessons that 'technically' she 'may' have known German because that's the language AA used, but really, a real AN would have known the other three much better and would not have completely abandoned them all for one she barely knew and NEVER USED. (remember even the German relations spoke and wrote to the family in English, there were no Germans in Russia during WWII and they had no use for it)

I took German lessons for 4 years at school. We did, of course, never use it at home. After 2 weeks in Germany, I spoke rather fluent German. So taking lessons DOES mean that one can obtain usable knowledge. I also took English lessons, and as you may have discovered, I also have a little knowledge of that language as well.

Yes, due to the grenade explosion suffered when she was FS working in the factory.

According to medical reports from the AEG factory and statements from her own family, FS received no wounds from the explosion at the factory.

I don't believe this. I think her supporters, who were the witnesses who claim that, bragged up her use of English. Clearly she never mastered it even after moving to the US and marrying an American- she had to have her husband translate for her! I have heard videos of her, 'dirt I was living'- this is what the writer in the quote I posted meant- the language structure is all wrong for someone who knew English first, before German. AA clearly knew German and knew it well before she ever touched English. This fits for FS but not AN.

AA spoke German very poorly. Othewise, see privious post.

Considering she was never really in Romania because her entire 'escape' story is fiction, this is really insignificant.

According to the witness Sarsha Gregorian, she crossed the Dniestr into Moldova on December 5, 1918.

Funny those stories didn't come out until after she was well known, we'll never know how much was really accurate. Also, as Klier and Mingay pointed out, it's very possible that the German staff, not knowing any or much of either language, mistook Polish for Russian.

Those stories were kept confidential by the nurses on request from the unknown patient. The only one who was informed, was Dr. Chemnitz. See his testimony from Hamburg.

Don't you think it's strange she wouldn't speak Russian with native Russian speakers, and people AN had known in her real life, like Olga A, Felix Y and Sophie B?

And Gleb Botkin. When she slipped into Russian, she would afterwards deny it and insist that she had spoken nothing but German.

I've heard this one before, and it's not 'intriguing' at all. I question who came up with that, probably someone who knew he was from Yorkshire and tried to help her. Besides, AN didn't learn English from Gibbes, she learned it from her parents and her British nanny. She didn't start taking lessons with Gibbes until she was about 7, after already speaking English since babyhood. In addtion to all this, you can listen to the tapes of AA speaking and hear NO signs of any English accent.

Gibbes was hired because the Grand Duchesses' English was "atrocious"

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Yes she refused to come into court to prove it.

She refused to have anything to do with the courts at all. In the beginning, she was not even agreeable to a lawsuit. Only when she heard that Grand Duchess Xenia was suing for tsarist property in Europe did she agree to go ahead.

She was interviewed and answered questions read to her in Russian in English, however, she never spoke Russian, or proved she could read or write it. This was in 1965, after she had many years to be coached by someone. (and that person had to have known English and Russian to have taught her to answer in English to Russian questions, who knows, she may even have been tipped off about the questions ahead of time) The fact is, AA never spoke, wrote or read Russian in court or in public to prove she was able, therefore, it's 'eminently likely' she wasn't. In Massie's book, he explained the frustration of the 1965 judge who even sang Russian songs trying to get her to respond; she never did.

See Fallows notes about how AA spoke fluent Russian with Dr. Rudnev and Albert Coyle.

Another thing I want to address is the double standard of AA and Russian. Sometimes supporters (even her husband as late as 1977 according to one witness) explained away her inability to speak Russian as because she was 'traumatized' or 'it was the last language heard in that house' before the murders. HOWEVER, this excuse is too often contradicted by supporters' claims that this or that person said she spoke Russian and sometimes even 'like a native'. So, which was it, did she use it or did she not speak it due to being traumatized?' If a person is 'traumatized' to the point of unlearning or refusing their own native language why would they sometimes speak it (but only around the 'right' people) and sometimes not? You can't be 'traumatized' sometimes and then other times be fine with it, then switch back and forth. This contradiction is very glaring.

She apparently knew Russian perfectly well and demonstrated it on countless occasions. But when made aware of it, she clammed up and insisted that she could not understand, nor speak it. Only in 1938 when she had a really good mental period and felt happy, she opened up and spoke it freely. (See above)

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

When AA first surfaced in Berlin, she spoke very bad German with "a typical Russian accent." Franziska, however, spoke good German.

Who said that, and might they have mistaken Polish for Russian.

And I took it in high school and college and spoke it fluently.

Good for you. This doesn't apply to anyone else.

Yes, she did. See Erna Bucholz testimony in Hamburg. Also see protocols from Dalldorf. She would "rave in English under sedation", and Inspector Grünberg's nephew, Conrad Wahl, remembered the "sick lady as someone who spoke more English than German".

As I said, all these reports come from supporters. Grunberg was one of her most ardent early supporters. The nurses we may always wonder if they knew the difference between languages, or if they were trying to help her.

Gilliard was complaining that the Grand Duchesses did not speak French well, the only one who mastered it, was Alexei.

But, you say he's a liar.

And if you were running away from your enemies and ended up in Germany, what would you do? Probably speak German to try to blend in.

But why not speak it to native Russian speakers you'd known in your real ife such as Olga A., Felix Y, and Sophie B?

And later we found out that she used both Russian and English while at Mommsen.

According to supporters. Again, was she traumatized out of Russian or not?

I think you forget here that the poor woman had forgotten more than languages, she could not even count past 10.

Then why would she suddenly remember the language she knew least?

According to Xenia, her English was good, but the grammar somewhat rusty. She went back to Germany in the late twenties and spent over 30 years there.

We will never know what really happened there, and how long she may have been coached before coming to the US. All I know is, in every tape and video I've ever seen of her, her English was pathetic.

I also took English lessons, and as you may have discovered, I also have a little knowledge of that language as well.

Well considering you're an American, I'm not surprised (and I know you're really an American and so do you )

According to medical reports from the AEG factory and statements from her own family, FS received no wounds from the explosion at the factory.

The family knew better, they were covering for her as they did with it all.

As for the records WHERE are they? One person claimed to have them, when I asked that person for proof they became angry but never produced them. I don't believe they exist, especially not after all these years and 2 world wars devastating Berlin and never being found during the trial. I am most skeptical. Massie's book and several other reliable sources state clearly FS was injured in the grenade factory, and suffered severe head injuries. The man next to her was pulverized before her eyes, you mean to say she didn't even get any schrapnel? It's been well documented for years she was hurt in the explosion, and you cannot prove otherwise.

AA spoke German very poorly.

Yet clearly it was her most comfortable, usable and favorite language to use.

According to the witness Sarsha Gregorian, she crossed the Dniestr into Moldova on December 5, 1918.

Who is this person? Are they aware that it's over 2000 miles from Ekaterinburg to Romania, and taking a cart on muddy back paths would have taken much longer. Don't forget the long and early winter, and the terrain they'd encounter along the way. See my website for more on just how unrealistic the alleged trip really was.

Dec. 5, 1918 was also the date she originally gave for the birth of her baby, meaning she would have had to have been pregnant well before July (and miraculously not miscarring during the execution and bumpy cart ride!) Of course now supporters like to change the dates, but it's well documented she said the baby was born that date and baptized a Catholic in Jan. 1919.

Those stories were kept confidential by the nurses on request from the unknown patient. The only one who was informed, was Dr. Chemnitz. See his testimony from Hamburg.

And Gleb Botkin. When she slipped into Russian, she would afterwards deny it and insist that she had spoken nothing but German.

Well you know what I think of the credibility of these people so let's not go there.

Gibbes was hired because the Grand Duchesses' English was "atrocious"

This was not because they didn't know English it was because they were speaking with Scottish dialect due to their nanny (from what I've read) It's not unusual to have a tutor for a language you already know, they also had a Russian tutor. It's well documented by those who knew them they spoke both English and Russian since babyhood.

[lexi4]

Annie,
You point our several times in the above post things that you say are well documented. Could you kindly refer me to the documentation?

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

She refused to have anything to do with the courts at all. In the beginning, she was not even agreeable to a lawsuit.

I imagine she must have been very afraid of being caught in her lie.

Only when she heard that Grand Duchess Xenia was suing for tsarist property in Europe did she agree to go ahead.

There is no denying it was about money. You may say it was her 'identity' but wouldn't an identity as AN get you the money? Same thing.

See Fallows notes about how AA spoke fluent Russian with Dr. Rudnev and Albert Coyle.

Rudnev was a backer. Not sure who the other guy was. Where are Fallows' notes, I heard his daughter wouldn't let them be published because the case 'killed' her father. Fallows was in on Grandanor with Gleb, and supported his sending of the rude letters, and Fallows himself actually wrote to Hitler trying to get support for AA's cause. So that's his rap sheet.

She apparently knew Russian perfectly well and demonstrated it on countless occasions. But when made aware of it, she clammed up and insisted that she could not understand, nor speak it. Only in 1938 when she had a really good mental period and felt happy, she opened up and spoke it freely. (See above)

Again, supporters, there is no evidence of these 'countless occasions' other than word of mouth from supporters. She NEVER proved in public or in court she was able to speak, read or write Russian. The contradiction on whether or not she was 'traumatized' still makes no sense.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by lexi4

Annie,
You point our several times in the above post things that you say are well documented. Could you kindly refer me to the documentation?

Name the specific things and I'll try to find it. I'm sure you've read the same books I have, and know what I'm talking about.

[lexi4]

Ok. Other than Massie, which I have read, where is there other documentation of FS's wounds from the explosion?
What documents are there that confirm Fallows letters to Hitler? Any documentation about his daughter prohibiting his notes from being published and her reasons?

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Who said that, and might they have mistaken Polish for Russian.

Again, Nurse Malinovsky spoke Polish to AA, and the latter did not respond. Nurse Bucholz, who had been a language teacher in RUSSIA, testified that AA spoke Russian like a native. Apparently even then, it was difficult to get her to use it.

Good for you. This doesn't apply to anyone else.

And how do you know this?

As I said, all these reports come from supporters. Grunberg was one of her most ardent early supporters. The nurses we may always wonder if they knew the difference between languages, or if they were trying to help her.

I don't think we can talk of supporters here, there was no sure identification made, and even Grünberg could not say who she was. He ended up throwing her out on her ear due to her stubbornness. And Conrad Wahl was only a bystander. As for the nurses not understanding the difference between Polish and Russian, that's " a line that would get lots of laughter in Berlin."

But, you say he's a liar.

Yes, after January, 1927, when he started his campaign against AA, he was caught in a lot of lies.

But why not speak it to native Russian speakers you'd known in your real ife such as Olga A., Felix Y, and Sophie B?

See my previous answer.

According to supporters. Again, was she traumatized out of Russian or not?

Traumatized she was, there is no doubt about that. She definitely suffered from a persecution complex, and in using Russian, she would disclose to the world who she was.

Then why would she suddenly remember the language she knew least?

A survival instinct? Trying to blend in.

We will never know what really happened there, and how long she may have been coached before coming to the US. All I know is, in every tape and video I've ever seen of her, her English was pathetic.

I think we very well know what happened here.

Well considering you're an American, I'm not surprised (and I know you're really an American and so do you )

I am not an American.

The family knew better, they were covering for her as they did with it all.

Covering for what? They were coaxed by Knopf to help along as much as possible, but Felix and Gertrude both denied any scars on FS's body.

As for the records WHERE are they? One person claimed to have them, when I asked that person for proof they became angry but never produced them. I don't believe they exist, especially not after all these years and 2 world wars devastating Berlin and never being found during the trial. I am most skeptical. Massie's book and several other reliable sources state clearly FS was injured in the grenade factory, and suffered severe head injuries. The man next to her was pulverized before her eyes, you mean to say she didn't even get any schrapnel? It's been well documented for years she was hurt in the explosion, and you cannot prove otherwise.

FS being hurt at the factory has never been well documented, only assumed.

Yet clearly it was her most comfortable, usable and favorite language to use.

Most convenient, I think, since she was in Germany.

Who is this person? Are they aware that it's over 2000 miles from Ekaterinburg to Romania, and taking a cart on muddy back paths would have taken much longer. Don't forget the long and early winter, and the terrain they'd encounter along the way. See my website for more on just how unrealistic the alleged trip really was.

Sarsha Gregorian was a worker at a monastery in Jassy who with his family fled Russia in 1918. He helped AA and her company (minus Alexander, who had traveled ahead) to cross the Dniestr on 12/05/1918. He was later, in May, paid 5000 lei for his assistance.
As for the trip, remember that they had a horse to draw the cart. Or the carts. According to AA the horses wore out and the carts broke down along the way, and they had to buy new ones. Something that was made possible from the sale of her jewels.

Dec. 5, 1918 was also the date she originally gave for the birth of her baby, meaning she would have had to have been pregnant well before July (and miraculously not miscarring during the execution and bumpy cart ride!) Of course now supporters like to change the dates, but it's well documented she said the baby was born that date and baptized a Catholic in Jan. 1919.

She did not originally give the date of 12/5/1918 as the birth of her boy, it was Baron Arthur von Kleist who gave that date. AA later complained bitterly about "the baron and his lies."

Well you know what I think of the credibility of these people so let's not go there.

Please give me an example of their lack of credibility.

This was not because they didn't know English it was because they were speaking with Scottish dialect due to their nanny (from what I've read) It's not unusual to have a tutor for a language you already know, they also had a Russian tutor. It's well documented by those who knew them they spoke both English and Russian since babyhood.

No doubt about that.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska