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  #201  
Old 07-16-2009, 11:12 AM
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Thanks a lot, you have been very clear, Elsa!
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  #202  
Old 07-16-2009, 12:25 PM
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Answering Elsa Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elsa M. View Post
Marialva is a Portuguese social stereotype...
Good Gracious !
What I read.
Marialvism did not start with José Cardoso Pires.
It comes from the XVIII century and takes it name after ... who would say (?) the 5th Marquis de Marialva.

http://www.geneall.net/P/per_page.php?id=32703

He was a keen horseman and bullfighter from the times of King D.José.
At that time, the aristocracy was idle, specially because they were not supposed to run any business, only their lands.
In the vast areas (lezírias) of Ribatejo mainly and also in Alentejo, they raised bulls, together with oxen and cows and thus the bullfight tradition got an impulse.

Kings D.Pedro II and D.Miguel were bullfighters themselves.
There is an anedocte according to which D.Miguel , while still a prince, let free a “garraio” (young bull) in Queluz Palace and provoked chaos among the RF ladies-in-waiting and other servants .
D.Carlos was also an aficionado, althought his complexion prevented him from participating .

Until the mid 19th century, bullfights and fado did not mixed, at least among the upper class, the one who produced the horsemen-bullfights or cavaleiros.
The Lisbon Fado (not to be confused with the Coimbra Fado – played and sung by the university students ) was a popular song played and sung in the “tascas” of Lisbon bas-fond .

The best representant of Marialvism, however, was not a Marialva but the 13th Count of Vimioso

http://www.geneall.net/P/per_page.php?id=22392

who took as mistress the famous fado singer “A Severa” .

When you say that marialvas are priviledged menwho live on the shadow of the family's name and estates you are truly mistaken:

For many years the “Cavaleiros” did come from ancient families such as the Marialvas, the Vimioso or the Count of Arcos (sure you know the text about the last bullfight in Portugal at the time of D.José- there is even a fado on that sad event), and in moder times the Ribeiro Telles.
Naturally they were the ones who could aford maintaining several horses.

But you are forgetting :

a) Most of modern days cavaleiros are not slightly related to the old families : João Moura, Paulo Caetano, Bastinhas, Rui Salvador, etc.;
b) Marialvism is under attack since nowadays there are Women Bullfighters, such as Sónia Matias, Ana Baptista, Isabel Ramos, etc. and there was of course the famous Conchita Citrón who “bullfighted” both on horseback and on foot

http://semanal.omirante.pt/noticia.asp?idEdicao=379&id=51394&idSeccao=5669&Action=noticia
http://www.maxima.xl.pt/0306/mc/100.shtml

c) that the “Toureiros a pé”, “Forcados” and “Campinos” who are in general humble and poorer men who work in the fields with horses and bulls and for many of them the Tourada is a kind of an initiation rict and a way to escape a not so underpriviledged destiny.

You are right about the Marialva’s 3 favourite animals, but not that right about the holy trinity of the 3 F’s: It’s Fátima, fado and football, not family.
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  #203  
Old 07-16-2009, 12:31 PM
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Answering Elsa and Regina

As to Regina question:
I wonder if they attend them because they really like to see a bull being punished or because the corridas are related to the old and good times in Portugal?

In my humble opinion, neither !
Though you may doubt, people attend because they like a true traditional show.
Nobody goes there to see a bull being punished but to see both the bull and the bullfighter show their bravoury and courage and the bullfighters perform their Art .
And some times -sadly- the bull is the winner .

As Elsa said, unlike Spain, the bull is not humiliated and killed in the arena as in Spain where they cut its ears and tail as a trophy to give to “el matador”.

As a reward of its performance his life is spared and often, after treatment, he is left free in the leziria to the rest of its days.

Bullfights are a transversal tradition that crosses the whole society, men and women, old and new, rich or poor.
Naturally the left-wingish raise the banner of the political incorrectness of the bullfight and there have been some mild riots when the anti-bullfights associations “plant themselves” at the door of Campo Pequeno – Lisbon arena, provoking the participants and attendants.

And a good "Marialva" never runs from a good fight and the anti-bullfights have to run away with their tails between their legs

They “forget” that if bullfights were to be prohibited, the bull would be another race in extinction as they are raised only to take part in corridas and as breeders.

Although more popular in the south, as I said, Póvoa do Varzim is the northist capital of the aficion

http://bolasetetouradas.blogspot.com/2009/07/1-grande-corrida-de-toiros-revista.html

Revista Flash will hold there its 1st tourada.

A very very very marialvist article :
Scroll to Monday August 8, 2005
http://ultimodosmarialvas.blogspot.com/2005_08_01_archive.html
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  #204  
Old 07-16-2009, 01:03 PM
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Of course "Marialvismo" originally takes the name from the Marquis of Marialva, but the social cliché in modern society is mostly defined in José Cardoso Pires' delicious treaty (which, by the way, makes a series a considerations about the tradition of the machist Marialva in the Portuguese society and literature: from D. Francisco Manuel de Melo in the 17th century up to the salazarist dictatorship)... don't underestimate me
But you're right in your account about the marquis... I very much enjoyed reading it

Oh, and the "holy trinity" was adapted by me in order to fit the Marialva's likings... you don't certainly imagine a good old Marialva putting on a t-shirt to spend Sunday watching football games on TV Unless, of course, it's a game of Sporting... the very noble club of the Vizcount of Alvalade
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  #205  
Old 07-17-2009, 12:15 PM
JSP JSP is offline
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Of course "Marialvismo" originally takes the name from the Marquis of Marialva, but the social cliché in modern society is mostly defined in José Cardoso Pires' delicious treaty (which, by the way, makes a series a considerations about the tradition of the machist Marialva in the Portuguese society and literature: from D. Francisco Manuel de Melo in the 17th century up to the salazarist dictatorship)... don't underestimate me
But you're right in your account about the marquis... I very much enjoyed reading it

Oh, and the "holy trinity" was adapted by me in order to fit the Marialva's likings...

I am schocked !
That's re-writing history .

you don't certainly imagine a good old Marialva putting on a t-shirt to spend Sunday watching football games on TV

Not a good old Marialva, but I know many new Marialvas who act like that

Unless, of course, it's a game of Sporting... the very noble club of the Marquis of Alvalade

There, you are right.
I am not a football aficionado but I grant you that Sporting is the most noble club .

Did you know that D.Carlos, who had an interest for most sports, attend the first Lisbon-Porto game ? Neither did I .
Nor that in the first years of the game the Club Internacional de Futebol defeated Real Madrid , the first time a portuguese team played abroad .

To keep it royalish, the spanish did not have little prince C.Ronaldo yet

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sporting_Clube_de_Portugal

Futebol em Portugal - Wikipédia, a enciclopédia livre
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  #206  
Old 07-17-2009, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
I am schocked !
That's re-writing history .
Oh, don't be shocked... rewriting history is what most every post-modernist do

"The first Lisbon-Porto game"? Who won?
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  #207  
Old 07-17-2009, 07:26 PM
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JSP and Elsa, thanks for your explanations, I (really) enjoy them.

But although I understand that some people enjoy touradas, I still dislike royals attending these shows. Animals were not Created to be hurt by humans without an important reason. No matter what some say, the bulls do get hurt. Men are to use animals, because animals are inferior to humans, but they are to protect them too. So I don't understand how royals who give beautiful speeches about environment and the need to protect nature, are the same who attend touradas...

I know that Bloco de Esquerda wants to forbid corridas but it doesnt mean that just because those anarchists thinks that, all who are against touradas must be lefty people! I have nothing to do with them, i am quite conservative but I still dislike these kind of spectacles.
I think many royals wouldn't like to attend a show like this, and they are not lefty. Queen Sofia dislikes touradas... and she is not an anarchist!

Rich and poor may like touradas but it is a show related to the old aristocracy, the same who still defend the mogardio system, who believe Portugal was a better country when it had an absolute monarchy system, and so on. Did you ever attend a noite dos conjurados? If you did, you know most people there are like I described... and that's so sad, IMO.

And I agree with Elsa about marialvas. Nuno da Câmara Pereira once said something like "na minha cozinha quem manda é a galinha". This means "In my kitchen, the boss is the chicken". The chicken is... the woman.

(Please, Elsa, just a request from me: spare my Sporting )
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  #208  
Old 07-19-2009, 10:19 AM
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I saw a news yesterday on a portuguese magazine about the oldest child of the Dukes. He was playing with a pressão de ar (I don't know what is the correct translation)... Did anyone read that?
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  #209  
Old 07-19-2009, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina View Post
JSP and Elsa, thanks for your explanations, I (really)
I think many royals wouldn't like to attend a show like this, and they are not lefty. Queen Sofia dislikes touradas... and she is not an anarchist!
You will probably know that one of the events of the Duke of Bragança's wedding was a Royal Bullfight Gala à Antiga Portuguesa.
And all the guests attended and apparently enjoyed.

I know Q.Sofia dislikes touradas, as much as her mother-in-law, the late Count of Barcelona, adored them.

I read that Elena is the more aficionada of the 3 siblings.
I expect Mummy Sofia would have taught them to dislike

Don't know about Juan Carlos but given his taste for killing previously drunken bears...
Maybe a case of public virtues and private vices .

Another grand aficionada is of couse the duchess of Alba , a woman so aficionada she even got a torero as son-in-law .

You said you dislike seeing royals attend touradas.
Any comments on them attending hunting parties ?
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  #210  
Old 07-19-2009, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina View Post

Rich and poor may like touradas but it is a show related to the old aristocracy, the same who still defend the mogardio system, who believe Portugal was a better country when it had an absolute monarchy system, and so on. )
There come the simplistic explanation.

Touradas are not related solely to the old aristocracy.
It would mean we have tons of aristocrats .

As I said before, "Toureio a cavalo" may be related to the old aristocracy, those who could aford maintaining several horses.
And it is well documented on the fact that today Cavaleiros still dress on the fashion of the XVIIIth century with their embroided coats and tricorn hats.
Much prettier than in Spain.
For those who can understand portuguese, you will understand the reason on the link below.

But "Toureio apeado" has always been the feud of the people, the campinos and field workers, who neither could aford a horse, nor were they allowed to compete with the aristocrats, the only ones who could tourear horse riding.

So, touradas are a transversal tradition, either on what concerns the people who like and pay to watch, and on what concerns the "actors" although nowadays you don't see any member of any aristocratic house acting in a tourada.

For those who never had the priviledge to see a Corrida de Gala à Antiga Portuguesa, follow the link below.
Don't worry ! It just shows the Cortezias that take place before the corrida on the 18th century fashion.

You won't see neither the bull, nor the Cavaleiros or Toureiros in action.
Enjoy it :



P.S. (lagarto, lagarto) "the same who still defend the mogardio system, who believe Portugal was a better country when it had an absolute monarchy system, and so on."

I guess I should defend the old morgadios :rolleyes2:.
After all, I am the elder of 3 brothers, and suddenly, the idea of shipping one of my brothers to the army and the other to the clergy seems very appealing .
As to the idea that the old absolute monarchy worked better than the new democratic republic, you don't want me to answer, do you ?

José
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  #211  
Old 07-28-2009, 09:33 AM
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The Duke of Bragança at the Lusophony Games (Jogos da Lusofonia), Lisbon, July 18th:

.: Jogos da Lusofonia :.
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  #212  
Old 07-29-2009, 03:35 PM
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The children posed for Flash magazine, during a horse riding lesson, right after another yellow magazine had published photos of Afonso playing with a compressed air gun, at the garden of their Summer house.
Like it happens every year, the family is spending vacations in the Algarve, but later they're planing to visit one of the archipelagos (Madeira or Açores) too.

http://img187.imagevenue.com/img.php...122_1131lo.jpg
http://img228.imagevenue.com/img.php..._122_481lo.jpg
http://img210.imagevenue.com/img.php..._122_499lo.jpg
(from Flash)
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  #213  
Old 07-29-2009, 07:00 PM
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Thanks for posting the pictures. It's nice they're having fun riding horses.
The youngest is such a cutie!
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  #214  
Old 07-30-2009, 04:24 PM
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Glad to see they visit the Islands also!

MM
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  #215  
Old 08-02-2009, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSP View Post
On today Revista Caras there is an article of the visit TRH made to Évora.
Unfortunately no photos at the bullfight, but a pic with D.Duarte's cousin AD Joseph von Habsburg (Jr) and his family.
Olá Semanário published now some photos too.

From a cocktail held at hotel Mar d'Ar Aqueduto, prior to the bullfight:

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/6496/ol3.jpg
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/1882/ol1.jpg
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/4289/ol2.jpg


From the bullfight:

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/3382/ol4.jpg
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/6663/ol5.jpg
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/5202/ol6.jpg
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/9633/ol7.jpg
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  #216  
Old 08-18-2009, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSP View Post
There come the simplistic explanation.

Touradas are not related solely to the old aristocracy.
It would mean we have tons of aristocrats .
All right, José, I didn't say that everyone attending a tourada is an aristocrat. But IMO a tourada is very related to the old aristocracy and its values... everyone knows that! It was one of the most popular shows among noble people...
What's a difference between a tourada and a chicken fight? There is no difference... Why these people who loves touradas... don't also enjoy a matança do porco? Yes, why not? You don't see nobles attending a matança, JSP, because that never was a royal tradition... (A matança do porco is a portuguese tradition where several men kill a pig using a huge dosis of cruelty).

Fighting or hunting just for the fun, is not regal, not merciful and not christian and portuguese aristocracy are to be regal, merciful and christian. If not, they are useless to our country.

Quote:
Don't worry ! It just shows the Cortezias that take place before the corrida on the 18th century fashion.

You won't see neither the bull, nor the Cavaleiros or Toureiros in action.
Enjoy it :
Yes, enjoy it because they won't see the bull and the toureiros in action! Everyone would always enjoy it if these espectáculos were always without a toureiro and a bull in action

Quote:
I guess I should defend the old morgadios :rolleyes2:.
After all, I am the elder of 3 brothers, and suddenly, the idea of shipping one of my brothers to the army and the other to the clergy seems very appealing .
Sounds tempting, doesn't it?

Quote:
As to the idea that the old absolute monarchy worked better than the new democratic republic, you don't want me to answer, do you ?
All I know is that I wouldn't like to live in an absolute monarchy with Dom Duarte or Poidimani, or Nuno da Câmara Pereira as our absolute King.
Well, nowadays you can go and voting... didn't you enjoy when Mr. Socrates and Mr. Vital lost in the last Europeias? I did! And so Paulo Portas! So at least now (in democracy) we can have these strong emotions from time to time hehe!
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  #217  
Old 08-24-2009, 12:21 PM
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An interview to the Duke of Bragança was published on Youtube:

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Old 08-31-2009, 03:43 PM
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The Duke and the Duchess of Bragança attended the wedding
of Prince Lucas von Auersperg and Princess Alice von Bayern,
August 29, 2009 in Andechs, Germany.

----> Pic

More about the wedding can be found here.
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  #219  
Old 09-02-2009, 04:33 PM
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Enough with this suit!... Doesn't she have any other clothes to attend royal gatherings? Seriously.
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  #220  
Old 09-17-2009, 11:16 AM
JSP JSP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elsa M. View Post
Enough with this suit!... Doesn't she have any other clothes to attend royal gatherings? Seriously.

Hmmm, I might agree with you, but there is always the "Crisis argument"

We, men, are luckier.
We do not have to bother with the "trapos" when invited for a wedding
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