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  #101  
Old 11-08-2008, 07:52 PM
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Olá, Portugal!

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Originally Posted by Portugal View Post
Hello Regina!

The Pact of Dover did exist.• Vendo Tópico - Março 10 1912 'Pact de Dover acordo' falou sogra D. Miguel

That article was written just three months after the meeting of the same year.

As far as everything else not being born on portuguese soil,it does not matter because of the pact of dover.It does not make anysense to say Dom Duarte Pio Braganca is not the rightful heir because he was not born in Portugal.
With all the respect Portugal, but IMO this article doesn't prove anything. This lady, Mrs. J. H. Smith, was just trying to put herself away. As she says "therefore I see no necessity for me to finance an attempt at a revolution to restore the monarchy, which might lead to my daughter's divorce".

Where is a copy of the Pact? Something with signatures?

***
I don't know if D. Miguel's renouce was valid. Maybe it was... but think with me:

While a person can renounce for himself... he can't renouce for his descendants (especially for children born with full succession rights), correct?

Anita was raised by Emperor Franz Joseph at the rank of Princess... she was Not a simple commoner. Miguel and Anita has children. No Portuguese law permitted a future renunciation on these terms.

His renounce was a political act (not based on the constitution or legitimism). I'm wondering if this was a valid renounce...

Just to tell you that Anita, a strong and self confident lady, was very angry at what had happened and cut off all the relationship with her husband's family...

Miguel and Anita had 3 children:

*Dª Isabel Maria de Bragança (no children)
*D. João Miguel de Bragança (no children)
*D. Miguel de Bragança, who married Anne Hughson (a North American). Have 2 children, and they live in United States. One of them has no children, and the other one (Anita) does have children.

......

Maybe we have just found out new pretenders to the Throne of Portugal
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  #102  
Old 11-09-2008, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina View Post
Olá, Portugal!



With all the respect Portugal, but IMO this article doesn't prove anything. This lady, Mrs. J. H. Smith, was just trying to put herself away. As she says "therefore I see no necessity for me to finance an attempt at a revolution to restore the monarchy, which might lead to my daughter's divorce".
It proves it did take place and D.Miguel's mother in law was contacted and was told about the Pact.Do you honestly believe she would make that up??


She did not want to finance because as she was told her daughter would not be made queen and that D.Miguel had to
"renounce his heritage and the throne would go to the third son".
It was not in the interest of Mrs. Smith to support a revolution.Which of course was a big gamble anyway with no gain for her or her daughter.

But as you are aware revolts did take place regardless if Anita Stewarts mother supported her son in law.




Quote:
Where is a copy of the Pact? Something with signatures?
That is a good question and from my understanding it was a gentleman's agreeance.But with further research I am sure even without a "copy" it was understood by all what had taken place.Even with out what D.Miguel's mother in law had said just three months after the Pact had taken place.


Quote:
Anita was raised by Emperor Franz Joseph at the rank of Princess... she was Not a simple commoner. Miguel and Anita has children.
But she was a commoner a wealthy one at that.


Quote:
I don't know if D. Miguel's renouce was valid. Maybe it was... but

Just to tell you that Anita, a strong and self confident lady, was very angry at what had happened and cut off all the relationship with her husband's family...
Proof that she did not agree with the Pact of Dover.


Anyway,some really interesting tid bit's of portuguese history.I am glad I found this messageboard.
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  #103  
Old 11-10-2008, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Elsa M. View Post
The Duke of Loulé descends from Infanta Ana de Jesus de Bragança (the sister of Kings D. Pedro IV and D. Miguel). His claim is based on that D. Pedro's line ended with King D. Manuel II and D. Miguel's line has lost the right to the succession since the 1834 constitution.

You mean Infanta Maria Ana de Bragança? Her children were not born in Portugal, so they are all excluded.

D.Augusto, count of Azambuja was born is Lisbon.

He's the one who married the Ferreirinha's daughter and was so cynically portrayed at the TV series.

Loulé
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  #104  
Old 11-10-2008, 11:55 AM
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What happened to the vast fortunes of Anita and her mother's ?
Vanished in the 1929 crisis ?

The American Braganzas never seemed to be "swimming in money" as we say...

AFAIK one of them was a pilot for TWA or some other flying company.
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  #105  
Old 11-10-2008, 12:19 PM
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I believe the Petrepolis branch of the family was rather wealthy, on all accounts the late countess of Paris brought a vast fortune into the French RF when she married the late count. Sadly he used it all for his own lifestyle and mistress.
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  #106  
Old 11-10-2008, 12:52 PM
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You can search The New York Times - Breaking News, World News & Multimedia online.I am actually interested on what items they inherited which once belong to portuguese royalty.

I am also interested on the catalogue of Nevada Stoody Hayes,I would love to know what exactly sold at 'Warren Piper of Chicago'.She had owned some interesting peices for example

This painting,now in the marine museum in Portugal.It was acquired from Nevada Stoody Hayes from the Foundation of the House of Braganca.

Património Cultural da Marinha

She [Nevada Stoody Hayes] also inherited this historical brooch which is now in the British Museum.
The Braganza Brooch
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  #107  
Old 11-12-2008, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Portugal View Post
It proves it did take place and D.Miguel's mother in law was contacted and was told about the Pact.Do you honestly believe she would make that up??
Maybe she didn't lie but it doesn't mean she said the entire truth about that meeting. We can never know unless we have a formal document.


Quote:
That is a good question and from my understanding it was a gentleman's agreeance.But with further research I am sure even without a "copy" it was understood by all what had taken place.
A gentleman's agreement has no value in our days. We can never be sure about of what they really said on that event. For D. Duarte's supporters a gentleman's agreement has a legal value, for those who don't support him it has no legal value. Clear as water. Without a legal document and signatures, a gentlemen's agreement can be questioned by all parts.

Quote:
Anyway,some really interesting tid bit's of portuguese history.I am glad I found this messageboard.
Be welcome, Portugal!


Quote:
Originally Posted by JSP View Post
What happened to the vast fortunes of Anita and her mother's ?
Vanished in the 1929 crisis ?

The American Braganzas never seemed to be "swimming in money" as we say...
Interesting question.

Does anyone know what Anita's children and grandchildren do for a living in USA?
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  #108  
Old 11-30-2008, 06:42 PM
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After the extinction of the Avis line, the Queen-Dowager Catherine de Medici of France put forward her own claims to the Portuguese throne, hoping to make herself Queen-regnant of Portugal or alternatively secure the throne for one of her sons - maybe even bring Portugal and France into a personal union powerful enough to stand up to the Habsburg's, both as colonial powers and on the European mainland itself (France was always worried by Habsburg encirclement).

Her claims were inherited by her granddaughter, the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, and since she left no heirs, by the heirs of her sister, the Archduchess Catalina Micaela.

Thus, it is the senior line descendant of Catalina Micaela who is the rightful King of Portugal and the Algarves today
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  #109  
Old 11-30-2008, 07:12 PM
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WOW! A New pretender to the Portuguese throne ........

I still think Francisco van Uden is the rightful King but I recognize this is a very dificult issue and there are several lines that could in fact fulfil the royal requirements.
Let me study a bit more about Catherine de Medici and Archduchess Catalina Micaela. I'll be back soon
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  #110  
Old 12-01-2008, 08:16 AM
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The current heir of Catherine de Medici is Herzog Franz von Bayern, Duke Francis of Bavaria.

He is thus the heir of any claims she might have had to the crown of Portugal and the Algarves.

Interestingly, he is also the legitimate, direct, senior line heir of the Stuart dynasty, and therefore the crowns of England, Scotland, and Ireland, as well as the English royal house's right to the French throne (derived from Edward III and Henry V) and the Duchy of Normandy (derived from his distant ancestor William the Conqueror, Duke of Normandy).

If I'm not mistaken, the Viking-Norman dukes descended from Norwegian/Orkney royal houses, so maybe he has some claims up there too

As he has no children, his heir is his brother Maximilian and then the latter's daughter Sophie, hereditary Princess of Liechtenstein.

So...King Francisco de Portugal, e Infante Massimiliano, e Infanta Sofia, future Sofia Ia, Rainha de Portugal e Algarves.

=================================================

I have researched Catherine de Medici's pedigree time and time again and have had difficulty ascertaining where exactly she derived her claim from. I read this first in a book, some years ago, but the book did not give it much attention, only a few sentences: basically, she put forward her claim but was ignored given the existence of more popular Portuguese claimants (junior branches of Avis and royal bastards), Duke Ranuccio of Parma and King Philip of Spain.

All of Catherine de Medici's royal and noble blood comes through her mother, Madeleine de la Tour d'Auvergne, a cousin of the French royal house, since her father Lorenzo de Medici, Duke of Urbino, was basically of peasant blood. However, its quite hard to trace back all of the de la Tour d'Auvergne family and the families they married into, one just ends up getting lost in a huge maze of French nobility...and not every grandfather, grandmother, great-grandfather, etc, of everybody the de la Tour d'Auvergne's married into are on wikipedia.
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  #111  
Old 12-04-2008, 10:50 PM
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There is no question in my mind that Dom Duarte Pio is the rightful heir.Even during D.Manuel II and after his death portuguese monarchists have always (in majority) supported D.Duarte Pio.
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  #112  
Old 12-05-2008, 03:05 AM
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There is no question in my mind that Dom Duarte Pio is the rightful heir.Even during D.Manuel II and after his death portuguese monarchists have always (in majority) supported D.Duarte Pio.
Exactly. I couldn´t agree more.
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  #113  
Old 12-05-2008, 06:08 AM
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According to the biography of Catherina de Medici by Leonie Frieda, her claim to the Portuguese throne was through her mother, who was a descendent from king Affonso III and Matilda countess of Boulogne a daughter of Renaud Count de Dammartin and Ides of Lorraine, countess of Boulogne, in the 13th century. This giving her a superior genealogical claim to the present claimants, who descend from Affonsso III's dubiously legal sceond marriage.
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  #114  
Old 12-05-2008, 06:23 AM
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What about the Loulé's pretensions? do you think are justified? I heard they are still active and they want to re-activate an old Order of Knighthood called Sao Sabastiao, da Frecha. It seems that still now this order was for the family members only, but not in the future...
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  #115  
Old 12-05-2008, 06:59 AM
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Regardless of the Duke of Loule´s right to the throne, the title in itself is a fairly recent one. It was created in 1862. Before that the family held the title of Marquess which itself only dated from 1799 so it really didn´t give that much time for a family order to have such an old tradition.
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  #116  
Old 12-05-2008, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Menarue View Post
Regardless of the Duke of Loule´s right to the throne, the title in itself is a fairly recent one. It was created in 1862. Before that the family held the title of Marquess which itself only dated from 1799 so it really didn´t give that much time for a family order to have such an old tradition.
I do not know the Portuguese laws but I think that the fact to be a descendent of the Royal family (in the feminine line) does not give rights to the Throne...
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  #117  
Old 12-05-2008, 09:39 AM
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I actually didn´t mean to use the word right, I meant to say claim to the throne......
I really don´t think any of the pretenders will ever get the throne, the Republic seems to be firmly implanted - but you never know.If in the future something happens to change this then they will just have to fight it out, but for now D. Duarte is recognized by most monarchists.
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  #118  
Old 12-05-2008, 11:51 AM
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I actually didn´t mean to use the word right, I meant to say claim to the throne......
I really don´t think any of the pretenders will ever get the throne, the Republic seems to be firmly implanted - but you never know.If in the future something happens to change this then they will just have to fight it out, but for now D. Duarte is recognized by most monarchists.
Yes, of course it is to read "claim", in case of a restauration the choice to the people! democracy!
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  #119  
Old 12-05-2008, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Velasco View Post
According to the biography of Catherina de Medici by Leonie Frieda, her claim to the Portuguese throne was through her mother, who was a descendent from king Affonso III and Matilda countess of Boulogne a daughter of Renaud Count de Dammartin and Ides of Lorraine, countess of Boulogne, in the 13th century. This giving her a superior genealogical claim to the present claimants, who descend from Affonsso III's dubiously legal sceond marriage.

Too bad that she was the only one who could find - or, better said, to order a priest to invent in the old genealogic books - a child from that childless marriage
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  #120  
Old 12-06-2008, 07:23 PM
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Velasco, thanks for your interesting posts, I didn't know Herzog Franz von Bayern who claims to be the rightful heir to the British Crown under the Stuart line had claims about the Portuguese Throne. Well nowadays it seems the Portuguese throne is quite popular LOL!

So let's see: Catherine de Medici's mother was Madeleine de la Tour d'Auvergne who is, according to Catherina a descendent from King Afonso III.
Madeleine's parents were Jean III de la Tour and Jeanne de Bourbon-Vendôme. Which of them descends from Afonso III?
Afonso III had many sons and daughters. I can't see the link between all these people.


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I do not know the Portuguese laws but I think that the fact to be a descendent of the Royal family (in the feminine line) does not give rights to the Throne...
It does give rights but male children succeed before female.
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