Claims to the Portuguese Throne

[Menarue]

I hadn´t realised that Regina, I will have to study some family trees a bit more.
I doubt very much if any one of the pretenders will ever be more than that but that doesn´t stop us from speculating. As long as Poidimani keeps away from Portugal and any royal residence, I am fine.

[Count]

I agree with you Menarue for Poidimani.

Regina, Heads of European Royal Families ask not the question "who is the Head of the Royal House of Portugal" because it is understood that the answer is: Dom Duarte Pio...
For other Royal Families there is a doubt, ie Two Sicilies, at the moment we have Don Carlos (living in Madrid) and Carlo (living in Rome), here all books of nobility say that there are two people claiming the title of Head of the House...
Royals and nobles are divided into supporters of Carlos and supporters of Carlo, it depends from their personal contacts and relations with them.

[Marengo]

Exactly Count, I usually wonder why it is so important that he is born abroad to some. In the Germanic culture somebody can live abroad for many generations and still be considered German for example. That is how all the Germans from that settled in Eastern Europe over the centuries could return to Germany after WII (untill Chansellor Schreuder changed the law a few years ago). Likewise in my own country the 3rd or 4th generation immigrants are usually still called 'Turkish', ' Maroccan' etc. by many. Not that is a good thing of course, but it happens.

Likewise the way of reasoning that somebody has to be born in a country will make sure that many royal families will have no claimants at all, considering many were exiled.

[Count]

Originally Posted by Marengo

Exactly Count, I usually wonder why it is so important that he is born abroad to some. In the Germanic culture somebody can live abroad for many generations and still be considered German for example. That is how all the Germans from that settled in Eastern Europe over the centuries could return to Germany after WII (untill Chansellor Schreuder changed the law a few years ago). Likewise in my own country the 3rd or 4th generation immigrants are usually still called 'Turkish', ' Maroccan' etc. by many. Not that is a good thing of course, but it happens.

Likewise the way of reasoning that somebody has to be born in a country will make sure that many royal families will have no claimants at all, considering many were exiled.

Exactly, I heard for example that Hebrews can ask for the citizenship of Israel even if they are born in the USA, Gemany, Italy etc...

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Count

Exactly, I heard for example that Hebrews can ask for the citizenship of Israel even if they are born in the USA, Gemany, Italy etc...

I don't know what the actual reasoning was for the requirement on monarchs to be born on Portuguese soil, but could the following argument be used? By requiring a monarch to be born in the "home" country, this would provide a better chance of that person, who would be the future ruler, of growing up in the culture and being seen as sharing the same culture and history with the people (It would allow a better chance for the future ruler to identify with the people). Also, by being born and raised in another country, the future ruler's loyalties may be divided between the two countries, and the requirement would be an attempt to avoid divided loyalties. I'm probably off base on this, but I was just trying to understand what the logic might be.

What was the original reasoning?

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Menarue

As long as Poidimani keeps away from Portugal and any royal residence, I am fine.

Yes, indeed. Poidimani wouldn't be accepted, anyway.

Originally Posted by Count

For other Royal Families there is a doubt, ie Two Sicilies, at the moment we have Don Carlos (living in Madrid) and Carlo (living in Rome), here all books of nobility say that there are two people claiming the title of Head of the House...
Royals and nobles are divided into supporters of Carlos and supporters of Carlo, it depends from their personal contacts and relations with them.

Ok Count, there are also two men who claim the title of Duke d'Anjou. But the House of Braganza has not the same weight as other Houses have. Other Royal Houses simply don't care who is the Head of the House of Braganza, they accept D. Duarte because his father claimed the Title, and none confronted him at the time. Everyone (except Queen Amelia and few others) accepted him as the Head of the House. But thank God, in our days people don't accept everything just like that anymore and some monarchists here and then have the courage to write books or blogs in the internet calling our attention to what they think is wrong on D. Duarte life story. I don't support Poidimani or Duke of Loule, but at least they made many think about this Claims to the portuguese throne topic. And they have all the right to protest against D. Duarte's claims, IMO.

Originally Posted by Marengo

Exactly Count, I usually wonder why it is so important that he is born abroad to some. In the Germanic culture somebody can live abroad for many generations and still be considered German for example. That is how all the Germans from that settled in Eastern Europe over the centuries could return to Germany after WII (untill Chansellor Schreuder changed the law a few years ago). Likewise in my own country the 3rd or 4th generation immigrants are usually still called 'Turkish', ' Maroccan' etc. by many. Not that is a good thing of course, but it happens.

Yes, it happens, but we are not talking about common people, but about the Head of a Royal House.

Likewise the way of reasoning that somebody has to be born in a country will make sure that many royal families will have no claimants at all, considering many were exiled.

This is not only about his birth place. D. Duarte Nuno was undoubtedly the legal heir of his grandfather (Miguel I), but the doubt is if he was the legal heir of the last reigning King of Portugal, Manuel II.

The Constitution of 1826 (articles 87 and 88) stated that the throne should pass first to the descendants of Queen Maria II (from whom Duarte Nuno was not descended) and only when they were extinct to collateral heirs.

Queen Maria II had living descendants, but none of these had Portuguese nationality! Duarte Nuno and these descendents were in the same position (they didn't have the Portuguese nationality), since the article 89 of the Constitution of 1826 stated that "no foreigner can succeed to the crown of the kingdom of Portugal". When D. Duarte Pio was born he was a foreigner. So how can he be accepted as the Head of the Royal House? If someone can answer me to that, I'll change my mind

When a (very) small minority of monarchists looked for another candidate than D. Duarte Nuno, they found that D. Manuel's heir was Crown Prince George of Saxony, a great-grandson ofMaria II, but he was not Portuguese (as was required by Portuguese law for the succession!) AND he was also a Catholic priest.

The closest heir who is undoubtedly Portuguese is Francisco van Uden, who should be more resolute about his rights. Some people say he knows Portugal wont be a monarchy again so he doesn't want problems with his cousin. But IMO he should claim the Title of Duke of Braganza for himself. First, because the title belongs to him (according to the Constitutions) and Second, because if you read their interviews (or if you ever have talked with them) you'll notice that Francisco is much smarter and wise (IMO).

Originally Posted by Keith

Also, by being born and raised in another country, the future ruler's loyalties may be divided between the two countries, and the requirement would be an attempt to avoid divided loyalties. I'm probably off base on this, but I was just trying to understand what the logic might be.

What was the original reasoning?

Keith, I can only tell you my personal opinion about this, since I don't know for sure what was the original reasoning. But see the story of D. Miguel II:
D. Miguel II (D. Duarte's grandfather), was born in Germany. During WWI he held a rank in the Austrian army. He resigned in 1917 when Portugal entered the conflict on the opposite side. The question is which side was he really on?

So, I believe the original reasoning was to avoid divided loyalties, as you wrote.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Regina

The closest heir who is undoubtedly Portuguese is Francisco van Uden, who should be more resolute about his rights. Some people say he knows Portugal wont be a monarchy again so he doesn't want problems with his cousin. But IMO he should claim the Title of Duke of Braganza for himself. First, because the title belongs to him (according to the Constitutions) and Second, because if you read their interviews (or if you ever have talked with them) you'll notice that Francisco is much smarter and wise (IMO).

But if the issue of legal heir is not resolved now, will this not cause greater difficulties if in future generations the claim is challenged? It would seem that if Francisco van Uden will not confront the issue and have it resolved one way or another, then complications in the future could result if descendents of van Uden challenge the descendents of D. Duarte Pio. Of course, if he does not challenge, then is he tacitly recognizing D. Duarte's claim, and thereby resolving the issue?

[Menarue]

Originally Posted by Regina

Regina.
Maybe some day his son shows a more resolute interest for the Title. If he doesn't, D. Afonso (Duarte's son) will be known as the future Duke of Braganza., Poidimani's son will continue his father's mission and maybe the Duke of Loule' son will find a fado singer who will write the "Usurpador II" (book) I am kidding, basically, everything will remain the same as it is now.

Many a truth is said in jest (or words to that effect). Ha ha Regina.

[Marengo]

Well, considering Mr. da Camara Pereira's ultra-ultra-conservative views it isn't a big loss for D. Duarte IMHO.

[Menarue]

Keith my favourite fado singer in the younger generation is Maria Ana Bobone.
If you can listen to her. Beautiful girl with a beautiful voice.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Menarue

Keith my favourite fado singer in the younger generation is Maria Ana Bobone.
If you can listen to her. Beautiful girl with a beautiful voice.

Menarue, I have listened to Maria Ana Bobone and yes, she has a beautiful voice. I have a DVD coming, "Fado Today", that has the performances of Maria Ana Bobone. Also, the next CD I intend to purchase is her "Senhora Da Lapa" (This seems to be the only one available in the US).

And Regina, I have also listened to Cristina Branco and I like her as well. Actually I had order two DVD's, "Fado Today", and the second one has her performances.

Fortunately, all the CD's I have purchased come with the lyrics in both English and Portuguese. But I have started to try (With the emphasis on "try") to teach myself a little Portuguese.

Anyway, I must apologize to everyone for this digression since I am off topic. But just thought I would respond to Menarue's and Regina's recommendations.

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Keith

Fortunately, all the CD's I have purchased come with the lyrics in both English and Portuguese. But I have started to try (With the emphasis on "try") to teach myself a little Portuguese.

If you need some help, PM me, I'll be glad to help.

[Menarue]

Originally Posted by Keith

Menarue, I have listened to Maria Ana Bobone and yes, she has a beautiful voice. I have a DVD coming, "Fado Today", that has the performances of Maria Ana Bobone. Also, the next CD I intend to purchase is her "Senhora Da Lapa" (This seems to be the only one available in the US).

And Regina, I have also listened to Cristina Branco and I like her as well. Actually I had order two DVD's, "Fado Today", and the second one has her performances.

Fortunately, all the CD's I have purchased come with the lyrics in both English and Portuguese. But I have started to try (With the emphasis on "try") to teach myself a little Portuguese.

Anyway, I must apologize to everyone for this digression since I am off topic. But just thought I would respond to Menarue's and Regina's recommendations.

I am very glad you did Keith and I hope that you continue to enjoy Fado as well as all this controversy about a non-existent throne.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Menarue

I am very glad you did Keith and I hope that you continue to enjoy Fado as well as all this controversy about a non-existent throne.

Thank you, and in fact I am listening to Ana Moura as I write this reply. In regard to the "throne", even though it is non-existent it is still integral to Portugal's history and therefore a wonderful tradition to maintain, and I would think that it still provides a point of unity and pride for the Portuguese people. From my perspective it seems to provide a depth to the Portuguese heritage. I am glad that you and others have this forum to continue the richness of that heritage.

[Menarue]

So am I.
I am reading a really enjoyable book called "Filipa de Lencastre" A rainha que mudou Portugal (The Queen who Changed Portugal) by Isabel Stilwell. I don´t know if it is translated into English yet but when it is you must read it.
As it is historically correct but written more as a novel it is very easy reading unlike some very dry historical books. I read them all, dry or not, but this one has been a welcome change.

[Danny SR]

Regina it was an illegal act under the monarchy, in my thinking, and might or may not be right, since the republic had thrown out the constitutional letter of 1826 and replaced it with a republican one, then D. Duarte's family wasnt the only ones not allowed but the whole royal family. Since technically that branch of the family had no royal rights then wouldnt they had be able to step foot on portuguese soil? I think if this had been taken to court before salazar's actions and used that defence I belive they wouldnt have won, so really D. Duarte Nuno and his family would have been able to legaly step foot on portuguese soil, just as Maria Pia when she declared she was Duchesse of Braganca.

[Danny SR]

I must addmit I have never seen the birth certificate before but the embassy is in Bern, Switzerland so that is right, so it reallt doesnt prove or disprove anything. I know that if someone is born on a American militar base anywhere in the world they are american and the birth certificate would say name of base, USA. But I dont know how it works in other countries. At the end of the day only those who where there know exactly what happened. But one has to think that if in fact he was born in the embassy, which I dont think he is lieing about, there must be a record of it in the embassy, just look there...lol

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Danny SR

I must addmit I have never seen the birth certificate before but the embassy is in Bern, Switzerland so that is right, so it reallt doesnt prove or disprove anything. I know that if someone is born on a American militar base anywhere in the world they are american and the birth certificate would say name of base, USA. But I dont know how it works in other countries. At the end of the day only those who where there know exactly what happened. But one has to think that if in fact he was born in the embassy, which I dont think he is lieing about, there must be a record of it in the embassy, just look there...lol

If someone is born on an American militar base, the birth certificate will mention that, as you said. The same should be applied for Embassies

I agree with you, the document doesn't prove anything. If we believe or not that he was born in Portugal that's up with us. It's always a personal opinion. The reality is that till now I've never seen any (official) document declaring he was born in Portuguese soil.

[Count]

Originally Posted by Regina

If someone is born on an American militar base, the birth certificate will mention that, as you said. The same should be applied for Embassies

I agree with you, the document doesn't prove anything. If we believe or not that he was born in Portugal that's up with us. It's always a personal opinion. The reality is that till now I've never seen any (official) document declaring he was born in Portuguese soil.

It not important where a person (in exile) was born...Don Juan Carlos was born in Rome during the exile of the Royal family and he is the King of Spain... that's why he speaks perfect Italian.

[JSP]

I guess one could always try the Portuguese Foreign Office.
There shpuld be any record of such (unusual) event.