Claims to the Portuguese Throne

[Count]

Originally Posted by Marengo

Exactly Count, I usually wonder why it is so important that he is born abroad to some. In the Germanic culture somebody can live abroad for many generations and still be considered German for example. That is how all the Germans from that settled in Eastern Europe over the centuries could return to Germany after WII (untill Chansellor Schreuder changed the law a few years ago). Likewise in my own country the 3rd or 4th generation immigrants are usually still called 'Turkish', ' Maroccan' etc. by many. Not that is a good thing of course, but it happens.

Likewise the way of reasoning that somebody has to be born in a country will make sure that many royal families will have no claimants at all, considering many were exiled.

Exactly, I heard for example that Hebrews can ask for the citizenship of Israel even if they are born in the USA, Gemany, Italy etc...

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Count

Exactly, I heard for example that Hebrews can ask for the citizenship of Israel even if they are born in the USA, Gemany, Italy etc...

I don't know what the actual reasoning was for the requirement on monarchs to be born on Portuguese soil, but could the following argument be used? By requiring a monarch to be born in the "home" country, this would provide a better chance of that person, who would be the future ruler, of growing up in the culture and being seen as sharing the same culture and history with the people (It would allow a better chance for the future ruler to identify with the people). Also, by being born and raised in another country, the future ruler's loyalties may be divided between the two countries, and the requirement would be an attempt to avoid divided loyalties. I'm probably off base on this, but I was just trying to understand what the logic might be.

What was the original reasoning?

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Menarue

As long as Poidimani keeps away from Portugal and any royal residence, I am fine.

Yes, indeed. Poidimani wouldn't be accepted, anyway.

Originally Posted by Count

For other Royal Families there is a doubt, ie Two Sicilies, at the moment we have Don Carlos (living in Madrid) and Carlo (living in Rome), here all books of nobility say that there are two people claiming the title of Head of the House...
Royals and nobles are divided into supporters of Carlos and supporters of Carlo, it depends from their personal contacts and relations with them.

Ok Count, there are also two men who claim the title of Duke d'Anjou. But the House of Braganza has not the same weight as other Houses have. Other Royal Houses simply don't care who is the Head of the House of Braganza, they accept D. Duarte because his father claimed the Title, and none confronted him at the time. Everyone (except Queen Amelia and few others) accepted him as the Head of the House. But thank God, in our days people don't accept everything just like that anymore and some monarchists here and then have the courage to write books or blogs in the internet calling our attention to what they think is wrong on D. Duarte life story. I don't support Poidimani or Duke of Loule, but at least they made many think about this Claims to the portuguese throne topic. And they have all the right to protest against D. Duarte's claims, IMO.

Originally Posted by Marengo

Exactly Count, I usually wonder why it is so important that he is born abroad to some. In the Germanic culture somebody can live abroad for many generations and still be considered German for example. That is how all the Germans from that settled in Eastern Europe over the centuries could return to Germany after WII (untill Chansellor Schreuder changed the law a few years ago). Likewise in my own country the 3rd or 4th generation immigrants are usually still called 'Turkish', ' Maroccan' etc. by many. Not that is a good thing of course, but it happens.

Yes, it happens, but we are not talking about common people, but about the Head of a Royal House.

Likewise the way of reasoning that somebody has to be born in a country will make sure that many royal families will have no claimants at all, considering many were exiled.

This is not only about his birth place. D. Duarte Nuno was undoubtedly the legal heir of his grandfather (Miguel I), but the doubt is if he was the legal heir of the last reigning King of Portugal, Manuel II.

The Constitution of 1826 (articles 87 and 88) stated that the throne should pass first to the descendants of Queen Maria II (from whom Duarte Nuno was not descended) and only when they were extinct to collateral heirs.

Queen Maria II had living descendants, but none of these had Portuguese nationality! Duarte Nuno and these descendents were in the same position (they didn't have the Portuguese nationality), since the article 89 of the Constitution of 1826 stated that "no foreigner can succeed to the crown of the kingdom of Portugal". When D. Duarte Pio was born he was a foreigner. So how can he be accepted as the Head of the Royal House? If someone can answer me to that, I'll change my mind

When a (very) small minority of monarchists looked for another candidate than D. Duarte Nuno, they found that D. Manuel's heir was Crown Prince George of Saxony, a great-grandson ofMaria II, but he was not Portuguese (as was required by Portuguese law for the succession!) AND he was also a Catholic priest.

The closest heir who is undoubtedly Portuguese is Francisco van Uden, who should be more resolute about his rights. Some people say he knows Portugal wont be a monarchy again so he doesn't want problems with his cousin. But IMO he should claim the Title of Duke of Braganza for himself. First, because the title belongs to him (according to the Constitutions) and Second, because if you read their interviews (or if you ever have talked with them) you'll notice that Francisco is much smarter and wise (IMO).

Originally Posted by Keith

Also, by being born and raised in another country, the future ruler's loyalties may be divided between the two countries, and the requirement would be an attempt to avoid divided loyalties. I'm probably off base on this, but I was just trying to understand what the logic might be.

What was the original reasoning?

Keith, I can only tell you my personal opinion about this, since I don't know for sure what was the original reasoning. But see the story of D. Miguel II:
D. Miguel II (D. Duarte's grandfather), was born in Germany. During WWI he held a rank in the Austrian army. He resigned in 1917 when Portugal entered the conflict on the opposite side. The question is which side was he really on?

So, I believe the original reasoning was to avoid divided loyalties, as you wrote.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Regina

The closest heir who is undoubtedly Portuguese is Francisco van Uden, who should be more resolute about his rights. Some people say he knows Portugal wont be a monarchy again so he doesn't want problems with his cousin. But IMO he should claim the Title of Duke of Braganza for himself. First, because the title belongs to him (according to the Constitutions) and Second, because if you read their interviews (or if you ever have talked with them) you'll notice that Francisco is much smarter and wise (IMO).

But if the issue of legal heir is not resolved now, will this not cause greater difficulties if in future generations the claim is challenged? It would seem that if Francisco van Uden will not confront the issue and have it resolved one way or another, then complications in the future could result if descendents of van Uden challenge the descendents of D. Duarte Pio. Of course, if he does not challenge, then is he tacitly recognizing D. Duarte's claim, and thereby resolving the issue?

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Keith

But if the issue of legal heir is not resolved now, will this not cause greater difficulties if in future generations the claim is challenged? It would seem that if Francisco van Uden will not confront the issue and have it resolved one way or another, then complications in the future could result if descendents of van Uden challenge the descendents of D. Duarte Pio. Of course, if he does not challenge, then is he tacitly recognizing D. Duarte's claim, and thereby resolving the issue?

Keith, IMO, there are several reasons for Francisco's silence.
Let's not forget he is a successful manager, and if he decided to left his businesses because of an hypothetic title, he would probably lost many financial benefits. With his full time job he couldn't accept to be present on many social and cultural events all over the country. I don't know if this is a real reason for him, it's just my personal opinion.

The second reason is probably because he doesn't want to loose his friendship with his cousin. Francisco knows Portugal won't be a monarchy so... why should he fight for something impossible?...
It's wrong to think he doesn't claim the title because he doesnt know he has rights to it or because he recognizes Duarte as the Head of the House of Braganza. Francisco is not an ignorant! IMO, if he doesn't claim the title is only because he doesnt want to. On this interview, he said he was ready to take the role if D. Duarte havent get married. Well, Duarte has 2 brothers, if Duarte died without children, the next Duke of Braganza would be Henrique (Duarte's brother), and not him, D. Francisco (Duarte's cousin). So if D. Duarte was out of the scene, Francisco wouldnt have problems to confront Duarte's brothers...

To be honest with you, Keith, it's sad that D. Francisco doesnt fight for his rights because he is a great man, a VERY smart and very cultured person. Trust me, I know what I am talking about. Francisco could bring a lot of prestige to Portugal, but sadly he doesnt seem very interested on it. I would be Happy if Poidimani could give to Francisco a bit of his determination

Maybe some day his son shows a more resolute interest for the Title. If he doesn't, D. Afonso (Duarte's son) will be known as the future Duke of Braganza., Poidimani's son will continue his father's mission and maybe the Duke of Loule' son will find a fado singer who will write the "Usurpador II" (book) I am kidding, basically, everything will remain the same as it is now.

[Menarue]

Originally Posted by Regina

Regina.
Maybe some day his son shows a more resolute interest for the Title. If he doesn't, D. Afonso (Duarte's son) will be known as the future Duke of Braganza., Poidimani's son will continue his father's mission and maybe the Duke of Loule' son will find a fado singer who will write the "Usurpador II" (book) I am kidding, basically, everything will remain the same as it is now.

Many a truth is said in jest (or words to that effect). Ha ha Regina.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Regina

It's wrong to think he doesn't claim the title because he doesnt know he has rights to it or because he recognizes Duarte as the Head of the House of Braganza. Francisco is not an ignorant!

Thank you for replying to my question. I'm sorry, I did not mean to imply that Franciso doesn't know his rights. I realize he is an intelligent and cultured man. Sometimes when I am trying to understand issues, I think out loud and ask questions which may come across as a little blunt.

Originally Posted by Regina

Maybe some day his son shows a more resolute interest for the Title. If he doesn't, D. Afonso (Duarte's son) will be known as the future Duke of Braganza., Poidimani's son will continue his father's mission and maybe the Duke of Loule' son will find a fado singer who will write the "Usurpador II" (book) I am kidding, basically, everything will remain the same as it is now.

I know this is off topic, but I just thought I would share a little here. I have always been interested in the history of Spain and Portugal (and mostly Spain until recently), and have an interest in what constitutional monarchies have to offer since they seem to have advantages that a democratic republic could use. But these interests did not converge until I happened to hear the music of Ana Moura, Mafalda Arnauth and other fado singers. I was captivated by the music and now I seem to more captivated by Portugal's history and culture. So, that brings me to another question: Could you tell me what the background is to your jest?

[Elsa M.]

Originally Posted by Keith

But these interests did not converge until I happened to hear the music of Ana Moura, Mafalda Arnauth and other fado singers. I was captivated by the music and now I seem to more captivated by Portugal's history and culture. So, that brings me to another question: Could you tell me what the background is to your jest?

No worries, Keith!

There's a fado singer called Nuno da Câmara Pereira, who happens to be the head of the Monarchic Party and he just published a book addressing D. Duarte as "O usurpador"... you can read more about it here:

The Royal Forums - View Single Post - The Duke and Duchess of Bragança and family, News and Pictures: February 2008-

[Marengo]

Well, considering Mr. da Camara Pereira's ultra-ultra-conservative views it isn't a big loss for D. Duarte IMHO.

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Keith

Thank you for replying to my question. I'm sorry, I did not mean to imply that Franciso doesn't know his rights. I realize he is an intelligent and cultured man. Sometimes when I am trying to understand issues, I think out loud and ask questions which may come across as a little blunt.

Keith, I was not refering to you on that part of my post don't worry. I just wrote what I did to explain my views a bit batter. (Even if you were implying that Francisco doesn't know his rights, you didn't have to ask sorry Your questions and your interest are most welcome to me!)

But these interests did not converge until I happened to hear the music of Ana Moura, Mafalda Arnauth and other fado singers.

Nice choices! When you can, try to hear (if you havent already done it) Cristina Branco. I am sure you'll love her voice!

In his book, Câmara Pereira, defends Duke of Loulé as the Head of the House of Portugal. I don't understand how he support him when he knows he is a descendent of Infanta Ana de Jesus, Miguel and Pedro's sister. Her marriage was never authorized by King John VI. After his death the authorization for the Infanta to marry should have been granted by the Parliament, and was not granted. Therefore the Infanta and her descendents lost all her rights to the thone.

[Menarue]

Keith my favourite fado singer in the younger generation is Maria Ana Bobone.
If you can listen to her. Beautiful girl with a beautiful voice.

[JSP]

Originally Posted by Menarue

Some years back D.Maria Pia visited Portugal and appeared in public giving what was more of a harangue than a speech claiming that she was the real head of the house of Bragança. If she was really the illigitimate daughter of Rei Dom Carlos she still wouldn´t be the head of the house of Bragança by reason of being a bastard. How on earth could that lady say that a friend of the family, good business man or not could be the King of Portugal.
Portugal is a Republic and there is no King of Portugal and there isn´t likely to be in any near or distant future. There is a pretender to the throne, D.Duarte Nuno and thank goodness he will remain pretender until D.Afonso follows him. Squabbling over this becomes ridiculous. There are, it was said. some 300,000 descendants of royalty in Portugal today and I believe that the majority accept D. Duarte Nuno as the head of the House of Braganza.
I know that my family does.

Hilda Toledano aka Maria Pia de Bragança was a sort of our Anastasia.
A mentally disturbed woman who lived in a fantasyland.
But she was smart enough to crookery.
When she visited Portugal she booked a suite in Lisbon Sheraton Hotel under the name of Duchess of Bragança.
She stayed a couple of days and when she was checking out she refused to pay telling the manager to send the bill to Fundação da Casa de Bragança who possessed her wealth .
The bill was never paid

[JSP]

Originally Posted by Regina

In his book, Câmara Pereira, defends Duke of Loulé as the Head of the House of Portugal. I don't understand how he support him when he knows he is a descendent of Infanta Ana de Jesus, Miguel and Pedro's sister. Her marriage was never authorized by King John VI. After his death the authorization for the Infanta to marry should have been granted by the Parliament, and was not granted. Therefore the Infanta and her descendents lost all her rights to the thone.

Nuno himself aspired to the crown.
Ridiculous considering he is a descendant via illegitimate line.
His support to Loulé comes from 2 things:
1. They are cousins both descending from D.Ana de Jesus Maria.
2. They have a common "enemy", D.Duarte.
It is sad that for a shallow and petty reason NCPereira and his brothers cut relations with the RF.
They were involved in some musical events at D.Duarte's wedding.
Their loss, certainly not D.Duarte's whose dignity remains untouched.

As to Loulé, D.Duarte cut sharp his ambitions by saying that his father, the late Duke of Loulé had asked D.Duarte permision to use the title, recognizing him as the Head of the Royal Family.
(The Loulés were also present in force at D.Duarte's wedding.)

[JSP]

=Regina;776299]D. Duarte is a Portuguese now, but he was not born as a Portuguese. How can he claim that if his parents were not Portuguese (her mother was a Brazilian and his father an Austrian)? When he was born his family was not authorized to live in Portugal (or Portuguese soil)! /quote]

D.Duarte Nuno was never austrian.
How could he, being the son of a Portuguese Father and a German Mother.
He was definitely Portuguese.

[quoteBesides all that, I've never heard about any Embassy or Consulate with labours room...[/quote]

Embassies may not have a labour room, but neither private houses do.
And before there were hospitals and maternities people were born at home, at their parent's room in their parents own beds.
What's the fuss about it ?

Maybe it is a legend, but I always heard that Portuguese Infantes born in exile, were born on/over portuguese soil.
Portuguese earth was brought and put under the bed so that they could be born on portuguese land.
And it is a wellknown fact that Emperor Franz HJosef granted extyra-territoriality statute to D.Miguel II's home in Austria, so, technically, he was not born in Austria

[Regina]

Originally Posted by JSP

When she visited Portugal she booked a suite in Lisbon Sheraton Hotel under the name of Duchess of Bragança.
She stayed a couple of days and when she was checking out she refused to pay telling the manager to send the bill to Fundação da Casa de Bragança who possessed her wealth .
The bill was never paid

The fact that the lady gave up of her "rights" on a stranger than on her own children already tells much about her.
I think Hotel Sheraton has to be careful next time someone book a room in the name of Duchess (or Duke) of Braganza.

Originally Posted by JSP

Nuno himself aspired to the crown.
Ridiculous considering he is a descendant via illegitimate line.
His support to Loulé comes from 2 things:
1. They are cousins both descending from D.Ana de Jesus Maria.
2. They have a common "enemy", D.Duarte.
It is sad that for a shallow and petty reason NCPereira and his brothers cut relations with the RF.
They were involved in some musical events at D.Duarte's wedding.

Yes, I recall when Nuno said he was the legitimate Heir. I was very surprised with what I was reading because I knew that Duarte and Nuno were both great friends. It's very sad he didn't write his book before the incident with the Nobility Council.
Do you know, JSP, if Gonçalo CM cut relations with D. Duarte?

As to Loulé, D.Duarte cut sharp his ambitions by saying that his father, the late Duke of Loulé had asked D.Duarte permision to use the title, recognizing him as the Head of the Royal Family.
(The Loulés were also present in force at D.Duarte's wedding.)

Exactly. Duke of Loulé is out of the "race". And Nuno too, because he is a descendent of Infanta Ana de Jesus who lost her rights when she married.

D.Duarte Nuno was never austrian.
How could he, being the son of a Portuguese Father and a German Mother.
He was definitely Portuguese.

A Portuguese father? Well that's new for me. D. Miguel and his descendency lost the Portuguese nationality... If you still want to see them as Portuguese, that's up to you, but according to the Law they were not Portuguese.

Embassies may not have a labour room, but neither private houses do.
And before there were hospitals and maternities people were born at home, at their parent's room in their parents own beds.
What's the fuss about it ?

But why would he be born at the Portuguese Embassy? Then it was an illegal act!

Maybe it is a legend, but I always heard that Portuguese Infantes born in exile, were born on/over portuguese soil.
Portuguese earth was brought and put under the bed so that they could be born on portuguese land.

That's a probably a legend. Even if that story was true, the law at the time didn't recognize nationality to those who were born in exile with Portuguese earth under their beds.

And it is a wellknown fact that Emperor Franz HJosef granted extyra-territoriality statute to D.Miguel II's home in Austria, so, technically, he was not born in Austria

So where is his birth place? In Portugal it was not.