Claims to the Portuguese Throne


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Some years back D.Maria Pia visited Portugal and appeared in public giving what was more of a harangue than a speech claiming that she was the real head of the house of Bragança. If she was really the illigitimate daughter of Rei Dom Carlos she still wouldn´t be the head of the house of Bragança by reason of being a bastard. How on earth could that lady say that a friend of the family, good business man or not could be the King of Portugal.
Portugal is a Republic and there is no King of Portugal and there isn´t likely to be in any near or distant future. There is a pretender to the throne, D.Duarte Nuno and thank goodness he will remain pretender until D.Afonso follows him. Squabbling over this becomes ridiculous. There are, it was said. some 300,000 descendants of royalty in Portugal today and I believe that the majority accept D. Duarte Nuno as the head of the House of Braganza.
I know that my family does.
 
There are, it was said. some 300,000 descendants of royalty in Portugal today and I believe that the majority accept D. Duarte Nuno as the head of the House of Braganza.
I know that my family does.

Well, no one accepts D. Duarte Nuno as the Head of the House because Duarte Nuno is dead. You must be refering to his son, D. Duarte Pio. :)

But why do they accept D. Duarte? Because traditionally he is accepted as the head of the House?
I support D. Francisco van Uden only because he fulfills all the requisites, I don't have any particular interest for not supporting D. Duarte. I admit I am not a great fan of most of his ideas but my personal opinions don't matter. What matter is to know if he really is the right person to be called Duke of Braganza or not. I just don't understand how can a person be accepted as the Head of the House of Braganza if his parents were not even Portuguese!
 
D. Duarte yes is not in compliance of the prerequisites to be a king of Portugal...lol this is true, in his family line there lies some things that would have kept him from becoming king during the monarcy. I am a stronge supporter of D. Duarte as you must already know Regina....hehehe but I am also the first to admit that there is a few flaus. But out of all these "pretenders" to the throne D. Duarte is the most qualified and also the most accepted not only to the portuguese but also within the other royal houses of europe. I must admit he doesnt sounds like a very smart man, but he has some very good ideas, ideas I think the government should sometimes listen to.
 
I'm new here but I thought I'd weigh in with my opinion.

Portugal had 3 constitutions as a monarchy:

1. The one in 1822 it was in effect until 1826.

2. The charter drafted by Pedro IV in 1826 was in effect from 1826-1828, 1834-1838 & 1842-1910. This is the principal constitution of the monarchy.

3. The constitution of 1838 which lasted until 1842.

From what I've gathered the three state that a king must be Portuguese, must be acclaimed by parliament and must be of legitimate birth and descent. The constitution of 1838 bans Miguel I and his descendants, but it was only in effect for four years.

Being that Portugal is not a monarchy it is difficult to say which one has the most weight, but I tend to go with the Charter of 1826. There was a law that banned Miguel and his descendants from Portugal in 1834, but it was not enshrined in the charter it is revocable. In my opinion that automatically gives Dom Duarte more points than some random Italian man.

Assuming that Portugal were to ever restore a monarchy I would assume that the current Republican parliament would name the new king and a new constitution would be drafted. As all three constitutions do state the legitimate government lies in the hands of the people and their representatives. So if a new constitution were drafted, all previous constitutions would be null and void.

Finally, one thing I've never understood are their any Portuguese legitimists claiming that Pedro IV's abdication was illegitimate and that the throne really belongs to Pedro Carlos of Orleans-Braganca? After all he is the senior male descendant of Pedro IV.
 
Well, no one accepts D. Duarte Nuno as the Head of the House because Duarte Nuno is dead. You must be refering to his son, D. Duarte Pio. :)

But why do they accept D. Duarte? Because traditionally he is accepted as the head of the House?
I support D. Francisco van Uden only because he fulfills all the requisites, I don't have any particular interest for not supporting D. Duarte. I admit I am not a great fan of most of his ideas but my personal opinions don't matter. What matter is to know if he really is the right person to be called Duke of Braganza or not. I just don't understand how can a person be accepted as the Head of the House of Braganza if his parents were not even Portuguese!

Mea culpa, slip of the keyboard.:flowers: About not being Portuguese, I still have problems with William of Orange when there was a Stuart alive.....
 
I suppose my husband´s family are a bit biased. Perhaps the main reason is that they supported D.Miguel way back then.
In fact his great (4 times) grandfather died here for supporting him.
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(Both sides at different times had family who died here but my husband´s family took it a bit personally).
 
But out of all these "pretenders" to the throne D. Duarte is the most qualified and also the most accepted not only to the portuguese but also within the other royal houses of europe.

Well, to be honest with you Danny, I don't think other royal houses of Europe spend much of their time thinking about if D. Duarte is or not the right head of the House of Braganza. D. Duarte says he has a good relationship with other royal houses. I dont have reasons to doubt it, but I dont believe he has a CLOSE relationship with any royal house at the moment. Neither he or his wife were invited to be godparents at any recent Christening.


I must admit he doesnt sounds like a very smart man, but he has some very good ideas, ideas I think the government should sometimes listen to.

I agree he has good ideas sometimes. I like to hear him when he talks about Europe identity and environment. I think he cares a lot about these 2 topics and he always says intereting thing about them (IMO).

In my opinion that automatically gives Dom Duarte more points than some random Italian man.

Poidimani would never be accepted. He would always be known as the adopted son of the murdered King D. Carlos' illegitimate daughter... :ermm:


Paul, I didn't understand what you said here:

The constitution of 1838 bans Miguel I and his descendants, but it was only in effect for four years.

What was only in effect for four years? The Law of Banishement (Lei do Banimento) happened in 1834, and this law was only revoked in 1950 (after D. Duarte's birth).


I suppose my husband´s family are a bit biased. Perhaps the main reason is that they supported D.Miguel way back then.
In fact his great (4 times) grandfather died here for supporting him.

I know that with the defeat of the Miguelistas, the families that supported D. Miguel got impriosioned and some of them lost their fortunes. It's understandable that some portuguese families still feel this part of the History as a something painful, but do not forget that D. Duarte, on his mother's side, is also a descendent of D. Pedro :) while D. Francisco van Uden is a descendent of D. Miguel only.
 
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I hadn´t realised that Regina, I will have to study some family trees a bit more.
I doubt very much if any one of the pretenders will ever be more than that but that doesn´t stop us from speculating. As long as Poidimani keeps away from Portugal and any royal residence, I am fine.
 
I agree with you Menarue for Poidimani.

Regina, Heads of European Royal Families ask not the question "who is the Head of the Royal House of Portugal" because it is understood that the answer is: Dom Duarte Pio...
For other Royal Families there is a doubt, ie Two Sicilies, at the moment we have Don Carlos (living in Madrid) and Carlo (living in Rome), here all books of nobility say that there are two people claiming the title of Head of the House...
Royals and nobles are divided into supporters of Carlos and supporters of Carlo, it depends from their personal contacts and relations with them.
 
Exactly Count, I usually wonder why it is so important that he is born abroad to some. In the Germanic culture somebody can live abroad for many generations and still be considered German for example. That is how all the Germans from that settled in Eastern Europe over the centuries could return to Germany after WII (untill Chansellor Schreuder changed the law a few years ago). Likewise in my own country the 3rd or 4th generation immigrants are usually still called 'Turkish', ' Maroccan' etc. by many. Not that is a good thing of course, but it happens.

Likewise the way of reasoning that somebody has to be born in a country will make sure that many royal families will have no claimants at all, considering many were exiled.
 
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Exactly Count, I usually wonder why it is so important that he is born abroad to some. In the Germanic culture somebody can live abroad for many generations and still be considered German for example. That is how all the Germans from that settled in Eastern Europe over the centuries could return to Germany after WII (untill Chansellor Schreuder changed the law a few years ago). Likewise in my own country the 3rd or 4th generation immigrants are usually still called 'Turkish', ' Maroccan' etc. by many. Not that is a good thing of course, but it happens.

Likewise the way of reasoning that somebody has to be born in a country will make sure that many royal families will have no claimants at all, considering many were exiled.

Exactly, I heard for example that Hebrews can ask for the citizenship of Israel even if they are born in the USA, Gemany, Italy etc...
 
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Exactly, I heard for example that Hebrews can ask for the citizenship of Israel even if they are born in the USA, Gemany, Italy etc...

I don't know what the actual reasoning was for the requirement on monarchs to be born on Portuguese soil, but could the following argument be used? By requiring a monarch to be born in the "home" country, this would provide a better chance of that person, who would be the future ruler, of growing up in the culture and being seen as sharing the same culture and history with the people (It would allow a better chance for the future ruler to identify with the people). Also, by being born and raised in another country, the future ruler's loyalties may be divided between the two countries, and the requirement would be an attempt to avoid divided loyalties. I'm probably off base on this, but I was just trying to understand what the logic might be.

What was the original reasoning?
 
As long as Poidimani keeps away from Portugal and any royal residence, I am fine.

Yes, indeed. Poidimani wouldn't be accepted, anyway.

For other Royal Families there is a doubt, ie Two Sicilies, at the moment we have Don Carlos (living in Madrid) and Carlo (living in Rome), here all books of nobility say that there are two people claiming the title of Head of the House...
Royals and nobles are divided into supporters of Carlos and supporters of Carlo, it depends from their personal contacts and relations with them.

Ok Count, there are also two men who claim the title of Duke d'Anjou. ;) But the House of Braganza has not the same weight as other Houses have. Other Royal Houses simply don't care who is the Head of the House of Braganza, they accept D. Duarte because his father claimed the Title, and none confronted him at the time. Everyone (except Queen Amelia and few others) accepted him as the Head of the House. But thank God, in our days people don't accept everything just like that anymore and some monarchists here and then have the courage to write books or blogs in the internet calling our attention to what they think is wrong on D. Duarte life story. I don't support Poidimani or Duke of Loule, but at least they made many think about this Claims to the portuguese throne topic. And they have all the right to protest against D. Duarte's claims, IMO.

Exactly Count, I usually wonder why it is so important that he is born abroad to some. In the Germanic culture somebody can live abroad for many generations and still be considered German for example. That is how all the Germans from that settled in Eastern Europe over the centuries could return to Germany after WII (untill Chansellor Schreuder changed the law a few years ago). Likewise in my own country the 3rd or 4th generation immigrants are usually still called 'Turkish', ' Maroccan' etc. by many. Not that is a good thing of course, but it happens.

Yes, it happens, but we are not talking about common people, but about the Head of a Royal House.

Likewise the way of reasoning that somebody has to be born in a country will make sure that many royal families will have no claimants at all, considering many were exiled.

This is not only about his birth place. D. Duarte Nuno was undoubtedly the legal heir of his grandfather (Miguel I), but the doubt is if he was the legal heir of the last reigning King of Portugal, Manuel II.

The Constitution of 1826 (articles 87 and 88) stated that the throne should pass first to the descendants of Queen Maria II (from whom Duarte Nuno was not descended) and only when they were extinct to collateral heirs.

Queen Maria II had living descendants, but none of these had Portuguese nationality! Duarte Nuno and these descendents were in the same position (they didn't have the Portuguese nationality), since the article 89 of the Constitution of 1826 stated that "no foreigner can succeed to the crown of the kingdom of Portugal". When D. Duarte Pio was born he was a foreigner. So how can he be accepted as the Head of the Royal House? If someone can answer me to that, I'll change my mind :D

When a (very) small minority of monarchists looked for another candidate than D. Duarte Nuno, they found that D. Manuel's heir was Crown Prince George of Saxony, a great-grandson ofMaria II, but he was not Portuguese (as was required by Portuguese law for the succession!) AND he was also a Catholic priest.

The closest heir who is undoubtedly Portuguese is Francisco van Uden, who should be more resolute about his rights. Some people say he knows Portugal wont be a monarchy again so he doesn't want problems with his cousin. But IMO he should claim the Title of Duke of Braganza for himself. First, because the title belongs to him (according to the Constitutions) and Second, because if you read their interviews (or if you ever have talked with them) you'll notice that Francisco is much smarter and wise (IMO).


Also, by being born and raised in another country, the future ruler's loyalties may be divided between the two countries, and the requirement would be an attempt to avoid divided loyalties. I'm probably off base on this, but I was just trying to understand what the logic might be.

What was the original reasoning?

Keith, I can only tell you my personal opinion about this, since I don't know for sure what was the original reasoning. But see the story of D. Miguel II:
D. Miguel II (D. Duarte's grandfather), was born in Germany. During WWI he held a rank in the Austrian army. He resigned in 1917 when Portugal entered the conflict on the opposite side. The question is which side was he really on? :rolleyes:

So, I believe the original reasoning was to avoid divided loyalties, as you wrote.
 
The closest heir who is undoubtedly Portuguese is Francisco van Uden, who should be more resolute about his rights. Some people say he knows Portugal wont be a monarchy again so he doesn't want problems with his cousin. But IMO he should claim the Title of Duke of Braganza for himself. First, because the title belongs to him (according to the Constitutions) and Second, because if you read their interviews (or if you ever have talked with them) you'll notice that Francisco is much smarter and wise (IMO).

But if the issue of legal heir is not resolved now, will this not cause greater difficulties if in future generations the claim is challenged? It would seem that if Francisco van Uden will not confront the issue and have it resolved one way or another, then complications in the future could result if descendents of van Uden challenge the descendents of D. Duarte Pio. Of course, if he does not challenge, then is he tacitly recognizing D. Duarte's claim, and thereby resolving the issue?
 
But if the issue of legal heir is not resolved now, will this not cause greater difficulties if in future generations the claim is challenged? It would seem that if Francisco van Uden will not confront the issue and have it resolved one way or another, then complications in the future could result if descendents of van Uden challenge the descendents of D. Duarte Pio. Of course, if he does not challenge, then is he tacitly recognizing D. Duarte's claim, and thereby resolving the issue?

Keith, IMO, there are several reasons for Francisco's silence.
Let's not forget he is a successful manager, and if he decided to left his businesses because of an hypothetic title, he would probably lost many financial benefits. With his full time job he couldn't accept to be present on many social and cultural events all over the country. I don't know if this is a real reason for him, it's just my personal opinion.

The second reason is probably because he doesn't want to loose his friendship with his cousin. Francisco knows Portugal won't be a monarchy so... why should he fight for something impossible?...
It's wrong to think he doesn't claim the title because he doesnt know he has rights to it or because he recognizes Duarte as the Head of the House of Braganza. Francisco is not an ignorant! IMO, if he doesn't claim the title is only because he doesnt want to. On this interview, he said he was ready to take the role if D. Duarte havent get married. Well, Duarte has 2 brothers, if Duarte died without children, the next Duke of Braganza would be Henrique (Duarte's brother), and not him, D. Francisco (Duarte's cousin). So if D. Duarte was out of the scene, Francisco wouldnt have problems to confront Duarte's brothers...:rolleyes:

To be honest with you, Keith, it's sad that D. Francisco doesnt fight for his rights because he is a great man, a VERY smart and very cultured person. Trust me, I know what I am talking about. Francisco could bring a lot of prestige to Portugal, but sadly he doesnt seem very interested on it. I would be Happy if Poidimani could give to Francisco a bit of his determination :D

Maybe some day his son shows a more resolute interest for the Title. If he doesn't, D. Afonso (Duarte's son) will be known as the future Duke of Braganza., Poidimani's son will continue his father's mission :D and maybe the Duke of Loule' son will find a fado singer who will write the "Usurpador II" (book) :lol: I am kidding, basically, everything will remain the same as it is now. :)
 
Regina said:
Regina.
Maybe some day his son shows a more resolute interest for the Title. If he doesn't, D. Afonso (Duarte's son) will be known as the future Duke of Braganza., Poidimani's son will continue his father's mission :D and maybe the Duke of Loule' son will find a fado singer who will write the "Usurpador II" (book) :lol: I am kidding, basically, everything will remain the same as it is now. :)

Many a truth is said in jest (or words to that effect). Ha ha Regina.
 
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It's wrong to think he doesn't claim the title because he doesnt know he has rights to it or because he recognizes Duarte as the Head of the House of Braganza. Francisco is not an ignorant!

Thank you for replying to my question. I'm sorry, I did not mean to imply that Franciso doesn't know his rights. I realize he is an intelligent and cultured man. Sometimes when I am trying to understand issues, I think out loud and ask questions which may come across as a little blunt.

Maybe some day his son shows a more resolute interest for the Title. If he doesn't, D. Afonso (Duarte's son) will be known as the future Duke of Braganza., Poidimani's son will continue his father's mission :D and maybe the Duke of Loule' son will find a fado singer who will write the "Usurpador II" (book) :lol: I am kidding, basically, everything will remain the same as it is now. :)

I know this is off topic, but I just thought I would share a little here. I have always been interested in the history of Spain and Portugal (and mostly Spain until recently), and have an interest in what constitutional monarchies have to offer since they seem to have advantages that a democratic republic could use. But these interests did not converge until I happened to hear the music of Ana Moura, Mafalda Arnauth and other fado singers. I was captivated by the music and now I seem to more captivated by Portugal's history and culture. So, that brings me to another question: Could you tell me what the background is to your jest?:huh:
 
But these interests did not converge until I happened to hear the music of Ana Moura, Mafalda Arnauth and other fado singers. I was captivated by the music and now I seem to more captivated by Portugal's history and culture. So, that brings me to another question: Could you tell me what the background is to your jest?:huh:
No worries, Keith! ;)

There's a fado singer called Nuno da Câmara Pereira, who happens to be the head of the Monarchic Party and he just published a book addressing D. Duarte as "O usurpador"... you can read more about it here:

The Royal Forums - View Single Post - The Duke and Duchess of Bragança and family, News and Pictures: February 2008-
 
Well, considering Mr. da Camara Pereira's ultra-ultra-conservative views it isn't a big loss for D. Duarte IMHO.
 
Thank you for replying to my question. I'm sorry, I did not mean to imply that Franciso doesn't know his rights. I realize he is an intelligent and cultured man. Sometimes when I am trying to understand issues, I think out loud and ask questions which may come across as a little blunt.

Keith, I was not refering to you on that part of my post :) don't worry. I just wrote what I did to explain my views a bit batter. (Even if you were implying that Francisco doesn't know his rights, you didn't have to ask sorry :flowers: Your questions and your interest are most welcome to me!)

But these interests did not converge until I happened to hear the music of Ana Moura, Mafalda Arnauth and other fado singers.

Nice choices! ;) When you can, try to hear (if you havent already done it) Cristina Branco. I am sure you'll love her voice!

In his book, Câmara Pereira, defends Duke of Loulé as the Head of the House of Portugal. I don't understand how he support him when he knows he is a descendent of Infanta Ana de Jesus, Miguel and Pedro's sister. Her marriage was never authorized by King John VI. After his death the authorization for the Infanta to marry should have been granted by the Parliament, and was not granted. Therefore the Infanta and her descendents lost all her rights to the thone.
 
Keith my favourite fado singer in the younger generation is Maria Ana Bobone.
If you can listen to her. Beautiful girl with a beautiful voice.
 
Hilda Toledano

Some years back D.Maria Pia visited Portugal and appeared in public giving what was more of a harangue than a speech claiming that she was the real head of the house of Bragança. If she was really the illigitimate daughter of Rei Dom Carlos she still wouldn´t be the head of the house of Bragança by reason of being a bastard. How on earth could that lady say that a friend of the family, good business man or not could be the King of Portugal.
Portugal is a Republic and there is no King of Portugal and there isn´t likely to be in any near or distant future. There is a pretender to the throne, D.Duarte Nuno and thank goodness he will remain pretender until D.Afonso follows him. Squabbling over this becomes ridiculous. There are, it was said. some 300,000 descendants of royalty in Portugal today and I believe that the majority accept D. Duarte Nuno as the head of the House of Braganza.
I know that my family does.

Hilda Toledano aka Maria Pia de Bragança was a sort of our Anastasia.
A mentally disturbed woman who lived in a fantasyland.
But she was smart enough to crookery.
When she visited Portugal she booked a suite in Lisbon Sheraton Hotel under the name of Duchess of Bragança.
She stayed a couple of days and when she was checking out she refused to pay telling the manager to send the bill to Fundação da Casa de Bragança who possessed her wealth :eek:.
The bill was never paid
 
NCPereira and the Loulés

In his book, Câmara Pereira, defends Duke of Loulé as the Head of the House of Portugal. I don't understand how he support him when he knows he is a descendent of Infanta Ana de Jesus, Miguel and Pedro's sister. Her marriage was never authorized by King John VI. After his death the authorization for the Infanta to marry should have been granted by the Parliament, and was not granted. Therefore the Infanta and her descendents lost all her rights to the thone.

Nuno himself aspired to the crown.
Ridiculous considering he is a descendant via illegitimate line.
His support to Loulé comes from 2 things:
1. They are cousins both descending from D.Ana de Jesus Maria.
2. They have a common "enemy", D.Duarte.
It is sad that for a shallow and petty reason NCPereira and his brothers cut relations with the RF.
They were involved in some musical events at D.Duarte's wedding.
Their loss, certainly not D.Duarte's whose dignity remains untouched.

As to Loulé, D.Duarte cut sharp his ambitions by saying that his father, the late Duke of Loulé had asked D.Duarte permision to use the title, recognizing him as the Head of the Royal Family.
(The Loulés were also present in force at D.Duarte's wedding.)
 
=Regina;776299]D. Duarte is a Portuguese now, but he was not born as a Portuguese. How can he claim that if his parents were not Portuguese (her mother was a Brazilian and his father an Austrian)? When he was born his family was not authorized to live in Portugal (or Portuguese soil)! /quote]

D.Duarte Nuno was never austrian.
How could he, being the son of a Portuguese Father and a German Mother.
He was definitely Portuguese.

[quoteBesides all that, I've never heard about any Embassy or Consulate with labours room...[/quote]

Embassies may not have a labour room, but neither private houses do.
And before there were hospitals and maternities people were born at home, at their parent's room in their parents own beds.
What's the fuss about it ?

Maybe it is a legend, but I always heard that Portuguese Infantes born in exile, were born on/over portuguese soil.
Portuguese earth was brought and put under the bed so that they could be born on portuguese land.
And it is a wellknown fact that Emperor Franz HJosef granted extyra-territoriality statute to D.Miguel II's home in Austria, so, technically, he was not born in Austria
 
When she visited Portugal she booked a suite in Lisbon Sheraton Hotel under the name of Duchess of Bragança.
She stayed a couple of days and when she was checking out she refused to pay telling the manager to send the bill to Fundação da Casa de Bragança who possessed her wealth :eek:.
The bill was never paid

The fact that the lady gave up of her "rights" on a stranger than on her own children already tells much about her.
I think Hotel Sheraton has to be careful next time someone book a room in the name of Duchess (or Duke) of Braganza. ;)


Nuno himself aspired to the crown.
Ridiculous considering he is a descendant via illegitimate line.
His support to Loulé comes from 2 things:
1. They are cousins both descending from D.Ana de Jesus Maria.
2. They have a common "enemy", D.Duarte.
It is sad that for a shallow and petty reason NCPereira and his brothers cut relations with the RF.
They were involved in some musical events at D.Duarte's wedding.

Yes, I recall when Nuno said he was the legitimate Heir. I was very surprised with what I was reading because I knew that Duarte and Nuno were both great friends. It's very sad he didn't write his book before the incident with the Nobility Council.
Do you know, JSP, if Gonçalo CM cut relations with D. Duarte?


As to Loulé, D.Duarte cut sharp his ambitions by saying that his father, the late Duke of Loulé had asked D.Duarte permision to use the title, recognizing him as the Head of the Royal Family.
(The Loulés were also present in force at D.Duarte's wedding.)

Exactly. Duke of Loulé is out of the "race". And Nuno too, because he is a descendent of Infanta Ana de Jesus who lost her rights when she married.


D.Duarte Nuno was never austrian.
How could he, being the son of a Portuguese Father and a German Mother.
He was definitely Portuguese.

A Portuguese father? Well that's new for me. D. Miguel and his descendency lost the Portuguese nationality... If you still want to see them as Portuguese, that's up to you, but according to the Law they were not Portuguese.

Embassies may not have a labour room, but neither private houses do.
And before there were hospitals and maternities people were born at home, at their parent's room in their parents own beds.
What's the fuss about it ?

But why would he be born at the Portuguese Embassy? Then it was an illegal act!

Maybe it is a legend, but I always heard that Portuguese Infantes born in exile, were born on/over portuguese soil.
Portuguese earth was brought and put under the bed so that they could be born on portuguese land.

That's a probably a legend. :) Even if that story was true, the law at the time didn't recognize nationality to those who were born in exile with Portuguese earth under their beds. :rolleyes:

And it is a wellknown fact that Emperor Franz HJosef granted extyra-territoriality statute to D.Miguel II's home in Austria, so, technically, he was not born in Austria

So where is his birth place? In Portugal it was not.
 
But why would he be born at the Portuguese Embassy? Then it was an illegal act!.

Illegal :eek: ???
Do you think that D.Duarte Nuno smuggled D.Maria Francisca in the Embassy through the back door ?
Of course it was not illegal, since Salazar approved the plan.
And these days, Salazar was the law :whistling:
As you must know, Embassies are a state national territory.
D.Duarte Pio was born in Berne in Portuguese territory :D
 
Regina it was an illegal act under the monarchy, in my thinking, and might or may not be right, since the republic had thrown out the constitutional letter of 1826 and replaced it with a republican one, then D. Duarte's family wasnt the only ones not allowed but the whole royal family. Since technically that branch of the family had no royal rights then wouldnt they had be able to step foot on portuguese soil? I think if this had been taken to court before salazar's actions and used that defence I belive they wouldnt have won, so really D. Duarte Nuno and his family would have been able to legaly step foot on portuguese soil, just as Maria Pia when she declared she was Duchesse of Braganca.
 
Do you know, JSP, if Gonçalo CM cut relations with D. Duarte?
I suppose so.
He was supporting Nuno at the launch of "O Usurpador"
Exactly. Duke of Loulé is out of the "race". And Nuno too, because he is a descendent of Infanta Ana de Jesus who lost her rights when she married.
The Loulés naturally claim that D.Carlota Joaquina gave her approval to the wedding and forced Infanta D.Isabel Maria, who was acting as a Regent before the arrival of D.Miguel, to approve the wedding too.
I wonder if there is any written document.

As to Nuno, he descends via an illegitimate branch and is completely out of the race (for those who consider there is one :lol:.
Your support to Francisco van Uden is new to me.
I had never realised he was on the race too.
Apart from the episode before D.Duarte's wedding when he tried to force D.Duarte to appoint his son the legitimate heir in case the 3 brothers would not produce an heir.
Having said that, if he wanted D.Duarte to appoint his son (and not him) as the heir, that means he does not consider himself in the race I would say :whistling:

A Portuguese father? Well that's new for me. D. Miguel and his descendency lost the Portuguese nationality... If you still want to see them as Portuguese, that's up to you, but according to the Law they were not Portuguese.

D.Miguel and his family did not loose their nationality.
They were deprived from it by a terrorist act.
Depriving someone from its nationality is the most abject conduct a government can take over one of his citizens :angry:.
Having been cohersed to sign the Évora-Monte convention, it was not surprising that D.Miguel had retracted from the infamous treaty he was forced to sign.
He always considered himself Portuguese and was recognized as such internationally.

After his departure, the so humanists Liberals passed a Law authorizing anybody to shoot on the spot :ohmy: D.Miguel or his descendants should they ever enter in Portugal.

A law that was never respected neither by the reigning RF.
D.Miguel I is supposed to have entertained an interview with D.Pedro V at Mafra Palace, and D.Miguel II; Infanta D.Aldegundes and her husband visited Lisbon years later. They were recognized at a theater and for mere caution, they left the place .
 
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The Loulés naturally claim that D.Carlota Joaquina gave her approval to the wedding and forced Infanta D.Isabel Maria, who was acting as a Regent before the arrival of D.Miguel, to approve the wedding too.
I wonder if there is any written document.

I'll reply to the rest of the post tomorrow but I wanted to say that there is a written document of Carlota Joaquina's approval. I was searching and I found it on "Usurpador".

I am not 100% sure but I think that as Infanta married a non-royal man, she lost her rights to the Throne. Am I right?
 
Keith my favourite fado singer in the younger generation is Maria Ana Bobone.
If you can listen to her. Beautiful girl with a beautiful voice.

Menarue, I have listened to Maria Ana Bobone and yes, she has a beautiful voice. I have a DVD coming, "Fado Today", that has the performances of Maria Ana Bobone. Also, the next CD I intend to purchase is her "Senhora Da Lapa" (This seems to be the only one available in the US). :D

And Regina, I have also listened to Cristina Branco and I like her as well. Actually I had order two DVD's, "Fado Today", and the second one has her performances. :D

Fortunately, all the CD's I have purchased come with the lyrics in both English and Portuguese. But I have started to try (With the emphasis on "try") to teach myself a little Portuguese.

Anyway, I must apologize to everyone for this digression since I am off topic. But just thought I would respond to Menarue's and Regina's recommendations.
 
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