Claims to the Portuguese Throne

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Keith

Fortunately, all the CD's I have purchased come with the lyrics in both English and Portuguese. But I have started to try (With the emphasis on "try") to teach myself a little Portuguese.

If you need some help, PM me, I'll be glad to help.

[JSP]

Originally Posted by Regina

I'll reply to the rest of the post tomorrow but I wanted to say that there is a written document of Carlota Joaquina's approval. I was searching and I found it on "Usurpador".

I am not 100% sure but I think that as Infanta married a non-royal man, she lost her rights to the Throne. Am I right?

The problem is that it was not for Carlota Joaquina to approve.
She was the Dowager Queen, but Infanta D.Isabel Maria was the Regent.
Only her, or any of her brothers, whichever you think had the best rights, couls and should have approved.
Carlota Joaquina's signature on that document, even if it is a legal one - which considering the source, is doubtful imho - is absolutely irrelevant

[Regina]

Originally Posted by JSP

Illegal ???
Do you think that D.Duarte Nuno smuggled D.Maria Francisca in the Embassy through the back door ?
Of course it was not illegal, since Salazar approved the plan.
And these days, Salazar was the law
As you must know, Embassies are a state national territory.
D.Duarte Pio was born in Berne in Portuguese territory

JSP, I understand you admire D. Duarte and you accept him as your King, but you must see that there are no documents proving Duarte's birthplace. The only thing we have is Duarte Nuno's word, nothing else. How can you be so sure that his son was born at the Embassy? I know that Embassies are a state national territory but if you are banned from Portugal, your wife can't give birth to your children on Portuguese territory. You can't even enter on Portuguese territory.
And why would you use Portuguese earth under the bed if you're in Portuguese soil?

Salazar was the Law at the time. Ok, I agree. Then show me some document or speech of Salazar declaring "Duarte Pio was born in Portuguese territory". If Salazar wanted to make sure Duarte Nuno's child would be born in Portugal... he would allow them to come back and have the child here!

Originally Posted by Danny SR

Regina it was an illegal act under the monarchy, in my thinking, and might or may not be right, since the republic had thrown out the constitutional letter of 1826 and replaced it with a republican one, then D. Duarte's family wasnt the only ones not allowed but the whole royal family. Since technically that branch of the family had no royal rights then wouldnt they had be able to step foot on portuguese soil?

Maybe you're right, Danny. But the fact is that the Law of Banishment was only revogated in 1950.

Originally Posted by JSP

I suppose so.
He was supporting Nuno at the launch of "O Usurpador"

How surprising... or maybe not so surprising since the Câmara Pereira family members work as a clan...

Your support to Francisco van Uden is new to me.

If you read my posts you'll see I've always supported van Uden

When D. Duarte got married I thought Duarte was the real Head of the House because... well, everyone said so. But then a friend of mine (who would Love to live in a monarchy I must say...) told me that D. Duarte was Not the real Heir. I thought he was joking... I really didn't believe him. But then I started to study all this sucession story and the fact is that Duarte doesn't fulfil the requisits. I understand people like him (I have some members of my family who know D. Duarte personally and they all say he is a great person with sense of humor humor, generosity, and I don't doubt it) but IMO we must separate emotional attachment from the Law. I don't say all Duarte's supporters have an emotional attachment toward him but in Portugal sometimes it's difficult for people to seat, study and discover by themselves what the law (and only the law) says. We are an emotional people and IMO sometimes we loose with that.

We all know this is an inglorious discussion because Portugal won't have a Monarchy again, but it's always good to discuss who is our representant on international royal events, etc.

Having said that, if he wanted D.Duarte to appoint his son (and not him) as the heir, that means he does not consider himself in the race I would say

If he doesn't want his Title, then I hope his son will one day.

D.Miguel and his family did not loose their nationality.
They were deprived from it by a terrorist act.
Depriving someone from its nationality is the most abject conduct a government can take over one of his citizens .
Having been cohersed to sign the Évora-Monte convention, it was not surprising that D.Miguel had retracted from the infamous treaty he was forced to sign.
He always considered himself Portuguese and was recognized as such internationally.

It is an abject conduct but it happened. And at the time it was not considerated as an terrorist act as it would be now.
And yes JSP, D. Miguel and his family lost their portuguese nationality.

D. Duarte, Duke of Loulé, Francisco van Uden are all descendents of D. Miguel. The only one who has nothing to do with him is Poidimani

A law that was never respected neither by the reigning RF.
D.Miguel I is supposed to have entertained an interview with D.Pedro V at Mafra Palace, and D.Miguel II; Infanta D.Aldegundes and her husband visited Lisbon years later. They were recognized at a theater and for mere caution, they left the place.

Ok, but that doesn't change anything There are no D. Pedro's descendents to blame now So if it was a terrorist act or not doesn't matter much IMO because all these actual pretenders to the throne are D. Miguel's descendents.

[JSP]

Originally Posted by Regina

JSP, I understand you admire D. Duarte and you accept him as your King, but you must see that there are no documents proving Duarte's birthplace. The only thing we have is Duarte Nuno's word, nothing else. How can you be so sure that his son was born at the Embassy? .

GeneAll.net - D. Duarte Pio, duque de Bragança

I know that Embassies are a state national territory but if you are banned from Portugal, your wife can't give birth to your children on Portuguese territory. You can't even enter on Portuguese territory.
And why would you use Portuguese earth under the bed if you're in Portuguese soil?

Not D.Duarte Pio, who was born in the embassy but his ancestors and uncles/gr.uncles who were born in Germany/Austria.

Salazar was the Law at the time. Ok, I agree. Then show me some document or speech of Salazar declaring "Duarte Pio was born in Portuguese territory". If Salazar wanted to make sure Duarte Nuno's child would be born in Portugal... he would allow them to come back and have the child here!

Salazar was a true discipule of Macchiavel. He played several tables at the same time. He could not upset the republicans too much and neither he wanted to be estranged from the monarchics. So it was a clever way to satisfy everybody.

Maybe you're right, Danny. But the fact is that the Law of Banishment was only revogated in 1950.

How surprising... or maybe not so surprising since the Câmara Pereira family members work as a clan...

D. Duarte, Duke of Loulé, Francisco van Uden are all descendents of D. Miguel. The only one who has nothing to do with him is Poidimani

Ok, but that doesn't change anything There are no D. Pedro's descendents to blame now

So if it was a terrorist act or not doesn't matter much IMO because all these actual pretenders to the throne are D. Miguel's descendents.

Except the Loulé

[JSP]

Originally Posted by Regina

JSP, I understand you admire D. Duarte and you accept him as your King, but you must see that there are no documents proving Duarte's birthplace. The only thing we have is Duarte Nuno's word, nothing else.

How can you be so sure that his son was born at the Embassy? I know that Embassies are a state national territory but if you are banned from Portugal, your wife can't give birth to your children on Portuguese territory. You can't even enter on Portuguese territory.
And why would you use Portuguese earth under the bed if you're in Portuguese soil?

Every book I read stated that D.Duarte Pio was born at the Portuguese Embassy in Berne.
It is a common knowledge fact.
If it was the opposite, I am sure someone, even from the Foreign Office, would have step forward for ages.

and
Paginas Oficiais da Casa Real Portuguesa

[Regina]

Originally Posted by JSP

GeneAll.net - D. Duarte Pio, duque de Bragança

Not D.Duarte Pio, who was born in the embassy but his ancestors and uncles/gr.uncles who were born in Germany/Austria.

Salazar was a true discipule of Macchiavel. He played several tables at the same time. He could not upset the republicans too much and neither he wanted to be estranged from the monarchics. So it was a clever way to satisfy everybody.

IMO, the Republicans (leftists, communists) at the time were not concerned with D. Duarte. What they wanted at the time was to abolish the Regime. Salazar knew that the Republicans (Mario Soares, Cunhal, etc) would never be at his side, with or without Salazar.
Do not forget that Salazar was a monarchist since ever. And do not forget that Queen Amelia has no special feelings for Duarte Nuno's family. So, I dare to say that Salazar didn't like Duarte's family and he would had called them, as Franco did.

Except the Loulé

Yes, of course, my mistake. Duke of Loulé doesn't descend from D. Miguel but from Infanta Ana de Jesus. Infanta Ana, who was pregnant when she got married, lost her rights to the Throne, as I think most people agree.
Duke of Loulé is divorced from his wife. Can he still claim the Title? I don't think the Portuguese would support a divorced man for their king.

Originally Posted by JSP

Every book I read stated that D.Duarte Pio was born at the Portuguese Embassy in Berne.
It is a common knowledge fact.
If it was the opposite, I am sure someone, even from the Foreign Office, would have step forward for ages.

I wouldn't be so sure. Most Portuguese don't care for a Monarchy so this topic would never lead to many discussions. And I don't believe the Foreign Office ever cared about this topic. Nuno CP and Poidimani's friends did us the favour to contest the Duarte's birth story and now everything is being investigated.

[Menarue]

Originally Posted by Keith

Menarue, I have listened to Maria Ana Bobone and yes, she has a beautiful voice. I have a DVD coming, "Fado Today", that has the performances of Maria Ana Bobone. Also, the next CD I intend to purchase is her "Senhora Da Lapa" (This seems to be the only one available in the US).

And Regina, I have also listened to Cristina Branco and I like her as well. Actually I had order two DVD's, "Fado Today", and the second one has her performances.

Fortunately, all the CD's I have purchased come with the lyrics in both English and Portuguese. But I have started to try (With the emphasis on "try") to teach myself a little Portuguese.

Anyway, I must apologize to everyone for this digression since I am off topic. But just thought I would respond to Menarue's and Regina's recommendations.

I am very glad you did Keith and I hope that you continue to enjoy Fado as well as all this controversy about a non-existent throne.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Menarue

I am very glad you did Keith and I hope that you continue to enjoy Fado as well as all this controversy about a non-existent throne.

Thank you, and in fact I am listening to Ana Moura as I write this reply. In regard to the "throne", even though it is non-existent it is still integral to Portugal's history and therefore a wonderful tradition to maintain, and I would think that it still provides a point of unity and pride for the Portuguese people. From my perspective it seems to provide a depth to the Portuguese heritage. I am glad that you and others have this forum to continue the richness of that heritage.

[Menarue]

So am I.
I am reading a really enjoyable book called "Filipa de Lencastre" A rainha que mudou Portugal (The Queen who Changed Portugal) by Isabel Stilwell. I don´t know if it is translated into English yet but when it is you must read it.
As it is historically correct but written more as a novel it is very easy reading unlike some very dry historical books. I read them all, dry or not, but this one has been a welcome change.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Menarue

So am I.
I am reading a really enjoyable book called "Filipa de Lencastre" A rainha que mudou Portugal (The Queen who Changed Portugal) by Isabel Stilwell. I don´t know if it is translated into English yet but when it is you must read it.
As it is historically correct but written more as a novel it is very easy reading unlike some very dry historical books. I read them all, dry or not, but this one has been a welcome change.

I will look to see if that book is available. Right now, I have just started reading The Murmuring Coast by Lidia Jorge.

[Regina]

Originally Posted by JSP

Every book I read stated that D.Duarte Pio was born at the Portuguese Embassy in Berne.
It is a common knowledge fact.
If it was the opposite, I am sure someone, even from the Foreign Office, would have step forward for ages.

and
Paginas Oficiais da Casa Real Portuguesa

The official site of the Portuguese royal family is managed by D. Duarte so obviously he writes there what he wants.

JSP, with all my respect but the only thing that proves where D. Duarte was born is this official Birth Certificate (public document), that I found in reifazdeconta site.

The document includes the obvious informations about him (name, gender, birth date, parents's names) but also the important information for this topic: Naturality. The official document says he was born in Bern, Switzerland.

It dosn't mention any Embassy, or Portuguese soil, or whatever. It says Bern, Switzerland.

[Danny SR]

I must addmit I have never seen the birth certificate before but the embassy is in Bern, Switzerland so that is right, so it reallt doesnt prove or disprove anything. I know that if someone is born on a American militar base anywhere in the world they are american and the birth certificate would say name of base, USA. But I dont know how it works in other countries. At the end of the day only those who where there know exactly what happened. But one has to think that if in fact he was born in the embassy, which I dont think he is lieing about, there must be a record of it in the embassy, just look there...lol

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Danny SR

I must addmit I have never seen the birth certificate before but the embassy is in Bern, Switzerland so that is right, so it reallt doesnt prove or disprove anything. I know that if someone is born on a American militar base anywhere in the world they are american and the birth certificate would say name of base, USA. But I dont know how it works in other countries. At the end of the day only those who where there know exactly what happened. But one has to think that if in fact he was born in the embassy, which I dont think he is lieing about, there must be a record of it in the embassy, just look there...lol

If someone is born on an American militar base, the birth certificate will mention that, as you said. The same should be applied for Embassies

I agree with you, the document doesn't prove anything. If we believe or not that he was born in Portugal that's up with us. It's always a personal opinion. The reality is that till now I've never seen any (official) document declaring he was born in Portuguese soil.

[JSP]

I guess one could always try the Portuguese Foreign Office.
There shpuld be any record of such (unusual) event.

[Count]

Originally Posted by Regina

If someone is born on an American militar base, the birth certificate will mention that, as you said. The same should be applied for Embassies

I agree with you, the document doesn't prove anything. If we believe or not that he was born in Portugal that's up with us. It's always a personal opinion. The reality is that till now I've never seen any (official) document declaring he was born in Portuguese soil.

It not important where a person (in exile) was born...Don Juan Carlos was born in Rome during the exile of the Royal family and he is the King of Spain... that's why he speaks perfect Italian.

[JSP]

It's different.
Portuguese succession law required that the heir to the throne was born on portuguese "soil".

BTW where was JC born ? Their parent's house ? A hospital/maternity ?