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  #441  
Old 05-13-2017, 03:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ldmemail View Post
No Monarch is without resources ever ! They employ specialists to manage their portfolios etc. We will never know the full extent of the wealth but it is certainly there!
Is? Or was?

No any of the current Romanov descendants lives in great wealth. So we may assume it is no more. The tricky thing is that so much was at the disposal of Tsar and his family. But "at disposal" is not the same as "owning". It is the same as the fabulous jewels worn by Queen Silvia of Sweden or Queen Máxima of the Netherlands. Fully at their disposal. But when the dot meets the i, they do not own a single diamond of it: it is given at their disposal by the family foundation.

The Danish Queen in her best diamonds and emeralds? Stunning. Not her private property anyway. We need to keep this in eye. The magnificent Winter Palace. Tsarkoye Selo. The Kremlin. Too dazzling for words. But it was from Russia. No problem for the Tsars: they owned Russia anyway. It is soo entangled that it is a herculanean task to designate what belonged to Nicolas Romanov as a person or to "The Tsar" (read: "Russia").
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  #442  
Old 05-13-2017, 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Is? Or was?

No any of the current Romanov descendants lives in great wealth. So we may assume it is no more. The tricky thing is that so much was at the disposal of Tsar and his family. But "at disposal" is not the same as "owning". It is the same as the fabulous jewels worn by Queen Silvia of Sweden or Queen Máxima of the Netherlands. Fully at their disposal. But when the dot meets the i, they do not own a single diamond of it: it is given at their disposal by the family foundation.

The Danish Queen in her best diamonds and emeralds? Stunning. Not her private property anyway. We need to keep this in eye. The magnificent Winter Palace. Tsarkoye Selo. The Kremlin. Too dazzling for words. But it was from Russia. No problem for the Tsars: they owned Russia anyway. It is soo entangled that it is a herculanean task to designate what belonged to Nicolas Romanov as a person or to "The Tsar" (read: "Russia").


Oh yes you are right, the line that separates is often blurred, regarding the family foundations ... I think that when the chips ever become down the Swedish Royal Jewels will be the property of the head of the family - I notice that the jewels are worn only by the King's wife, daughters (& in law) and sisters. His nieces, cousins etc are not seen in them. This is not the case in the Netherlands.
Very interesting! I prefer the system used by HM Queen
Elizabeth II - she owns the majority of her collection!
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  #443  
Old 05-13-2017, 03:26 AM
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QEII owns very little of her collection. It belongs to the Royal Collection and thus to the State. At the moment only the BRF can wear what is in the Royal Collection but if they were every overthrown most of the jewels we associate with them would belong to the people of GB and not to Elizabeth Windsor.
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  #444  
Old 05-13-2017, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ldmemail View Post
Oh yes you are right, the line that separates is often blurred, regarding the family foundations ... I think that when the chips ever become down the Swedish Royal Jewels will be the property of the head of the family - I notice that the jewels are worn only by the King's wife, daughters (& in law) and sisters. His nieces, cousins etc are not seen in them. This is not the case in the Netherlands.
Very interesting! I prefer the system used by HM Queen
Elizabeth II - she owns the majority of her collection!
In both the Netherlands and Sweden these family foundations, which are just legal constructions, can be dissolved, making these properties private again but then the whole purpose of these foundations (keeping the historic collection together and at the disposal of the Bearer of the Crown) is thrown out of the window. When Queen Victoria became Queen, she had almost no jewels: the vast bulk of the royal jewels went to Hannover. So owning in private is nice, but comes with disadvantages as well, see Belgium.

With the Romanovs, absolute rulers in contrary to their European counterparts and in a country where even serfdom existed until deep in the 19th C, it is almost impossible to say what was in personal ownership or what was simply there for them because they were what they were in the imperial society.
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  #445  
Old 05-13-2017, 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I have the idea you are under the spell of the Yusupov name and fame.
;-)

When you are immensely rich because you own vast properties in Russia but all these are seized by the State and you are exiled, are you still immensely rich? The connection to these properties have been cut off, you are no longer able to enter Russia, you have no access anymore to the source of your wealth. Then your fortune will shrink fast. Very fast. Especially since these Russians knew nothing better than to continue the arch-expensive lifestyle they had while in exile.

The Yusupovs are no more. The last Yusupov marrieed in the Sheremetiev family. When there are still jewels around, then these are exhibited in museums or somewhere in ownership. Maybe there are still cassettes with a diamond collier here or a sapphire broche there, shattered over descendants. And that is it.

Yes, they had a lot of jewels. But even the Prince Yusupov will not have more than three suitcases with jewels or so (which still can constitute 12 tiaras, 23 colliers, 22 bracelets, 40 broches, etc.) but it is not that their collection was limitless ;-)
I just believe that a lot is still there hiding or missing. They haven't found all of the Yusupov's jewels and art collection same with the Romanov family and the relatives I listed.
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  #446  
Old 05-13-2017, 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
QEII owns very little of her collection. It belongs to the Royal Collection and thus to the State. At the moment only the BRF can wear what is in the Royal Collection but if they were every overthrown most of the jewels we associate with them would belong to the people of GB and not to Elizabeth Windsor.


I beg to differ - those jewels belonging to the Crown Collection are mainly those pieces that Queen Victoria decreed should be passed from Queen to Queen - hence they are usually called 'the Crown Pearls' or the 'State Diadem'. Their number is few however! Also these are different to the Crown Jewels themselves which is the collection of regalia used for a coronation and various previous crowns. The vast majority of Her Majesty's jewels are her own personal property made up from personal gifts and inheritance from her Mother and Grandmother. Mainly thanks to Queen Mary, each branch of the Royal Family has its own extensive collection of jewellery which belongs to them.
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  #447  
Old 05-13-2017, 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
-----
What people seem to suggest is that there was time to actually hide things when the reality is that there wasn't.

The Tsar was tsar one day and a total prisoner the next. They had no time from being top of the heap to bottom of the heap to hide things other than a few jewels sewn into their outfits. They certainly wouldn't have been wearing them after the February/March Revolution or it would have been torn off them very quickly.

Some lesser nobles may have been able to bribe their way out of the country but the leading lights of the Romanovs left either with what they had at the time. Many of the actual Romanov family were at the Black Sea homes to escape the Russian Winter while the Tsar's immediate family were still in Petrograd due to mumps or measles or something. Anything in the other homes would have been looted immediately - either destroyed or taken by peasants etc to sell for some bread or whatever else they could get to eat.

Once the Bolsheviks came to power there was more looting of the palaces to make into the property of the people.

They simply didn't have the time to hide stuff other than in their normal safes which would have been smashed to pieces.
----
I don't quite agree with you that there wasn't time to hide things away or that fortunes were placed in safes, which were inevitably destined to be opened. - That is underestimating people back then.
The (more violent) Bolshevik revolution didn't come out of the blue. And when it did it didn't automatically lead to looting everywhere. Not in the first wave.
Also, there had been unrest, even some looting, in the months prior to the revolution. Not to mention the semi-revolution after the Russian-Japanese War some ten years before.
Uprisings and unrest was not an unknown phenomenon in Russia, albeit far from as wide-spread as is often believed.

In that circumstance many families would have brought with them the most valuable possessions, simply to personally keep an eye on it. The Tzar family and some of the wealthiest nobles simply couldn't drag all of it with them, so a lot of their wealth would have been left behind.
Some did hide stuff away outside the safes, just in case...


Okay, many if not most families would have preferred to keep low or were simply outside St. Petersburg or Moscow when the revolution broke out. But there was no guarantee such an uprising would even succeed and it very nearly didn't!
So they didn't leave Russia. - Some because they chose to turn a blind eye to the volatile situation, some because they wouldn't and others because where were they to go in the middle of a world war? It was simply too dangerous.
So when the revolution came I imagine some families who had stayed on in the major cities would have been caught up in the revolution and would have had their fortunes "confiscated" if they had not been prudent enough to hide at least some of it away in time.
Others mainly outside the cities would have had time to hide at least some of their fortunes away, when they left their dachas. I don't believe many would have imagined they would never come back.
In some cases no doubt trusted servants left back in charge of houses and dachas would have at least attempted to hide something away. Keep in mind that the bonds between many servants and noble families were immensely strong! - Not to mention that the servants and their families would lose everything as well in the wake of a revolution.

Those families on the run would have faced the almost certainty of being set upon by revolutionaries, corrupt officials or criminals, so no wonder most lost most of their possessions. - In particular the more "poor" noble families, who would have carried most of their jewellery on them.
They either got away with most of it, or at best very little.

That's why I believe a good deal remains to be found in the weirdest places in Russia.
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  #448  
Old 05-13-2017, 04:05 AM
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I am not talking about the 'Crown Jewels' but the extensive are and jewellery collection called The Royal Collection. Most of the reason why they put the stuff there is to avoid death duties. By putting in that collection it is never subject to any sort of tax and so most of the jewels handed down from one member of the family to another belongs to that these days.

Anything not past from monarch to monarch is subject to very heavy death duties - which is why Margaret's Poltimore Tiara was sold - to pay the death duties on her estate.

Anything that any other branch of the family has will be subject to the same death duties and so there are two ways to deal with it - sell it or something else to pay the death duties or put it in the Royal Collection so that there are no death duties on it and it will still be available for future use.

It is very hard to work out what is the Queen's private property and what is the state's because so much has been put into the Royal Collection that we might say 'that is private' but the family have put it in the collection to ensure it stays in the family.

It is also why any estimate of The Queen's wealth is so difficult because people often include all of the Royal Collection e.g. all the items George IV purchased are now part of the Royal Collection even though he bought them from his private income at the time and he regarded them as his private property but now they are the property of the nation. Even things like BP and Windsor - which George IV bought and William I built are not regarded as the nation's properties and not the private property of the family.
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  #449  
Old 05-13-2017, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
I don't quite agree with you that there wasn't time to hide things away or that fortunes were placed in safes, which were inevitably destined to be opened. - That is underestimating people back then.
The (more violent) Bolshevik revolution didn't come out of the blue. And when it did it didn't automatically lead to looting everywhere. Not in the first wave.
Also, there had been unrest, even some looting, in the months prior to the revolution. Not to mention the semi-revolution after the Russian-Japanese War some ten years before.
Uprisings and unrest was not an unknown phenomenon in Russia, albeit far from as wide-spread as is often believed.

In that circumstance many families would have brought with them the most valuable possessions, simply to personally keep an eye on it. The Tzar family and some of the wealthiest nobles simply couldn't drag all of it with them, so a lot of their wealth would have been left behind.
Some did hide stuff away outside the safes, just in case...


Okay, many if not most families would have preferred to keep low or were simply outside St. Petersburg or Moscow when the revolution broke out. But there was no guarantee such an uprising would even succeed and it very nearly didn't!
So they didn't leave Russia. - Some because they chose to turn a blind eye to the volatile situation, some because they wouldn't and others because where were they to go in the middle of a world war? It was simply too dangerous.
So when the revolution came I imagine some families who had stayed on in the major cities would have been caught up in the revolution and would have had their fortunes "confiscated" if they had not been prudent enough to hide at least some of it away in time.
Others mainly outside the cities would have had time to hide at least some of their fortunes away, when they left their dachas. I don't believe many would have imagined they would never come back.
In some cases no doubt trusted servants left back in charge of houses and dachas would have at least attempted to hide something away. Keep in mind that the bonds between many servants and noble families were immensely strong! - Not to mention that the servants and their families would lose everything as well in the wake of a revolution.

Those families on the run would have faced the almost certainty of being set upon by revolutionaries, corrupt officials or criminals, so no wonder most lost most of their possessions. - In particular the more "poor" noble families, who would have carried most of their jewellery on them.
They either got away with most of it, or at best very little.

That's why I believe a good deal remains to be found in the weirdest places in Russia.
Exactly. That is why I believe Romanov's(Imperial Family), Empress Marie, Tsarina Alexandra, Grand Duchess Valdimir, and the Yusupov's still have a bulk of their jewels, art collection and antiques still missing and hidden to this day.
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  #450  
Old 05-13-2017, 05:18 AM
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I've read that the Tsar and his family withdrew, for patriotic reasons, all moneys, gold etc that was deposited in the Bank of England and elsewhere, and put them into Russian banks at the beginning of the First World War.

There was certainly nothing there in British banks for Marie, the Dowager Empress, though she was of course helped by her sister Queen Alexandra and brother the King of Denmark. However her daughter existed on a small pension given by George V and VI when she remained in England. Queen Mary bought many Russian treasures, Faberge etc that had once belonged to the Romanovs.

So, no I think there is little left. A few things might have been hidden. I believe someone found a box of Romanov trinkets a few years ago that had been left in a bank, but I think anything of huge value is long gone.
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  #451  
Old 05-13-2017, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
I am not talking about the 'Crown Jewels' but the extensive are and jewellery collection called The Royal Collection. Most of the reason why they put the stuff there is to avoid death duties. By putting in that collection it is never subject to any sort of tax and so most of the jewels handed down from one member of the family to another belongs to that these days.

Anything not past from monarch to monarch is subject to very heavy death duties - which is why Margaret's Poltimore Tiara was sold - to pay the death duties on her estate.

Anything that any other branch of the family has will be subject to the same death duties and so there are two ways to deal with it - sell it or something else to pay the death duties or put it in the Royal Collection so that there are no death duties on it and it will still be available for future use.

It is very hard to work out what is the Queen's private property and what is the state's because so much has been put into the Royal Collection that we might say 'that is private' but the family have put it in the collection to ensure it stays in the family.

It is also why any estimate of The Queen's wealth is so difficult because people often include all of the Royal Collection e.g. all the items George IV purchased are now part of the Royal Collection even though he bought them from his private income at the time and he regarded them as his private property but now they are the property of the nation. Even things like BP and Windsor - which George IV bought and William I built are not regarded as the nation's properties and not the private property of the family.


I'm afraid I don't agree with a few points you have raised. The Royal Collection is not the property of the State but the Crown - slightly different. Her Majesty's jewellery is not part of the Royal Collection.
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  #452  
Old 05-13-2017, 06:22 AM
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I've read that the Tsar and his family withdrew, for patriotic reasons, all moneys, gold etc that was deposited in the Bank of England and elsewhere, and put them into Russian banks at the beginning of the First World War.

There was certainly nothing there in British banks for Marie, the Dowager Empress, though she was of course helped by her sister Queen Alexandra and brother the King of Denmark. However her daughter existed on a small pension given by George V and VI when she remained in England. Queen Mary bought many Russian treasures, Faberge etc that had once belonged to the Romanovs.

So, no I think there is little left. A few things might have been hidden. I believe someone found a box of Romanov trinkets a few years ago that had been left in a bank, but I think anything of huge value is long gone.
Indeed, and as I wrote earlier in in this thread: nothing so ostentatious as Russian billionaires. So every hidden diamond can easily sufrace again, no problem in today's Russia. When these jewels still not re-surface in 2017, we way assume these are lost.

I feel people underestimate the disastrous effect of 100 years of revolution, exile, famine, prosecution, oppression, two world wars, the terrors of Stalinism and Nazism as well communist rule.

Note that also the former royal and noble familis in the East of Europe suffered the same fate. The "lucky ones" were the aristocrats in the western part of Germany, in Austria, in Italy, in France, etc.
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  #453  
Old 05-13-2017, 08:39 AM
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I'm afraid I don't agree with a few points you have raised. The Royal Collection is not the property of the State but the Crown - slightly different. Her Majesty's jewellery is not part of the Royal Collection.
Agree..........
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  #454  
Old 05-13-2017, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Indeed, and as I wrote earlier in in this thread: nothing so ostentatious as Russian billionaires. So every hidden diamond can easily sufrace again, no problem in today's Russia. When these jewels still not re-surface in 2017, we way assume these are lost.

I feel people underestimate the disastrous effect of 100 years of revolution, exile, famine, prosecution, oppression, two world wars, the terrors of Stalinism and Nazism as well communist rule.

Note that also the former royal and noble familis in the East of Europe suffered the same fate. The "lucky ones" were the aristocrats in the western part of Germany, in Austria, in Italy, in France, etc.

ITA. WWI, WWII and dissolution of monarchies all over Europe/Central Asia.

It's pretty mind boggling to think about about it. The immense wealth/power that changed hands.


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  #455  
Old 05-13-2017, 12:45 PM
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So does anyone know the answer if a lot of Marie, Alexandra Duchess Vladimir, Yusupov and the Imperial Royal Family jewels, art collection and antiques still missing or hidden today?
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  #456  
Old 05-13-2017, 12:50 PM
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From few years ago:

https://www.thelocal.se/20090828/21744

Jewels were distributed to the descendants of Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna elder and some of them found it's way to various auction houses.
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  #457  
Old 05-13-2017, 01:07 PM
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The thread Is there still ALOT of Romanov treasures that has not been found yet? has been merged with this thread because it concerns the same topic of Russian Imperial Jewels.
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  #458  
Old 05-13-2017, 01:13 PM
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So does anyone know the answer if a lot of Marie, Alexandra Duchess Vladimir, Yusupov and the Imperial Royal Family jewels, art collection and antiques still missing or hidden today?
No, of course nobody here knows the definite answers. There's a lot of speculation, of course. There have been generations of treasure hunters trying to get their hands of some of the Romanov riches, there are still people who hope to be the ones that find barrels stuffed with Romanov jewels in some corner of Siberia. But for all that we know, this barrels of jewels may just be a myth.
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  #459  
Old 05-13-2017, 01:41 PM
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No, of course nobody here knows the definite answers. There's a lot of speculation, of course. There have been generations of treasure hunters trying to get their hands of some of the Romanov riches, there are still people who hope to be the ones that find barrels stuffed with Romanov jewels in some corner of Siberia. But for all that we know, this barrels of jewels may just be a myth.
Well I certainly believe it. Also I read that some jars from Tobolsk that the Imperial Family were imprisoned and killed the Bolsheviks found the jars but apparently didn't find all of the jars full of jewels.
So you are saying that there is a possibility that a lot of the Imperial family, Empress Marie, Tsarina Alexandra, Grand Duchess Valdimir and the Yusupov's family jewelry, art paintings and antiques as of today can still be hidden or missing?
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  #460  
Old 05-13-2017, 02:33 PM
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Its impossible to know where all the jewels are today. Id say most were broken up by citizens that found them & then traded them in one stone at a time in at special stores during the 20s & 30s for luxuries not available at the normal stores. These stores were set up by the governement to get in things they could sell abroad. I also read how one morganatic descendant of a grand duke got rid of most of the little that her family had saved because it would be to dangerous if the authorities found out who she was. I cant remember much about her other than that she at one time in her life performed with her motorbike.
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