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  #421  
Old 05-12-2017, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
I think it unlikely there are many hidden. Most likely they were redistributed after being 'appropriated' seems like I heard some things were destroyed as well.

The 'Amber room' from the Catherine Palace is still missing. I think it's been reconstructed now but most of the original work is gone.


LaRae
Do you know how big Russia and this world is? I think there is still ALOT missing or hidden.
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  #422  
Old 05-12-2017, 06:24 PM
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There are antique shops loaded with Romanov jewelry and picture frames and jewelry boxes. I am certain that there are zillions of everything out there.
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  #423  
Old 05-12-2017, 06:39 PM
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The amber room was destroyed by the Nazis at the end of WWII.

A lot of art works and other jewels etc that fell into the hands of the Nazis was redistributed.

There has been a rumour for some years that there is some in a Swiss bank account but without the correct number etc it can't be opened.

Many of the Romanovs were able to flee the country and they took a lot of their jewels with them. These were then sold to finance their post-revolutionary life and many of the current royal families even assisted their cousins by buying pieces and then often redesiging them or having them as they are.

Given how fast everything happened I really do doubt that there is all that much 'hidden'.

The revolutionaries in the first revolution went into the homes and ransacked - not only the homes of the Romanovs but any wealthy Russian and destroyed or sold on whatever they could find so by the time the Bolsheviks came to power a lot had already left Russia.

Do I think there is a 'secret stash' of jewels etc - no.
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  #424  
Old 05-12-2017, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by AristoCat View Post
There are antique shops loaded with Romanov jewelry and picture frames and jewelry boxes. I am certain that there are zillions of everything out there.
Thats what I feel as well, The Romanovs were the wealthiest monarchy at that time and the jewels were envied by the other monarchs including the UK. The world is huge I am 100% sure that there is a lot of hidden treasures and jewels that has not been found yet.
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  #425  
Old 05-12-2017, 07:09 PM
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i think there is still is some hidden jewellery , if i recall from the documentary about the royal jewels the part about russia i think someone maybe prince michael of greece but i'm not so sure that said that the emperor and empress had a lot of jewellry with them in box and that it is hidden somewhere but nobody knows where they are i think some of it were found in a monastery but not all of it .
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  #426  
Old 05-12-2017, 07:26 PM
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Yes, it is referred to as the Sokolov Box; it is supposed to contain the remains of the Romanovs and jewels that were never sold off, but kept.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitty1224 View Post
Thats what I feel as well, The Romanovs were the wealthiest monarchy at that time and the jewels were envied by the other monarchs including the UK. The world is huge I am 100% sure that there is a lot of hidden treasures and jewels that has not been found yet.
The Tsar was the wealthiest world leader at that time with his wealth counted up to twenty billion in bullion and then the stakes in oil companies and timber companies; throw in the fact that he owned all the land as autocrat (with the exception of church lands) he was limitless in his wealth. The Romanovs were fanatics for jewels and just by looking at what is known in museums we're seeing a dynasty that LOVED being royal to the full and lived like the very definition of how people thought royals should live.
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  #427  
Old 05-12-2017, 07:50 PM
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There is no doubt a lot of jewellery hidden away to this day. IIRC there was a documentary which strongly suggested that a good deal of the Tzar-family's jewellery which they brought with them when going to Siberia was hidden in or around a cloister.
I was also suggested nuns hid the jewellery away. - It may still be there.

And then there is the extended Imperial family, some of them may also have hidden away something. If for no other reason than ensuring it wouldn't all be lost if they were robbed, searched or simply lost their baggage. Many would have had several properties and I can easily imagine that some "secondary" jewellery were left there. - Secondary jewellery still worth a minor fortune!

Not to mention that some of the nobles families were fabulously wealthy as well!

Finding something buried next to say "the twelfth pine-tree to the left" at some dacha would be next to impossible without a systematic search with metal detectors. - And even then it would be difficult!
Many of those trusted people who were in the know must have died at the hands of the Bolsheviks or during the Civil War or simply from disease or hunger in the early 1920's.
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  #428  
Old 05-12-2017, 08:15 PM
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^It says a lot that many servants of the Romanovs would rather die through horrific torture rather than reveal the location of the hidden wealth. One servant only broke after being horribly tortured for hours on end and I don't blame the servant at all for not being able to withstand all that torture.
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  #429  
Old 05-12-2017, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
There is no doubt a lot of jewellery hidden away to this day. IIRC there was a documentary which strongly suggested that a good deal of the Tzar-family's jewellery which they brought with them when going to Siberia was hidden in or around a cloister.
I was also suggested nuns hid the jewellery away. - It may still be there.

And then there is the extended Imperial family, some of them may also have hidden away something. If for no other reason than ensuring it wouldn't all be lost if they were robbed, searched or simply lost their baggage. Many would have had several properties and I can easily imagine that some "secondary" jewellery were left there. - Secondary jewellery still worth a minor fortune!

Not to mention that some of the nobles families were fabulously wealthy as well!

Finding something buried next to say "the twelfth pine-tree to the left" at some dacha would be next to impossible without a systematic search with metal detectors. - And even then it would be difficult!
Many of those trusted people who were in the know must have died at the hands of the Bolsheviks or during the Civil War or simply from disease or hunger in the early 1920's.
But the Bolsheviks even though they took a lot of the jewels, art and antiques there is still a lot of hidden treasures from the imperial family as well as the relatives.
Is is there still a lot of hidden treasures from the House of Yusupov jewels, art paintings and antiques? As well as Empress Marie, Tsarina Alexandra and Grand Duchess Vladimir?
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  #430  
Old 05-13-2017, 01:09 AM
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We know that the Tsarina and her daughters sewed jewels into their corsets to be used as a form of bribery and currency in case they managed to escape the Bolsheviks. However, surely the Tsarina's art, jewellery, porcelain etc would have been counted as part of the Imperial art treasures within the Palaces, not separate. The Tsarina before her marriage was a relatively poor Hessian princess. She would have had no personal fortune of her own.

Felix Yusopov calculated his family fortune just before the Revolution in one of his books. The family was worth between 1 and 10 billion in today's money. However, Felix referred to visiting the family's more remote estates in 1912 and seeing old outbuildings partly caved in through wind and weather that still held old paintings and other objects that had been hidden there because the Romanovs had raided Yusopov wealth in the past. It's possible the same sort of thing could have been done to hide things from the Bolsheviks.
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  #431  
Old 05-13-2017, 01:40 AM
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Ther is not much left. Think about it. The World War I followed by the Russian Revolution. Lenin's collectivitionism in which private properties were declared "collective property" and saw magnificent residences destroyed for a milk factory, or changed into a school, fabulous gardens changed in farmlands. Of course first after a looting "in name of the people".

Then came Stalin's Terror. The Great Famine. The nobles trapped in Russia were locked up in working camps, in kolchozes or sovchozes (collective farms) or deported into Siberia and exposed to unbearable suffering. Of course with the usual scenes of desperate countesses or baronesses going to KGB offices, begging for mercy for their beloved ones and offering the last they have to bring the monsters on other thoughts...

Then Hitler invaded Russia in World War II with an immense war machine and deployed "the policy of burned earth", destroying all and everything on their way, to get Russia on it's knees.

The magnificent palaces of St Petersburg were under hellish fire, alike Aleppo in our days. This, and other cities, were ruined. Then came the immense effort to build up the country again and manage to remain a par with the USA in defence efforts. Then came the collapse of the whole Empire.

These days there is nothing more ostentatious than Russian billionaires. Everything with a link to glorious Russia is bought by these oligarchs. From Fabergé eggs to imperial furniture is bought.

If there was really still something left from Russian jewels after these exhausting hundred years, then it was already bought for a Russian oligarch's trophy wife... Note that most jewels were destroyed: materials were melted down, diamonds, sapphires, emeralds, etc. were sold on the markets to finance the cash-strapped communist state.

No, there is very little left.
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  #432  
Old 05-13-2017, 01:55 AM
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Anything that was smuggled out of Russia was sold in the west with families like the BRF buying it - often for a knockdown price but something might cover the expenses of a down on their luck Russian royal or noble for a year or so.

What people seem to suggest is that there was time to actually hide things when the reality is that there wasn't.

The Tsar was tsar one day and a total prisoner the next. They had no time from being top of the heap to bottom of the heap to hide things other than a few jewels sewn into their outfits. They certainly wouldn't have been wearing them after the February/March Revolution or it would have been torn off them very quickly.

Some lesser nobles may have been able to bribe their way out of the country but the leading lights of the Romanovs left either with what they had at the time. Many of the actual Romanov family were at the Black Sea homes to escape the Russian Winter while the Tsar's immediate family were still in Petrograd due to mumps or measles or something. Anything in the other homes would have been looted immediately - either destroyed or taken by peasants etc to sell for some bread or whatever else they could get to eat.

Once the Bolsheviks came to power there was more looting of the palaces to make into the property of the people.

They simply didn't have the time to hide stuff other than in their normal safes which would have been smashed to pieces.

Anything the government got its hands on was used to fund first the Civil War and then the start of the industrialisation of the country until such time as there was nothing left and Stalin had to go after the wealthier peasants having already sold off anything they could get their hands on from the royal and noble families.

Even if there was any - under current Russian laws - it would all belong to the Russian people (the Yusopovs tried some years ago to regain their property and were told that as they hadn't made a claim on it within 70 years of it having been taken by the state they had lost all title to it - I was told that when visiting the Yusopov Palace in St Petersburg - where Rasputin was murdered??)
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  #433  
Old 05-13-2017, 01:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AristoCat View Post
[.....]


The Tsar was the wealthiest world leader at that time with his wealth [....]
I think it was not the Tsar's wealth. It was Russia's wealth. But as an absolutist monarch any Tsar thought alike Louis XIV: "L'État, c'est moi." ("I am the State".)

I think we can not say the Tsar as a person was wealthy. It was Russia. And Russia was the Tsar. And the Tsar was Russia. When the monarchy ended the Tsar had nothing anymore than what Mother Russia allowed him: a train waggon, a deserted school, a house in Yekaterinenburg. Yes. The Tsarina and the Grand-Princesses have sewn diamonds into their corsets. That is all what they had from their supposed immense wealth, which was more Russia's than their own private belongings.
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  #434  
Old 05-13-2017, 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
We know that the Tsarina and her daughters sewed jewels into their corsets to be used as a form of bribery and currency in case they managed to escape the Bolsheviks. However, surely the Tsarina's art, jewellery, porcelain etc would have been counted as part of the Imperial art treasures within the Palaces, not separate. The Tsarina before her marriage was a relatively poor Hessian princess. She would have had no personal fortune of her own.

Felix Yusopov calculated his family fortune just before the Revolution in one of his books. The family was worth between 1 and 10 billion in today's money. However, Felix referred to visiting the family's more remote estates in 1912 and seeing old outbuildings partly caved in through wind and weather that still held old paintings and other objects that had been hidden there because the Romanovs had raided Yusopov wealth in the past. It's possible the same sort of thing could have been done to hide things from the Bolsheviks.
So what you are saying is that there is none of the Tsarina jewels, art and antiques that are still missing or hidden? Also, the same with the Yusupov's?
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  #435  
Old 05-13-2017, 02:20 AM
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The Romanovs were immensely wealthy! The Tsar had a vast personal fortune - including gold reserves held with the Bank of England. Each member of the Imperial Family received apps ages from the family estates - again they each deposited large amounts in banks all over the world. Once they were toppled from the throne the revolutionary government seized their assets and stopped the distribution of wealth.
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  #436  
Old 05-13-2017, 02:30 AM
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The Romanovs were immensely wealthy! The Tsar had a vast personal fortune - including gold reserves held with the Bank of England. Each member of the Imperial Family received apps ages from the family estates - again they each deposited large amounts in banks all over the world. Once they were toppled from the throne the revolutionary government seized their assets and stopped the distribution of wealth.
No. Compare it with the Shah in Iran. All his magnificent jewels are still in Teheran. "He" was immensely rich. The Shah was Iran. And Iran was the Shah. When he wanted the best jewels for the Shahbanou, the State paid the bill. A lavish party in Persepolis! Send the bill to the State. A new Ferrari? The State pays.

When the monarchy ended, alike the Tsars, the Shah was left with only a fraction of his once enjoyed wealth. What was left soon disappeared as cloud bedore the sun. He had a to finance exile, medical costs, his family had to build new lives outside Iran. The Shahbanou Farah Diba often has been helped by donations from supporters.

Russia was immensely rich. The Tsar was Russia. Russia was the Tsar. But as soon as that alliance ended, the Tsar had nothing. The foreign bank accounts were from Russia. Not necessarily from the Tsar.
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  #437  
Old 05-13-2017, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
No. Compare it with the Shah in Iran. All his magnificent jewels are still in Teheran. "He" was immensely rich. The Shah was Iran. And Iran was the Shah. When he wanted the best jewels for the Shahbanou, the State paid the bill. A lavish party in Persepolis! Send the bill to the State. A new Ferrari? The State pays.

When the monarchy ended, alike the Tsars, the Shah was left with only a fraction of his once enjoyed wealth. What was left soon disappeared as cloud bedore the sun. He had a to finance exile, medical costs, his family had to build new lives outside Iran. The Shahbanou Farah Diba often has been helped by donations from supporters.

Russia was immensely rich. The Tsar was Russia. Russia was the Tsar. But as soon as that alliance ended, the Tsar had nothing. The foreign bank accounts were from Russia. Not necessarily from the Tsar.


Well I have read extensively on the subject - two books spring to mind - The Lost Wealth of the Tsars by William Clarke and Nicholas and Alexandra by Robert K Massie. Both these books dispute what you say - amongst others of course.
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  #438  
Old 05-13-2017, 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Kitty1224 View Post
So what you are saying is that there is none of the Tsarina jewels, art and antiques that are still missing or hidden? Also, the same with the Yusupov's?
I have the idea you are under the spell of the Yusupov name and fame.
;-)

When you are immensely rich because you own vast properties in Russia but all these are seized by the State and you are exiled, are you still immensely rich? The connection to these properties have been cut off, you are no longer able to enter Russia, you have no access anymore to the source of your wealth. Then your fortune will shrink fast. Very fast. Especially since these Russians knew nothing better than to continue the arch-expensive lifestyle they had while in exile.

The Yusupovs are no more. The last Yusupov marrieed in the Sheremetiev family. When there are still jewels around, then these are exhibited in museums or somewhere in ownership. Maybe there are still cassettes with a diamond collier here or a sapphire broche there, shattered over descendants. And that is it.

Yes, they had a lot of jewels. But even the Prince Yusupov will not have more than three suitcases with jewels or so (which still can constitute 12 tiaras, 23 colliers, 22 bracelets, 40 broches, etc.) but it is not that their collection was limitless ;-)
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  #439  
Old 05-13-2017, 02:52 AM
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Well I have read extensively on the subject - two books spring to mind - The Lost Wealth of the Tsars by William Clarke and Nicholas and Alexandra by Robert K Massie. Both these books dispute what you say - amongst others of course.
This sort of experts also claimed that Queen Wilhelmina owned Shell Oil (not true), KLM (not true) and that she was the riches woman on earth (not true). I have read Robert K. Massie too. For a historian I found his tone too Kitty Kelley: let us spice it all up, build some cliffhangers into the book, let us deceive American buyers to buy about Nicholas and Alexandra.

When the monarchy ended, finally Nicholas and Alexandra had little more than the room they were in at the Ipatiev Villa, plus the mythical sewn-in diamonds in the dresses of the grand-princesses.

When the Tsar wanted to build a new palace, then a new palace was build. The bill went to the State. After all the Tsar was Russia. And Russia was the Tsar. The Tsar buying something in Paris? "Send the bill to the Russian Embassy, good man".
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  #440  
Old 05-13-2017, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
This sort of experts also claimed that Queen Wilhelmina owned Shell Oil (not true), KLM (not true) and that she was the riches woman on earth (not true). I have read Robert K. Massie too. For a historian I found his tone too Kitty Kelley: let us spice it all up, build some cliffhangers into the book, let us deceive American buyers to buy about Nicholas and Alexandra.



When the monarchy ended, finally Nicholas and Alexandra had little more than the room they were in at the Ipatiev Villa, plus the mythical sewn-in diamonds in the dresses of the grand-princesses.



When the Tsar wanted to build a new palace, then a new palace was build. The bill went to the State. After all the Tsar was Russia. And Russia was the Tsar. The Tsar buying something in Paris? "Send the bill to the Russian Embassy, good man".


No Monarch is without resources ever ! They employ specialists to manage their portfolios etc. We will never know the full extent of the wealth but it is certainly there!
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