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  #41  
Old 08-29-2016, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by padams2359 View Post
With so much of QV's jewelry left to the crown, I'm surprised that this piece was QM's to give away.
Only the Coronation Necklace, the Coronation Earrings, the Bow Brooches and Prince Albert's Sapphire Brooch are left "to the Crown" (with that I mean Queen Elizabeth II). With so many children and grandchildren it is clear Queen Victoria was not so caring about the direct line. Maybe because she knew her Heirs on the throne will always have sufficient means to puchase jewels, something the junior descendants lack.
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  #42  
Old 08-29-2016, 07:52 AM
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I think the Queen has learned a lesson from family members. I believe everything we see on family members are lifetime loans and not gifts.

It makes no sense whatsoever to gift jewels, only to have the children or grandchildren sell it for death duties.

Keep it all with the monarch, and pass it down to the next king or queen.
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  #43  
Old 08-29-2016, 10:09 AM
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The bracelet Catherine wore is The Queen's. She's not giving it away.

It would be nice if the British royals bought the coronet. If I had the money, I would buy it and return it to the monarchy.
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  #44  
Old 08-29-2016, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
The bracelet Catherine wore is The Queen's. She's not giving it away.

It would be nice if the British royals bought the coronet. If I had the money, I would buy it and return it to the monarchy.
It can cause an unpleasant precedent: the Queen feeling pressed to buy jewels from the Kents, the Gloucesters, the Yorks, etc. because she did so to the Harewoods. She also did not buy jewels from her uncle the Duke of Windsor or her sister the Princess Margaret.

The British royal family has a gigantic amount of jewels. The Duchess of Cornwall has received lavish jewelry gifts. The Queen likewise. That seems the norm: get it all for free.
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  #45  
Old 08-29-2016, 02:42 PM
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Not familiar with how trusts and wills work in the U.K.

Here in the U.S. there is a way to put things in trusts in order to avoid all the taxes/probate courts etc. Is that not done in the U.K.?

Just wondering if there was a way for this royal/noble families to not be forced into selling these heirlooms...?


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  #46  
Old 08-29-2016, 03:01 PM
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Yes, and I am sure the royals like other estates have become smart about such things

The 10 best ways to avoid inheritance tax - Money To The Masses

Anne seems sensible and likely taken such precautions. Both her kids have careers and trusts, and neither live extravagantly. I don't either selling off family heirlooms to pay bills.
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  #47  
Old 08-29-2016, 03:09 PM
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There is a great article on the orderofsplendor blog about jewels held in trust to avoid being sold off The Royal Order of Sartorial Splendor: Royal Splendor 101: Family Jewel Foundations

It surprises me that the BRF doesn't seem to use a trust to protect its jewels to prevent them from being sold off, that being said most of the important ones are now owned by the Queen who can pass them on to the next sovereign without tax being paid so in someway the current situation protects the most important jewels already, this is why we see so many 'loans' rather than gifts from the Queen.
Hopefully the jewels owned by other members of the royal family are protected in someway or another.
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  #48  
Old 08-29-2016, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
There is a great article on the orderofsplendor blog about jewels held in trust to avoid being sold off The Royal Order of Sartorial Splendor: Royal Splendor 101: Family Jewel Foundations

It surprises me that the BRF doesn't seem to use a trust to protect its jewels to prevent them from being sold off, that being said most of the important ones are now owned by the Queen who can pass them on to the next sovereign without tax being paid so in someway the current situation protects the most important jewels already, this is why we see so many 'loans' rather than gifts from the Queen.
Hopefully the jewels owned by other members of the royal family are protected in someway or another.
BRF has:
1. Crown Jewels of the United Kingdom (this group includes crowns, etc.)
2. jewels, left by Queen Victoria and Queen Alexandra to the Crown (this group includes many tiaras, necklaces, brooches, etc.)
3. The Royal Collection (all jewels received as official gifts by the Royal Family during last 20 years )
4. private jewels

There is no need to put all jewels in one trust
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  #49  
Old 08-29-2016, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
The bracelet Catherine wore is The Queen's. She's not giving it away.

It would be nice if the British royals bought the coronet. If I had the money, I would buy it and return it to the monarchy.
Obviously the BRF don't think this piece is all that important or they would have probably bought it from the Harewood's.

It was a personal gift to her daughter by Queen Mary who would have known that it would not be protected by the sovereign to sovereign tax free arrangements and knew about death duties as they had come into being while her husband was Prince of Wales. She still decided to give it permanently to her daughter.

If it was returned to the monarchy it would probably end up in a vault somewhere never to be seen, or even broken up to create new pieces for someone - which is where the Queen's bracelet came from along with her engagement ring.
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  #50  
Old 08-29-2016, 05:56 PM
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There also are plenty of tiaras in house already including the oriental circlet designed by Albert for Victoria.


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  #51  
Old 08-29-2016, 07:24 PM
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The problem with historic pieces with a huge price tag is that if "the royal family" buys them, they look as if they are taking food/medical/defense/etc care away from others - because everyone believes it comes out of public funding.
Were I a years gone royal, I'd have put it all in the crown ownership and loaned it. But years ago, no one had any idea (or much idea) that people would hate the idea of royals buying back tiaras. Sad for us, practical for the BRF.



QUOTE=Iluvbertie;1920280]Obviously the BRF don't think this piece is all that important or they would have probably bought it from the Harewood's.

It was a personal gift to her daughter by Queen Mary who would have known that it would not be protected by the sovereign to sovereign tax free arrangements and knew about death duties as they had come into being while her husband was Prince of Wales. She still decided to give it permanently to her daughter.

If it was returned to the monarchy it would probably end up in a vault somewhere never to be seen, or even broken up to create new pieces for someone - which is where the Queen's bracelet came from along with her engagement ring.[/QUOTE]
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  #52  
Old 08-29-2016, 07:57 PM
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if the queen tried to buy it a lot will start saying for instance if the queen are able to buy a royal heirloom for 6 millions then why wouldn't she pay for renovating the palace she lives in
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  #53  
Old 08-29-2016, 09:07 PM
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I think the queen buying it would be a pr nightmare. Doesn't matter what we think. I think the Carnarvons and the Cavendishes have figured out how to get around the death taxes issue. If not, the houses would be completely bare by now. Isn't the death taxes compounded by 140% over two generations? That is a lot of cash to generate in order to keep your bric a brac, no matter how fine it is. You still have to eat, and fix the roof.
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  #54  
Old 08-29-2016, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Only the Coronation Necklace, the Coronation Earrings, the Bow Brooches and Prince Albert's Sapphire Brooch are left "to the Crown" (with that I mean Queen Elizabeth II). With so many children and grandchildren it is clear Queen Victoria was not so caring about the direct line. Maybe because she knew her Heirs on the throne will always have sufficient means to puchase jewels, something the junior descendants lack.
Also, the Crown Rubies and Oriental Circlet most often worn by The Queen Mother are Crown property as is the Amethyst demi-parure from Queen Victoria's mother. "To the Crown" is as close to a jewel foundation as the BRF has at the moment: these jewels are not personal property and must be worn only by Queens and Queens Consort. They cannot be sold.
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  #55  
Old 08-29-2016, 10:13 PM
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Oh for an anonymous, twenty-first centrury Ms/Mr/Mrs Greville with a yen to see it stay in the UK in a safe in the royal collection, to be seen at suitable occasions so that plebs like me can sigh!
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  #56  
Old 08-29-2016, 10:14 PM
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Queen Victoria coronet could go overseas without UK buyer

Quote:
Originally Posted by padams2359 View Post
I think the queen buying it would be a pr nightmare. Doesn't matter what we think. I think the Carnarvons and the Cavendishes have figured out how to get around the death taxes issue. If not, the houses would be completely bare by now. Isn't the death taxes compounded by 140% over two generations? That is a lot of cash to generate in order to keep your bric a brac, no matter how fine it is. You still have to eat, and fix the roof.

You can use a trust to avoid the inheritance tax but peers with large houses have to keep the income flowing to maintain them by paying visitors, rental cottages, corporate events, weddings etc. The popularity of Downton Abbey drove tourists to Highclere Castle which allowed the Earl of Carnarvon to make needed repairs.

The Queen is limited on ways she can fundraise which the nobility don't have. I agree spending 5 million on a tiara instead of fixing the roof or replacing heating system would be a pr disaster.


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  #57  
Old 08-29-2016, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by AdmirerUS View Post
The problem with historic pieces with a huge price tag is that if "the royal family" buys them, they look as if they are taking food/medical/defense/etc care away from others - because everyone believes it comes out of public funding.
Were I a years gone royal, I'd have put it all in the crown ownership and loaned it. But years ago, no one had any idea (or much idea) that people would hate the idea of royals buying back tiaras. Sad for us, practical for the BRF.



QUOTE=Iluvbertie;1920280]Obviously the BRF don't think this piece is all that important or they would have probably bought it from the Harewood's.

It was a personal gift to her daughter by Queen Mary who would have known that it would not be protected by the sovereign to sovereign tax free arrangements and knew about death duties as they had come into being while her husband was Prince of Wales. She still decided to give it permanently to her daughter.

If it was returned to the monarchy it would probably end up in a vault somewhere never to be seen, or even broken up to create new pieces for someone - which is where the Queen's bracelet came from along with her engagement ring.
[/QUOTE]

George V owned the coronet, not his wife. She could not give the coronet to Mary
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  #58  
Old 08-29-2016, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
Did Princess Mary The Countess of Harewood or one of her sons sell the coronet to a dealer in London?
The Princess Royal died in 1965. After her death, most of her jewels were sold (including the Harewood Scroll Tiara.)
The coronet remained with the family until 2011 when the earl died.
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  #59  
Old 08-29-2016, 11:12 PM
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There are certain parts of the story that just don't ring true. There is no doubt in my mind that the dealer is Wartski (which bought the coronet after the late earl's death in 2011.) This could get delayed until next June. I think the foreign buyer is a stooge - to get Attention for this coronet and have it bought or a huge amount of money. Wartski has 2 royal appointment. See my post from earlier today Royal Musings: The last time Queen Victoria's Coronet was worn -- so what's the story
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  #60  
Old 08-29-2016, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by MarleneKoenig View Post
Queen Mary did not give the gift. George V owned the jewels

I believe George V and Queen Mary jointly have it to their daughter. It might have been something that George V inherited or was given to him (or given to his wife), but was likely viewed as "theirs" owing to the fact that they were married.
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