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  #81  
Old 09-23-2006, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I do get the feeling that MT wanted to see them gone. She's apparantly been on a bit of a purge ridding the palaces of any trace of JC she can find. I'm not a fan of MT, I adored JC and I find the thought of selling off her possessions completely unnessecary and spiteful.
Well said. I prefer JC to MT as well. I am glad that this sale isn't going to proceed.
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  #82  
Old 09-23-2006, 08:40 AM
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Problematic heritages - where have all the fabulous jewels gone?

Not only Grand-Duke Jean but also all who inherit from the late Grand-Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte have to give up their claim on a considerable part of her heritage to enable a transfer to a Foundation.

Like in the Netherlands, also in Luxembourg (which has a lot common with the Netherlands' law-system due to the royal union between the two countries) there is no such thing as 'Crown Property'. It is private property (can be either a natural person or a legal person) or state property. Like in the Netherlands also in Luxembourg the inheritance regulations are that all children receive a so-called 'child's portion' and the surviving spouse receives 'half plus one child's portion'. 'Disinheriting someone' is legally impossible.

The late Grand-Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte had 5 children. Her husband receives half (5 portions) plus 1 child's portion. That means:

6/11 for the surviving spouse, HRH Grand-Duke Jean of Luxembourg
1/11 for HI&RH Archduchess Marie-Astrid of Austria born Princess of Luxembourg
1/11 for HRH The Grand-Duke of Luxembourg, Duke of Nassau
1/11 for HRH Prince Jean of Luxembourg
1/11 for HRH Princess Margaretha von und zu Liechtenstein born Princess of Luxembourg
1/11 for HRH Prince Guillaume of Luxembourg
-----
11/11

You see, the value of Grand-Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte's heritage must be divided by 11 parts. Or Grand-Duke Jean must 'outpay' his children and keep the jewels. The family may be rich, that does not mean there is enough liquid cashflow to 'outpay' the children and to pay the succession taxes.

Belgium has a similar system as the Netherlands and Luxembourg. Much of the late Princess Lilian's jewels needed to be sold because Princess Marie-Christine of Belgium needed the cash badly, as she was almost broke and living in poor circumstances in the United States.

The inheritance of King Leopold III of the Belgians went as follows:

7/13 to the surviving spouse, HRH Princess Lilian of Belgium, Princess of Réthy
1/13 to HRH Grand-Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte of Luxembourg, Duchess of Nassau born Princess of Belgium
1/13 to HM King Baudouin of the Belgians
1/13 to HRH Prince Albert of Belgium, the Prince of Liège
1/13 to HRH Prince Alexander of Belgium
1/13 to HRH Princess Marie-Christine of Belgium
1/13 to HRH Princess Marie-Esmeralda of Belgium
-----
13/13

You see that the possessions of the late King Leopold III became very fragmented. After the death of Princess Lilian (owner of fabulous royal jewels) almost nothing went to the Belgian royal family:

1/3 to HRH Prince Alexander of Belgium
1/3 to HRH Princess Marie-Christine of Belgium
1/3 to HRH Princess Marie-Esmeralda of Belgium
-----
3/3

Because Princess Marie-Christine wanted the money, the two other siblings had to sell the priceless items to 'outpay' her inheritance. Here lies the answer for the question: 'Where have all the fabulous jewels gone?'
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  #83  
Old 09-23-2006, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
You're right Zonk. Everyone I speak to either likes MT or JC. Not the two together. I'll always be a JC boy though. I mean, everyone with those initials is pretty fab. Josephine-Charlotte, Joan Crawford, Jesus Christ. Now that's logic.
You've just found one, Beatrixfan! I loved Josephine-Charlotte very much but I like Maria Theresa as well!!
JC is what a true Princess should be/was. MT is the more modern type - love match of the modern day princess.

Back to topic, I am really glad they cancelled the sale: it unnerved me to think that JC's jewels were going to be worn by non-family members. I am against selling family heirlooms at all.
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  #84  
Old 09-23-2006, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avalon
I am against selling family heirlooms at all.
Sometimes you need to sell. Imagine you have one sister and she says: "Okay dear Avalon, keep the jewels, I want half of the heritage in rock-hard Euro's, thank you".

You need to pay succession taxes ánd you need to have enough cash to 'outbuy' your sister's share so that the jewels can be kept for the family. You will understand that sometimes a sale is necessary.

If two or three children of Grand Duke Jean simply prefer the cash above an 'useless' diademe, the others are also forced to co-operate in a sale. The same we have seen with the late Princess Margaret's jewels and with the late Prince Bernhard's Italian estate, his yacht and other properties (his two illegitimate daughters logically preferred cash above 'useless' diamond crowns).
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  #85  
Old 09-24-2006, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
You've just found one, Beatrixfan! I loved Josephine-Charlotte very much but I like Maria Theresa as well!!
Well there we are!

Quote:
Sometimes you need to sell.
Only if you need the money and the Grand Ducal Couple certainly don't. And you definately don't sell them to family members. You give them.
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  #86  
Old 09-25-2006, 12:45 AM
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I'm glad that they're not selling the jewels....
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  #87  
Old 09-25-2006, 03:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Only if you need the money and the Grand Ducal Couple certainly don't.
We have no idea how wealthy the (large!) grand-ducal family is ánd how that wealth is builded up: in 'dead' possessions like art, real estate, jewels or in portfolios with stocks.
The sales of properties in the House of Hannover, or after the death of Princess Margaret Countess of Snowdon, or after the death of Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands learn us that -on first sight- awesomely rich families still need to sell properties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
And you definately don't sell them to family members. You give them.
That is not true. When -for an example- Prince Jean and Prince Guillaume want to sell jewels because they prefer the hard Euro's and their siblings Archduchess Marie-Astrid, Grand Duke Henri and Princess Margaretha wants to keep the jewels in the family, they must compensate the two brothers for the financial value of their share in the heritance of their mother.

Example:
I think that most common families in the Benelux will have experienced exactly the same.
Imagine that my parents die.
I want to keep their house worth € 500.000,--.
But my sister feels nothing for the house and prefers the money.
I want to keep the house, maybe I want to live in it by myself.
I need to outbuy my sister's share to my parental house, this will cost me € 250.000,--.
Where do I get that money from?
Maybe I have to sell my own house, or sell a lot of the inventory or take a second mortgage to outbuy my sister.
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  #88  
Old 09-25-2006, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
That is not true. When -for an example- Prince Jean and Prince Guillaume want to sell jewels because they prefer the hard Euro's and their siblings Archduchess Marie-Astrid, Grand Duke Henri and Princess Margaretha wants to keep the jewels in the family, they must compensate the two brothers for the financial value of their share in the heritance of their mother.
Where is the information that Prince Jean and Gulliaume wanted to sell the jewels from??? Thks
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  #89  
Old 09-25-2006, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foiegrass
Where is the information that Prince Jean and Gulliaume wanted to sell the jewels from??? Thks
I think Henri was just providing an example (his word) of what can happen when items are left collectively to a number of siblings who then cannot agree on how to divide them.
From the little we know it could be surmised that this situation would not have occurred if the late Grand Duchess's will had specified who received what, item by item.
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  #90  
Old 09-25-2006, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
And you definately don't sell them to family members. You give them.

I didn't mean the logistics of it. I meant that IMO, it just isn't the done thing to sell jewels etc to family members. You give them. And I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe that the Grand Ducal Couple are that hard up that they need to sell them. If they were in poor street, they wouldn't have cancelled the sale.
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  #91  
Old 10-01-2006, 06:18 PM
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I guess the only ones who are not amused about the withdrawal are the folks at Sotheby´s. Wonder how they handle this and how much expense allowance has to be paid. After all they spared no effort. Sotheby´s even displayed the jewels at the Galerie Charpentier. Laurent who took some pics there and posted them on another board allowed me to post them here as well. So here they are in all their beauty…


credit (and many thanks to): Laurent Doucet de Courtuy
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  #92  
Old 10-02-2006, 01:42 PM
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The withdrawal of the jewels from Sothebys must have been an expensive story for the grand ducal house. I work in an auktionshouse here in Copenhagen and if you call back your items right before the auktion you have to pay 20% of the estimated price... It's quite expensive to arrange the previews and making the catalogue and of course pay the experts who have spend lot of time making the lot descritions...
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  #93  
Old 10-02-2006, 02:19 PM
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Wow, thanks for the answer.
20% is quite heavy. I actually thought it would range somewhere around 10% and I would have guessed Sotheby’s is insured against cancellation. 20% would mean they had to pay at least 200.000 euros.
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  #94  
Old 10-03-2006, 02:05 AM
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As I started reading this thread, I thought the selling of JC jewels was a travesty! It has been said that you don't know your family until you try to divide an estate with them (and I've found this to be true). Everyone has been putting the blame on MT and her sisters-in-law for petty behavior, etc., but how about putting the blame on JC? Why did she not specify what jewels should go to which children, what jewels should be left to "the crown", etc.? They only way to know that your property is going to be divided according to your wishes is to leave a will. And if she didn't like MT, and didn't want her or her descendants to wear the jewels, then she should have specified who got what before her death (or given the jewelry to them prior to her death). I'm glad they're not selling, and I hope the family can resolve this in a fair manner.
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  #95  
Old 12-28-2006, 10:04 PM
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Wow! Thanks johann, those are spectacular jewels. I loved the first picture, that tiara made me melt :) and the sapphire bracelet!
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  #96  
Old 01-21-2007, 02:01 PM
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This Royal Lady, seems to have had an understated style.
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  #97  
Old 12-22-2008, 06:29 AM
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i found some older photos of her
its from royal postcards
http://www.royalpostcards.be/royal%20weddings/86.jpg

http://images.google.se/url?source=i...pGCO9lwNdWx0nQ
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  #98  
Old 06-15-2009, 03:14 PM
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so here is a video about the late grand duchess
there are a few photos of her jellwery
from youtube
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  #99  
Old 11-10-2010, 02:28 PM
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Bracelet/ tiara:
Pic

Diamond tiara that she received as wedding gift:
pic
.
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  #100  
Old 10-07-2011, 12:47 PM
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in post 7 there is a tiara i have not seen MT wear, can someone tell me about it what is it called'?
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