Duchess of Cornwall Jewellery 2: Feb-Nov 2005

[tiaraprin]

These people must really be insecure in their station!!!!!

If one reads the Constitution of the United States of America, it is clearly stated that royal titles are forbidden and the outward shows of titles such as crowns, tiaras, and the like are forbidden in the presence of our President. We fought a war to gain our independence from Great Britain and one of the biggest things that annoyed our ancestors was the power of a monarch and how they were treated. Things are different today, however the protocol remains. It is to remind us from whence we came. When our representatives come to your country we respect your protocol and ours should be respected given the history of our country and how we came to be. It has nothing to do with insecurity. It has everything to do with honoring our forefather's wishes.

 

[Elspeth]

I could understand that if it applied to Americans, but not if we're talking about tiaras being forbidden on the heads of foreign royalty. The royals themselves are the ones who are symbolising the temporal power of the throne; their headgear is irrelevant.

American politicians make a big deal of not bowing or curtseying to foreign royalty when they're visiting the country where the royals live; if they're going to insist on American protocol in other people's countries, then royalty from other countries should be able to follow their own protocol when in the White House. As it is, it sounds like a case of, when you're in my country you do it my way and when I'm in your country I do it my way.

 

[Margrethe II]

I could understand that if it applied to Americans, but not if we're talking about tiaras being forbidden on the heads of foreign royalty. The royals themselves are the ones who are symbolising the temporal power of the throne; their headgear is irrelevant.

American politicians make a big deal of not bowing or curtseying to foreign royalty when they're visiting the country where the royals live; if they're going to insist on American protocol in other people's countries, then royalty from other countries should be able to follow their own protocol when in the White House. As it is, it sounds like a case of, when you're in my country you do it my way and when I'm in your country I do it my way.

I agree strongly with you Elspeth...

"MII"

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

I could understand that if it applied to Americans, but not if we're talking about tiaras being forbidden on the heads of foreign royalty. The royals themselves are the ones who are symbolising the temporal power of the throne; their headgear is irrelevant.

American politicians make a big deal of not bowing or curtseying to foreign royalty when they're visiting the country where the royals live; if they're going to insist on American protocol in other people's countries, then royalty from other countries should be able to follow their own protocol when in the White House. As it is, it sounds like a case of, when you're in my country you do it my way and when I'm in your country I do it my way.

I don't agree with you, Elspeth. Many US presidents have respected foreign royal traditions. Kennedy and Clinton, Nixon, Carter, Reagan, FDR ... all these were respectful of the curtseying and bowing and they acted accordingly. I can't speak about either of the Bushes because I've never paid attention to their foreign diplomatic habits (because to look at and listen to them is enough for me to bear!) but considering how the Bushes are buddy-buddy with Saudi royalty, I imagine they respect the royal niceties as well, if for no other reason than they wish to maintain their financial relationships.

 

[ysbel]

Many US presidents have respected foreign royal traditions. Kennedy and Clinton, Nixon, Carter, Reagan, FDR ... all these were respectful of the curtseying and bowing and they acted accordingly.

I doubt as Head of State if either Kennedy, Clinton, Nixon, Carter, Reagan, or FDR bowed to royalty but you're right, they do try to respect royal protocol within reason.

Its pretty problematic though. I talked once with someone working at the U.S. embassy during the Diana years and he said hosting a function with royals was a nightmare. It was almost impossible to get a set standard of protocol from Buckingham Palace and then when they got the royal protocol they had to match it against what the U.S. government would allow and what they wouldn't allow. A lot of back and forth took place. He was glad when it was over.

 

[ysbel]

George Washington was offered the position of King, but he rejected it as contrary to democratic principles and a republic of sovereign states.

Well branchg, some historians think that George turned down the kingship because he knew he couldn't father any children. Its kind of hard to start a royal dynasty if the head of the dynasty is sterile.

Its by no means the majority opinion but quite interesting if there is a grain of truth in it. Washington was very pro-British until late in the game.

 

[branchg]

I could understand that if it applied to Americans, but not if we're talking about tiaras being forbidden on the heads of foreign royalty. The royals themselves are the ones who are symbolising the temporal power of the throne; their headgear is irrelevant.

American politicians make a big deal of not bowing or curtseying to foreign royalty when they're visiting the country where the royals live; if they're going to insist on American protocol in other people's countries, then royalty from other countries should be able to follow their own protocol when in the White House. As it is, it sounds like a case of, when you're in my country you do it my way and when I'm in your country I do it my way.

That's the whole point. Female foreign royals attending a state function at the White House as official representatives of the State are permitted to wear their tiaras. The rule of protocol only applies if a royal was attending a non-state function where the President was present. In that case, a tiara is considered to be inappropriate since the President takes precedence as Head of State.

 

[Fireweaver]

Now that the Duchess has an appropriate tiara, I think it's time that she gets a few necklaces to go with it! Did Queen Mary have a favorite diamond necklace to go with this tiara, or do you think C&C should buy the Duchess a different necklace?

 

[Elspeth]

Tiaras are just jewels that women wear on their heads; in fact a lot of them are just necklaces on a frame anyway. They don't symbolise royalty, they symbolise wealth just like any other gem-set jewels. Tiaras are owned by rich people whether titled or not. Crowns are another matter, but you might just as well ban diamond necklaces as tiaras.

As long as prominent US citizens continue to accept honours from the Queen, even if they don't call themselves Sir This or That, this all begins to look rather htpocritical.

 

[Elspeth]

Now that the Duchess has an appropriate tiara, I think it's time that she gets a few necklaces to go with it! Did Queen Mary have a favorite diamond necklace to go with this tiara, or do you think C&C should buy the Duchess a different necklace?

If memory serves, she just wore her usual dozen or so strands of diamonds and pearls and things with it for the Durbar. I think that style of dress on Camilla might set tongues wagging in a big way!

 

[ysbel]

Are there any more photos of Queen Mary wearing the Dehli Durbar crown?

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

I doubt as Head of State if either Kennedy, Clinton, Nixon, Carter, Reagan, or FDR bowed to royalty but you're right, they do try to respect royal protocol within reason.

Its pretty problematic though. I talked once with someone working at the U.S. embassy during the Diana years and he said hosting a function with royals was a nightmare. It was almost impossible to get a set standard of protocol from Buckingham Palace and then when they got the royal protocol they had to match it against what the U.S. government would allow and what they wouldn't allow. A lot of back and forth took place. He was glad when it was over.

It is probably like that because most people who work in the White House (including the President) don't really concern themselves with anything about foreign royalty, so when these matters come up for diplomatic visits, they are given general training in the protocols, but being under-exposed and not really caring much about royalty, they think it's stupid. I'm sure the US political officials can be pretty cavalier about interacting with royals. They don't mean to offend. They just aren't aware that these things are not a joking matter or light matter for the royals themselves. Besides, someone like George Bush ("junior") prides himself on this "good old boy" image and might think it would be funny and "cute" to say something stupid like, "Hey, Queen, what's happening?"

In summary, I do think it's very likely that US political officials don't take these matters seriously enough. They don't worry about offending anyone because they know the US has the advantage in most diplomatic situations, being "big guns". I'm not saying I agree with this way of thinking, but I think it's a reality. I don't think most Americans try to be insensitive. As a whole, we Americans try to be far too correct and polite, "politically correct," if you will, and this causes us problems too. But the average "white American male" is notorious for being cavalier about courtesies.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

There is no issue with a foreign royal lady wearing a tiara on her head or royals in general wearing their sashes and orders.

Our government respects the protocol of visiting foreign royalty here in the U.S. and tries to ensure the proper respect is given.

You must realize these rules apply to anyone in the White House and in the government even when the government changes from election to election. The rules are NOT re-written from one administration to another.

With that said, I think Mrs. Bush, as First Lady, will pull out all the stops to make sure they are warmly and respectfully received in the White House for lunch and dinner.

 

[Elspeth]

Ysbel, there are photos of Queen Mary in her Durbar outfit in Leslie Fields' book about the jewels of Queen Elizabeth, if I remember right.
http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page3379.asp

There's a couple here:

http://www.answers.com/topic/coronation-of-the-british-monarch

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00routesdata/1800_1899/britishrule/jharoka/jharoka.html

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

[/b]

With that said, I think Mrs. Bush, as First Lady, will pull out all the stops to make sure they are warmly and respectfully received in the White House for lunch and dinner.

I agree. No matter what anyone's personal feelings about them are, I think it makes sense to assume that the Bushes are clever enough to be diplomatically correct. You don't get to the position of President of the US by not being correct in social protocols and having proper public courtesies anyway.

 

[ysbel]

It is probably like that because most people who work in the White House (including the President) don't really concern themselves with anything about foreign royalty, so when these matters come up for diplomatic visits, they are given general training in the protocols, but being under-exposed and not really caring much about royalty, they think it's stupid.

Ah, you may have a point CasiraghiTrio but that's not what I meant. As head of state of the United States, it would be very inappropriate for any American President to bow to the heir of any other head of state.

For the rest of the guests, I think the others bowed or curtseyed to Elizabeth II when she visited the White House in 1976 for the Bicentennial celebrations. She also wore a tiara at that event. That was a big celebration and quite successful.

Pics from the Gerald R. Ford Library site http://www.ford.utexas.edu/

http://www.ford.utexas.edu/avproj/b0562-33.jpg

http://www.ford.utexas.edu/avproj/b0570-13.jpg

 

[ysbel]

Ysbel, there are photos of Queen Mary in her Durbar outfit in Leslie Fields' book about the jewels of Queen Elizabeth, if I remember right.


There's a couple here:

http://www.answers.com/topic/coronation-of-the-british-monarch

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00routesdata/1800_1899/britishrule/jharoka/jharoka.html

Thanks Elspeth. I'll have to check out Leslie Fields book. I want to get a sense of what other jewellery she wore with the crown.

 

[wymanda]

Thanks Elspeth. I'll have to check out Leslie Fields book. I want to get a sense of what other jewellery she wore with the crown.

Perhaps someone could ask, through Royal Insight, for a list of what else QM wore at the Delhi Durbar. They still have her "Dress Book" in which she recorded what she wore each day complete with a list of the jewels she wore.

 

[Warren]

Nothing to do with the Duchess or Cornwall, or Queen Mary for that matter, but here is another pic I found of Queen Elizabeth and President Gerald Ford, 1976:
Courtesy Gettyimages

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=78529

 

[Warren]

We have two threads about the same topic running concurrently.

This one: Camilla and the Royal Jewels
and
Duchess of Cornwall jewellery part 2

at: http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7683

I will close this thread.

 

[tiaraprin]

I don't agree with you, Elspeth. Many US presidents have respected foreign royal traditions. Kennedy and Clinton, Nixon, Carter, Reagan, FDR ... all these were respectful of the curtseying and bowing and they acted accordingly. I can't speak about either of the Bushes because I've never paid attention to their foreign diplomatic habits (because to look at and listen to them is enough for me to bear!) but considering how the Bushes are buddy-buddy with Saudi royalty, I imagine they respect the royal niceties as well, if for no other reason than they wish to maintain their financial relationships.

After the death of President John F. Kennedy, Jackie received the Duke of Edinburgh. Upon his exit, Jackie curtsied to him. She was no longer the wife of the head of state and she followed protocol. Even in grief, this woman had tremendous class.

 

[Saragli]

I also remember watching Caroline and John Jr. curtsing and bowing to the Duke of Edinburough I think when they were really young.

 

[ysbel]

Nothing to do with the Duchess or Cornwall, or Queen Mary for that matter, but here is another pic I found of Queen Elizabeth and President Gerald Ford, 1976:
Courtesy Gettyimages

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=78529

Thanks Warren. The mustard yellow dress I could do without but it was the style of the 70s.

That three strand diamond necklace is gorgeous though!

 

[ysbel]

After the death of President John F. Kennedy, Jackie received the Duke of Edinburgh. Upon his exit, Jackie curtsied to him. She was no longer the wife of the head of state and she followed protocol. Even in grief, this woman had tremendous class.

That's true tiaraprin and it was entirely appropriate. I haven't seen any pics of the Kennedys visiting Buckingham Palace although I know they did. I can't imagine them touring the rest of Europe without visiting the Queen.

Maybe I'll start a new thread in the British forum on Royal-Presidential visits. It should be fun.

Here's the thread if any of you would like to participate. I think it would be fun to see pics from past Presidential visits: http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7732

 

[tiaraprin]

That's true tiaraprin and it was entirely appropriate. I haven't seen any pics of the Kennedys visiting Buckingham Palace although I know they did. I can't imagine them touring the rest of Europe without visiting the Queen.

Maybe I'll start a new thread in the British forum on Royal-Presidential visits. It should be fun.

Here's the thread if any of you would like to participate. I think it would be fun to see pics from past Presidential visits: http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7732

The Kennedys came to Buckingham Palace in 1961 for one night for a banquet. There was trouble with the guest list because Jackie's sister, Lee Radziwill was a remarried divorcee. Jackie and the President were there as Godparents to the Radziwills newborn. There was much wrangling about this.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

Nothing to do with the Duchess or Cornwall, or Queen Mary for that matter, but here is another pic I found of Queen Elizabeth and President Gerald Ford, 1976:
Courtesy Gettyimages

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=78529

Hi Warren,

Is that the tiara she wore at her own wedding? It looks like it.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

The Kennedys came to Buckingham Palace in 1961 for one night for a banquet. There was trouble with the guest list because Jackie's sister, Lee Radziwill was a remarried divorcee. Jackie and the President were there as Godparents to the Radziwills newborn. There was much wrangling about this.

In association to the Kennedys at Buckingham Palace:

The Queen apparently did not Stash Radziwill, that is why she did not want them there, also for the fact he insisted being styled Prince Radziwill, which from what I read irritated her.

She adored the Ambassador Bruce, his wife Evangeline is the one who said, "It had nothing to do with divorce, my husband was divorced, and the Queen loved him. She simply did not like Stash Radziwill. And their insistence upon being called Prince and Princess irritated her."

President Kennedy wanted Marina, the Duchess of Kent there, and the Queen said no to that. Apparently the president and the Duchess became friends while he studied in England while his father was Ambassador.

 

[Warren]

Hi Warren,
Is that the tiara she wore at her own wedding? It looks like it.

Close, but no cigar Lady Marmalade.

The Queen is wearing Queen Alexandra's Russian Kokoshnik Tiara, the King George VI Festoon Necklace, and what look like the Greville Chandelier Earrings.

The tiara was presented to Queen Alexandra on the occasion of her silver wedding anniversary in 1888 by Lady Salisbury on behalf of 365 Peeresses of the United Kingdom.

In 1947 the King wanted to make some jewellery from 239 loose diamond collets (think about that for a moment), and in 1950 105 of them were set in a three-row festoon necklace with triangle motifs.

The Cartier chandelier earrings show examples of every known modern cut of diamond. They were a wedding gift to Princess Elizabeth in 1947 from her parents. Queen Elizabeth (the late Queen Mother) had inherited them from the Hon Mrs Ronnie Greville in 1942.

as aside... the Hon Mrs Greville left Queen Elizabeth about a million pounds worth of jewellery in 1942. Translate to 2005 values...

The tiara Princess Elizabeth wore to her wedding was the King George III Fringe Tiara. It was made in 1830 as a necklace from stones that had belonged to George III. Queen Victoria first wore it as a tiara in 1839. Queen Mary gave the tiara to Queen Elizabeth who loaned it to Princess Elizabeth as "something borrowed" for her wedding. The Queen Mother loaned it to Princess Anne for her wedding in 1973. As Queen Victoria left this piece as "Crown" property it would now be back in the Buckingham Palace vaults.

source: "The Jewels of Queen Elizabeth II - Her Personal Collection" by Leslie Field 1992

 

[Elspeth]

You know, I've seen this stuff about those earrings containing diamonds of every cut known to humankind, but I cannot for the life of me see any marquise diamonds in those earrings.

 

[Panther2000]

If one reads the Constitution of the United States of America, it is clearly stated that royal titles are forbidden and the outward shows of titles such as crowns, tiaras, and the like are forbidden in the presence of our President. We fought a war to gain our independence from Great Britain and one of the biggest things that annoyed our ancestors was the power of a monarch and how they were treated. Things are different today, however the protocol remains. It is to remind us from whence we came. When our representatives come to your country we respect your protocol and ours should be respected given the history of our country and how we came to be. It has nothing to do with insecurity. It has everything to do with honoring our forefather's wishes.

Thanks for setting the record straight. Talk about being insecure.

I just wonder what they ( Us Americans) when the olympics role around. We are not allowed by law to lower our flag to anyone. So knowing that the Queen & family will be in attendence during the Opening cermonies & the Prarade of Nations. I can see the boards know with people bashing us Americans. We ran into the same problem in 1998 in Nagano, Japan.