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  #41  
Old 02-02-2010, 02:01 PM
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I think Marie Pavlova once considered Albert of Belgium right after Max left Helena as a suitable candidate for her but he fell in love and got engaged to Elisabeth of Bavaria before Marie could catch him on her net

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I wish there was a good book on Helen.... she's interesting to me.
Isn't there an autobiography of Prince Nicholas? I need to add that to my list of "reading" material
there is a autobiography of prince Nicholas. I have not read it but I ve heard that it's quite focused on politics, so I don't know if it contains many information about his family.
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  #42  
Old 02-02-2010, 03:03 PM
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Perhaps Maria Pavlova's snobbery stemmed from an inferiority complex about her own lineage? It's been said that a lot prejudices come from a projection of oneself. She was definitely a social climber, even in royal circles, having dumped her original fiance when Vladamir proposed. Of course Maria Pavlova was always in competition with her sister-in-law, the Empress who held the top female position at court. I wouldn't be surprised Helen had trouble finding a husband because the views inherited from her mother. Royals would be natural snobs, but seemed like mother and daughter took it to the next level that even other royals got annoyed.

Prince Michael of Greece describes in his book Jewels of the Tsars "The crimson velvet and ermine mantle [that Helen and many grand duchesses wore for their wedding] was so heavy that more than one bride, having knelt during the ceremony, found herself pinned to the ground and unable to stagger up again."
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  #43  
Old 02-02-2010, 04:09 PM
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I really think that Helen didn't get more proposals because the possible suitors were aware that Marie would reject the match.Otherwise , Helen was a suitable pride. She had money, beauty, youth, good lineage and was the cousin of a Tsar and a Queen which means good royal connections. From what I' ve learned about Marie Pavlova I tend to believe that she deeply regretted the fact Orthodoxy didn't allow 1st cousins to marry because only the Tsar would have been really worthy of her daughter. .

By the way,does anyone know if Helen adjusted well into the Greek court which was so must simpler that the russian one?
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  #44  
Old 02-02-2010, 04:39 PM
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I think the Marie Feodorovna would have blocked even the best laid plans of Marie Pavlovna for that match - if it had been allowed by the Church. The two women were not on the best of terms... and I am sure Marie Pavlovna's German birth didn't help much there.

And wonder why the Romanovs didn't do like the Hapsburgs and the Bourbons and just marriy 1st cousins anyway.... for doesn't the Catholic church also frown highly upon marriage to someone of such a near relation??? And we know the Hapsburgs and Bourbons took close family marriage to the extreme!
But that's a great point, Snowflower... I never thought that Marie Pavlovna may have pushed for a match with Nicholas.
Purely speculative... but if Hereditary Grand Duke Alfred of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha had lived... reckon she would have been satisfied with him as a match for Helen? For is she married into another ruling house, she would have to change her religion to comply with the rules of that house, correct?
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  #45  
Old 02-02-2010, 05:26 PM
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Well the Orthodox Church really frown upon first cousin marriage . In the whole history of Byzantium not even one emperor got married to a first cousin and I haven't heard of any orthodox ruler who was ever married to a first cousin. I tend to believe it is also a cultural thing. I can't talk about Russia but here in Greece first cousin marriage is illegal and if a mother ever heard about her daughter wanting to marry a frst cousin she would probably faint or start reacting like this . I remember when I first learned that in UK first cousins could get married I thought " God! there are countries where this is even legal?" ( I was 9 at the time)

If prince Alfred was alive I think MP would have definately considered him for Helen. I don't think she would mind about religion she was not exactly admiring Orthodoxy she stayed Lutheran throughout most of her life. Not to mention that a change of religion would made a dispensation unenessary ( Alfred was also Helen's first cousin and thus she was prohibited to marry him too). But we must not forget that Helen wasn 't a spineless obedient creature to do everyhting her mother wanted. She might have wanted to stay Orthodox.
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  #46  
Old 02-02-2010, 06:06 PM
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Cousin's marrying is nothing for us here in the Southern US - four of my great-grandparents were 1st cousins. So I don't see have any qualms about cousin marriages.. hahaha.

I'm pretty sure Marie Pav would have known how to push Helen towards Alfred... regardless of her own feeling & religious convictions.... being like Marie, she may want to, like you said, change her religion. And if she changed her religion, she'd not be going against the Orthodox Church, correct?? I just love to play "what if" sometimes....
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  #47  
Old 02-02-2010, 06:32 PM
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I feel in a way she was better off married to a minor prince. She was too " imperious" in behaviour and opinion to be the Consort of a reigning duke or a king for the 20th century and this might have caused her a few sorrows. not to mention the beautiful girls that were the result
.
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  #48  
Old 02-02-2010, 06:55 PM
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...the Tsar decided to make them a wedding gift. The "wedding gift" was a palace in Athens...nowadays it's the Italian Embassy.
-> The Palace in Athens, later a branch of the Grande Bretagne Hotel, and now the Italian Embassy.
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  #49  
Old 02-02-2010, 09:15 PM
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Gorgeous!! Thank you so much for posting for us, Warren.
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  #50  
Old 02-02-2010, 09:55 PM
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Well the Orthodox Church really frown upon first cousin marriage . In the whole history of Byzantium not even one emperor got married to a first cousin and I haven't heard of any orthodox ruler who was ever married to a first cousin. I tend to believe it is also a cultural thing. I can't talk about Russia but here in Greece first cousin marriage is illegal and if a mother ever heard about her daughter wanting to marry a frst cousin she would probably faint or start reacting like this .
Russian Orthodox church forbids marriages between first cousins as well.
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  #51  
Old 02-04-2010, 09:07 AM
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I always believed that OEM were quite influenced from their mother in the way they viewed royalty. I mean although they loved their husbands, they all made very important matches. At the time,I don't thing it was an everyday thing to see the three not so rich daughters of a minor prince married off so well - the first to a prince who was also a regent, the second to a mediatized and immensely rich count and the third to a British Royal Duke.
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  #52  
Old 02-04-2010, 09:58 AM
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Financial status or not.. you have to take into account these girls had an almost perfect royal lineage..... there were Kings of Britain, Kings of Prussia, Czars of Russia, Kings of Denmark, a King of Greece.... not to mention the ruling Dukes and Grand Dukes, et al.
Not to mention the fact that they were all stunning beauties.... wealthy father or not, most men - royal or common, wouldn't pass up the chance for a beautiful wife. (:
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  #53  
Old 02-04-2010, 10:04 AM
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You are right . the were all pretty impressive women.....

By the way does anyone has seen a photo of Marina wearing Queen Olga's rubies? ( Those that are now owned by Queen Anne Marie) . She borrowed them form her sister Olga for George VI's coronation..
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  #54  
Old 02-04-2010, 10:25 AM
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those rubies became quite the matter in the family for a while. Queen Olga in her will left them either to Nicholas and Helena (and they passed them to Olga) or to Olga directly. Later when King Paul was married , he bought them back for Frederika . I don't know why, but after this , the three sisters would sometimes accuse their cousin of "stealing" the parure. As if from the whole Greek family , these particular princesses were the ones sort on jewellery f.......

I couldn't find Marina's photo ( although it was a famous photo by Ceacil Beaton) but I found Olga' s

From the Royal Jewel of the World Message Board

courtesy of RJWMB
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  #55  
Old 02-04-2010, 12:16 PM
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What a gorgeous picture and parure!!! That's a big mess... of all the daughters of the Greek royal family one would think not be short on jewels were the granddaughters of Marie Pavlovna!
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  #56  
Old 02-04-2010, 12:16 PM
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The brooch Marina is wearing was a wedding gift fron Tsar Nicholas to Elena Vladimirovna. She gave it to Marina upon her marriage

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Originally Posted by EmpressRouge View Post

Prince Michael of Greece describes in his book Jewels of the Tsars "The crimson velvet and ermine mantle [that Helen and many grand duchesses wore for their wedding] was so heavy that more than one bride, having knelt during the ceremony, found herself pinned to the ground and unable to stagger up again."
I found the picture (in the Royal Marriages Thread) and was stunned by the mantle . Not to mention the brooch, the necklase, the earrings, the tiara and the coronet. I knew that the traditional Romamov bridal attire was a little "regal" but how is a poor young bride supposed to wear all this, corseted and stand in a 45 minutes wedding service in a church full of lighted candles and with all the aromas from burning incense ?Not to mention that I ve learned that the Grand Duchesses used to wear wedding gowns embroidered with REAL silver tissue.

Besides,if a Grand Duchess was supposed to wear that on her wedding day, what exactly she was supposed to wear at a Tsar's coronation?

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ten3/helen.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/ort7gm.jpg
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  #57  
Old 02-04-2010, 01:25 PM
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Those pictures are wonderful!!! Keep 'em coming!!
I guess the Grand Duchesses need not to worry about a cardio workout.... between weddings and state occasions and a coronation - they got a good workout!!
Can you image women today doing all that?? NONE that I know would even consider such....

You are a treasure-trove of wonderful pictures!
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  #58  
Old 02-04-2010, 01:45 PM
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Some photos (gettyimages and Flickr)

1)a nice group photo of Nicholas , Andrew , Elena , Alice, OEM infront of their mother and Sophia and Margarita in front of Alice . I must say , Alice's daughters are very blonde! How comes that?Their parents seemed to be darker..

2)A nice photo of Elisabeth in her youth. Princess Elizabeth, who was the sweetest and least-known of the three lovely sisters, was a fearless horsewoman and a talented painter, though she cared more for horses than for art. She was close to both of her more-famous sisters.

When Olga got married to Paul of Υugoslavia in 1921, Elena felt as if it was time to find something for Elisabeth. She thought it would be easy because even though she wasn't as glamorous as her sisters,she had a more " angelic" and sweet look than Olga and Marina and was very kind and gentle. However no one seemed to be interested .Elena tried really hard ( I think she tried to marry her to Prince Nicholas of Roumania but the thing didn't got along). She was trying to fing he a husband for an decade (talk about being determined!).Well when a decade passed and Elisabeth reached 30, Elena lost her patience and she took her and Marina to a big trip around Europe and she actually introduced her to every prince available, in order to find a "suitable" husband for her daughter.Thanks God the same year Elizabeth met her future husband and got married . Elena could actually breathe again....

Ps. I don't know why, but this story sound slightly familiar.....

I think the photo i just posted is mislabeled although it said Princess Elisabeth of Greece. I ll try to check it

3)Elena wearing her fringe tiara. She later gave it to Elisabeth, who wore it on her wedding day. Helena countess of Toerring - Jettenbach (Elena 's granddaughter) and Archduchess Sophie of Hampsbourg ( Elena's great granddaughter) also wore it to their wedding.

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I think the photo i just posted is mislabeled although it said Princess Elisabeth of Greece. I ll try to check it
I ve checked it and I believe it is an elisabeth. But she looks more like archduchess Elisabeth (Rudolph's daughter).......

4)this one is definitately Elisabeth.But was exactly is she wearing on her head?
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  #59  
Old 02-04-2010, 05:57 PM
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A few more pictures of Elena (from Flickr and Webshots)

A De Lazlo painting
A card from cigarettes
As a young Grand Duchess
With princess Victoria Melita of Edinburgh
I suppose this is a souvenir box from Nicholas and Elena's marriage
two portaits - one in her mid 40's I think and the other right after her marriage
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  #60  
Old 02-04-2010, 06:42 PM
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Thanks again!!
Elena had a rather enchanting, dark beauty about her... striking!!
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