King Constantine and Queen Anne-Marie current events 3: November 2006 -

[iannis]

TM King Constantine and Queen Anne Marie visited the Athens cathedral an hour ago to pay tribute to the late Archbishop of Athens and all Greece Christodoulos I, whose corpse has been exposed at the Metropolitan Cathedral until his burial coming Thursday.
Among others HM King Constantine stated that the late Archbishop was a man who was aware of the country's history, was wise and had a dream about the future. HM added that he was impressed by how close Christodoulos was to the people.

* The Athens Metropolitan Cathedral is the church where all the GRF religious events (weddings and funerals, including the wedding of Constantine and Anne Marie) took place, except enthronements, as the Kings of the Hellenes acceded to the throne only by taking vows to the constitution in the Parliament.

[iannis]

The King's online statement on the passing away of the Archbishop can be found at the above link taken from the official GRF website:

The Greek Royal Family - News & Media

May I just say how I admired the late Archbishop myself on being such a passionate and decent man and being so brave about his illness (he died of cancer giving a great lesson on being open about one's illness and supporting organ donation; he made the Holy Synod Bishops all become organ donors). He was a trully inspired leader way ahead his time. May God rest his soul.

[dbarn67]

Originally Posted by BELTRANEJA

the Designer Of The Wedding Dress Of The Queen Ann Marie, Was Valentino?

No Valentino did not design AM's wedding dress. According to the newsletters here on royal forums Princess dress was designed by a Danish designer. Queen Ann Marie must have been an admirer of Valentino's work.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ides-5934.html

[vally]

Well, i saw the statement of King Konstantine too just a few minutes ago and i am glad that he did attend the Metropolitan Cathedral.
on the other hand, I don't agree with iannis 100% on Christodoulos (after all, it's a common secret the lack of decency as far as the majority of priests in Greece is concerned), but God rest his soul. i have to admit that he gave hope to people and made young people come closer to church this past 10 years.

[sgl]

I am very sorry for the loss of Christodoulos. He obviously meant a lot to the people of the Greek Orthodox faith.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by sgl

I am very sorry for the loss of Christodoulos. He obviously meant a lot to the people of the Greek Orthodox faith.

Not to all. To many of the less educated, the religious fanatics and some youngsters, he meant a great deal. He will probably be remembered as the most divisive Greek Church leader with his inflammatory, anti-European and anti-American, reactionary, nationalistic demeanor who spent more time on politics than on tending to the sick, the widows, the orphans, the imprisoned and the disadvantaged.
His hypocrisy and especially his gay-bashing polemic, shall always be remembered, particularly after it was widely disclosed by his physicians to the Press that he had developed hepatoma (liver cancer) on a substrate of cirrhosis secondary to Hepatitis B that he had contracted many decades back, obviously by practising a non-celibate lifestyle and one he was condemning others for.

[iannis]

Late Christodoulos was the leader of the Greek church, not a political party leader! What did you expect him to do? He was innovative enough to do the things he did. He took the Greek church 50 years ahead, which brings it to round 1900 now, therefore we should be grateful or at least not disrespectful for a deceased mand who's being buried today.

Anyway, this is not the place to discuss such a matter, but try to show some respect! I'm sure you can

[iannis]

TM King Constantine and Queen Anne-Marie are attending the funeral of Archbishop Christodoulos at the Athens Cathedral at the moment.
I'm surprised to see them seated on the official chairs around the coffin, next to religious leaders (at the last ones as a matter of fact) and opposite the President of the Republic, PM and party leaders. It looks like in Greece we've started doing some steps further on showing some respect to the King, who used to be the legitimate head of state of the country.

Or it may just be the people inside church who do it.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by iannis

Late Christodoulos was the leader of the Greek church, not a political party leader! What did you expect him to do? He was innovative enough to do the things he did. He took the Greek church 50 years ahead, which brings it to round 1900 now, therefore we should be grateful or at least not disrespectful for a deceased mand who's being buried today.

Anyway, this is not the place to discuss such a matter, but try to show some respect! I'm sure you can

Exactly. Brecause he was not a political leader, he shouldn't be indulging in politics. Someone else, in a different position, did exactly the same thing and lost his throne.

I am sorry but you started it! Respect does not mean letting gross inaccuracies appear on paper or electronic print.

[iannis]

After the memorial service finished the Bishop of Salonica Anthimos gave a speach dedicated to the late Archbishop. Starting it he addressed in order the President of the Republic, the Ecumenical Patriarch, Heads of other Orthodox Churches who were present, the Prime Minister, the ex King (addresing him as "former King of the Hellenes" [τέως βασιλεύ των Ελλήνων]) and then the ex Presidents of the Republic who were present, and then the leaders of the opposition.

IMO this was more than appropriate, since Constantine has been the legitimate head of the state whatsoever and addressing him after the current Prime Minister was the accurate position. However a vast majority of Greek bloggers have blasted an enormous attack of rage and hatred, being the less ironic, towards Bishop Anthimos, which above all, in my opinion, is not fair to King Constantine.

[BeatrixFan]

Majestys always come before Presidents though. International etiquette always puts former Kings before Presidents if they're at the same events.

[ellinotati]

Anne-Marie is the patron of a charity whose purpose is to raise money for research into ovarian cancer.The name of the charity is,The Eve Appeal.Information on:www.eveappeal.or.uk

Apologies,the correct address is The Eve Appeal - Gynaecology Cancer Research Fund

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

Majestys always come before Presidents though. International etiquette always puts former Kings before Presidents if they're at the same events.

Not quite.

First of all, the official uniform international protocol treats all sitting Heads of State the same, whether they are monarchs or presidents and the order may be alphabetical or otherwise structured. However, heads of defunct monarchies are generally treated as private citizens.

In countries that are Republics (like the USA), State Protocol does not distinguish between reigning monarchs and sitting presidents, it treats them all as Heads of State. During State events, Republics do not invite former monarchs, first and foremost, because they do not represent legally anyone and second, out of respect to the sovereign countries of origin of these personages. Now, if, say, a former monarch were a close friend of a deceased president who is about to receive a State Funeral, then this former monarch will be high on the list of personal guests of the family of the deceased but not of the hosting country. That means that he/she will be sitting/standing among the family members and friends of the deceased but not among the Heads of State and foreign dignitaries and he/she will not receive honors as a foreign dignitary. To give you a practical exampe: If, say, former king Constantine had attended the State Funeral of President Ford, State Protocol would have treated him as every other private man, American or foreign, attending strictly as a guest of the Ford family.

However, within monarchies, like Great Britain, the observed etiquette depends on the characterization of the event - State, Royal, Private etc. For example, the funeral of Winston Churchill was a State Funeral. In such cases, the Foreign Office gets involved and determines the order of precedence. In state events, sitting monarchs and presidents are treated as equals, as Heads of State. A similar protocol was followed during the Coronation of Queen Elizabeth, a state event. In contrast, in Royal Funerals such as those of Diana and the Queen Mother, and in Royal Weddings such as that of Charles and Diana, it is the Palace's choice to determine precedence - usually royals (whether reigning or former) precede presidents and prime-ministers of foreign countries, should they attend (usually they are not invited). When, Mesdames Hillary Clinton and Laura Bush attended the funerals of Diana and the Queen Mother, respectively, and Mme Nancy Reagan attended the wedding of Prince Charles, they sat way behind, simply because they were attending as private persons, as friends of the Royal Family. If, say, that wedding and these funerals were state events and Mesdames Reagan, Clinton and Bush had attended in their official capacities as First Ladies representing the President and the People of the USA, then they would have sat in the first row of the space allocated for foreign dignitaries, along with sitting monarchs and ahead of former monarchs.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by iannis

After the memorial service finished the Bishop of Salonica Anthimos gave a speach dedicated to the late Archbishop. Starting it he addressed in order the President of the Republic, the Ecumenical Patriarch, Heads of other Orthodox Churches who were present, the Prime Minister, the ex King (addresing him as "former King of the Hellenes" [τέως βασιλεύ των Ελλήνων]) and then the ex Presidents of the Republic who were present, and then the leaders of the opposition.

IMO this was more than appropriate, since Constantine has been the legitimate head of the state whatsoever and addressing him after the current Prime Minister was the accurate position. However a vast majority of Greek bloggers have blasted an enormous attack of rage and hatred, being the less ironic, towards Bishop Anthimos, which above all, in my opinion, is not fair to King Constantine.

Your, my or anyone's opinion on such matters does not count/matter. The funeral of the Archbishop, who had himself drawn the details, was a State affair and received honors for a sitting President. If the late Archbishop had opted for a private funeral, then Metropolitan Anthimos and other friends/relatives of the deceased could have acted as they pleased, from the ceremonial standpoint.
As a state function, however, the event had to comply with State Protocol, and the order of precedence was drawn in accordance to the Constitution. According to the Hellenic Constitution, the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th citizens of Hellas are hierarchically, the President, the Prime Minister, the President of Parliament and the Leader of the Main Opposition, respectively. What the Metropolitan of Salonica did, was a bravado act and a violation of the Constitution, indicative of the Church's determination to indulge constantly in matters political and, worse, to violate frequently the tenets of the Constitution.

People are free to like/dislike, respect/disrespect former heads of state, to be royalists/republicans in spirit, but they may not violate the Constitution. Insofar as the Hellenic Constitution is concerned, former king Constantine is a Danish private man, not a Hellene due to the fact that he refused to be at par with the citizens of the Republic by not adopting a surname, thus defying the "new" Polity. Had he accepted, as practised internationally, even the hellenized transliteration of his official surname, that is, from de Grecia to the meaningless Ντε Γκρέτσια or Δε Γρέτσια or Δεγρέτσιας, instead of the translation to the meaningful της Ελλάδας [= of Greece], he would now be a Greek citizen and, theoretically, there would be no obstacle to his receiving honors of former head of state, in chronological precedence.

Metropolitan Anthimos violated the Constitution. The Church of Greece continues to be a reactionary element of Greek society, a constant obstacle to, and decelerator of, progress. The reaction among Athenian newspapers was immense. It is now felt that the time has come for the separation of State and Church. I am not sure how many of the readers of TRF are aware that Greece is, in a way, a theocratic state, that is, it has a formal religion, Orthodox Christianity (even though the Constitution treats all religions and dogmata as equal) and the Clergy is salaried under the Civil Service, while the Church is immensely wealthy.

BTW, to those interested among you, former king Constantine did not follow the procession to the Cemetery of Athens (located dowtown, some 2 miles or less from the Athens Cathedral). According to all news agencies, immediately after the church ceremony, he returned to the Grande Bretagne Hotel and waved to the masses from the first-floor balcony, when the procession walked past the hotel. This was deemed, State Protocol and social etiquette-wise, inappropriate and was criticized by the media.

[Marie-Louise]

That was perhaps not political correct. But it's political correct, that the "former King" hasn't a greek Passport?

[iannis]

Originally Posted by Philippe Egalite'

Your, my or anyone's opinion on such matters does not count/matter.

Honey, it's MY post, so MY opinion does count/ matter!
Fora are fields where it is a common practice for people to express their opinions you know

[kalnel]

Originally Posted by Philippe Egalite'

First of all, the official uniform international protocol...

Philippe,

I just wanted to set straight a couple of points in your post:

-- Each U.S. president determines the precedence for both Americans and foreign guests at official events, and the order does vary from time to time. The U.S. does not follow any "official international" protocol. Here's a list of the current (January 2008) precedence that the White House uses: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_order_of_precedence

-- The United States generally ranks the precedence of sitting foreign leaders and ambassadors (and their delegations) based on when they took office. In some cases, it will rank official delegations based on when a country first established diplomatic ties with the United States (which makes France and the Netherlands happy and annoys Britain and Canada).

-- Foreign leaders, past or present, do not attend U.S. "state funerals," unless for a sitting president, such as Kennedy's and Roosevelt's were. These events, which take place in the Capitol Rotunda, involve current and past U.S. officials, family, and very close friends only.

-- The events recently that have looked like state funerals in the National Cathedral (for Reagan and Ford) are actually official, private memorial services, and, as such, the family of the deceased can seat anyone anywhere they chose and use whatever protocol they like. The families work with the Military District of Washington to carry out their plans and get advice on protocol. Here's a link to some of the details regarding Reagan's funeral: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/10/opinion/diplomatic/main622294.shtml.

-- If Constantine were attending a U.S. state event as part of an official Greek delegation, he would take whatever rank and precedence the Greek embassy said he should have. The United States does not invite individuals to represent their countries at state events; it invites countries to send representatives.

-- If Constantine were attending an official U.S. state event and he wasn't part of an official delegation, he would be accorded the same precedence any other former head of state who is not part of an official delegation. Because the United States ranks heads of state ahead of heads of government (even if they're no longer in office), he would rank ahead of, say, Tony Blair, who was a head of government. But, he would rank behind former King Michael of Romania, since Michael took office before Constantine did.

-- Titles don't affect precedence, unless they are being used in an active, official capacity. As a courtesy, if Constantine and Pavlos came to the White House, everyone would call them "Your Majesty" and "Your Royal Highness," if that's what they requested, but their only status would be as a former head of state and his son.

-- All of this would go out the window if the United States had a political or diplomatic reason to honor or disrepect Constantine at any given moment.

-- When Nancy Reagan attended Charles and Diana's wedding, which WAS a state event, she attended as the personal representative of the President and head of the U.S. delegation, and she sat in the sixth row, among all other heads of government. Here's a report from the Washington Post describing the status: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/diana/background/wedding1.htm.

-- Diana's funeral was a diplomatic problem for the United States. The British stressed that it was NOT a state event, so at first they invited only Hillary Clinton to attend as a "personal friend" of Diana's. But the American public was demanding that the U.S. officially honor Diana, so the Clinton administration renegotiated with the Brits and made Hillary's trip "official" with her as head of a delegation, that included the ambassador. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/diana/stories/firstlady0904.htm She sat near Bernadette Chirac and Suzanne Mubarak, who also represented their husbands.

-- The Queen Mother's funeral WAS a state event, and Laura Bush attended in an official capacity as head of the U.S. delegation. Here's the announcement from the White House confirming it: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/04/20020404-12.html.

Hope this helps clear a few points up,
kal