King Talal

[rollin_keef]

He is the most under written about King of Jordan.

King Talal, can people plz tell me stuff about him, his views, his life, why he and King Abdullah the first didnt get along well, why him and his brother Nagef fought in a brief power struggle.....

[Humera]

Is the father of the late King Hussein?
I remember hearing he was schizophrenic.

[shelley]

Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~

Is the father of the late King Hussein?
I remember hearing he was schizophrenic.

I've done quite a bit of research on King Talal and think he is one of the saddest and most underrated membersof the JRF. By all accounts ( mainly the British records but I have also spoken to Jordanians who knew or knew of him ) he was an intelligent, kindly man. He was responsible for two of the most important decisions in Jordan's poltical life. He was the moving force that gave Jordan a written constution ( an in imperfect document to be sure but better than none ) and behind compulsory education for boys and girls. He played a good game of chess, and rode very well. He enjoyed reading, music and poetry, and although much of his aggression when ill was targeted towards his wife, when well they enjoyed a good, normal relationship. King Abdullah did not like him as he thought he was too progressive ( ie the consititution and girls' education, I guess). He chose to marry Queen Zein rather than the woman his father had chosen of him, and did not care that she didn't wear Hijab or traditional dress. King Talal wanted to go to university in England and his father did not approve thinking he would get even more fancy ideas. So although with the British High Commissioner's help and advice he went to England and studied to the necessary standards and got into Cambridge, his father ordered him away after a semester and insisted he go to Sandhurst. (David Niven the actor was a friend of his and writes well about him in his autobiography). Prince Naif is decribed in the British records as lightweight, a superficial, badly educated man . King Abdullah prefered him as he gave in to his father and did not present any challenges. King Abdullah thought Prince Talal and Princess Zein's influence to be so bad that he took their infant son Hussein from them and brought him up his own. Talal and Zein lost two children. The first because there was no money for them to buy medicine for their infant daughter, nor heat the house, and she died at six months. The second because King Abdullah did not approve of women giving birth in hospital and the baby had some complications that a home delivery could not deal with and died. It is no wonder that King Talal ended his days in a sanatorium. Obviously he was a despressive but this sort of treatment at the hands of his father could not have helped. The British records make sad but interesting reading. :(

[sommone]

Originally Posted by shelley

I've done quite a bit of research on King Talal and think he is one of the saddest and most underrated membersof the JRF. By all accounts ( mainly the British records but I have also spoken to Jordanians who knew or knew of him ) he was an intelligent, kindly man. He was responsible for two of the most important decisions in Jordan's poltical life. He was the moving force that gave Jordan a written constution ( an in imperfect document to be sure but better than none ) and behind compulsory education for boys and girls. He played a good game of chess, and rode very well. He enjoyed reading, music and poetry, and although much of his aggression when ill was targeted towards his wife, when well they enjoyed a good, normal relationship. King Abdullah did not like him as he thought he was too progressive ( ie the consititution and girls' education, I guess). He chose to marry Queen Zein rather than the woman his father had chosen of him, and did not care that she didn't wear Hijab or traditional dress. King Talal wanted to go to university in England and his father did not approve thinking he would get even more fancy ideas. So although with the British High Commissioner's help and advice he went to England and studied to the necessary standards and got into Cambridge, his father ordered him away after a semester and insisted he go to Sandhurst. (David Niven the actor was a friend of his and writes well about him in his autobiography). Prince Naif is decribed in the British records as lightweight, a superficial, badly educated man . King Abdullah prefered him as he gave in to his father and did not present any challenges. King Abdullah thought Prince Talal and Princess Zein's influence to be so bad that he took their infant son Hussein from them and brought him up his own. Talal and Zein lost two children. The first because there was no money for them to buy medicine for their infant daughter, nor heat the house, and she died at six months. The second because King Abdullah did not approve of women giving birth in hospital and the baby had some complications that a home delivery could not deal with and died. It is no wonder that King Talal ended his days in a sanatorium. Obviously he was a despressive but this sort of treatment at the hands of his father could not have helped. The British records make sad but interesting reading. :(

Thanks for sharing this shelley...I had often wondered why there wasn't much written on King Talal other then the schizophrenia. I'm sorry, but your account of King Abdullah makes him sound like a heartless man. I can't believe that they didn't have any money for medicine...or heat? Wow...I thought as a prince, he would have had some money...Did it talk about KH relationship with his father? Yes, I guess one can understand why the poor man abdicated. I wonder though...was he sick before getting married to his wife, or after he married her? That is really sad though.

[shelley]

Originally Posted by sommone

Thanks for sharing this shelley...I had often wondered why there wasn't much written on King Talal other then the schizophrenia. I'm sorry, but your account of King Abdullah makes him sound like a heartless man. I can't believe that they didn't have any money for medicine...or heat? Wow...I thought as a prince, he would have had some money...Did it talk about KH relationship with his father? Yes, I guess one can understand why the poor man abdicated. I wonder though...was he sick before getting married to his wife, or after he married her? That is really sad though.

I have never had much of an opinion of King Abdullah after I read all this. ( King Hussein touches on the financial straits his parents were in in his book 'Uneasy lies the head' when he says how they had to sell his little bicycle once because they were short of cash. ) He does sound a harsh man. And very old fashioned. I have always wondered if his influence on King Hussein was less than desirable. Inevitably being brought up by such a retrogressive person must have influenced him somewhat, as I believe he admired his grandfather very much. When I lived in Jordan someone told me that King Hussein was in many ways like his grandfather and Prince Hassan was more like the father, in temprament and interests. Certainly Prince Hassan's interest in civil society and education and culture sounds more like the father than the grandfather. Whilst on the subject, someone made a point related to the recent twist to the succession saga in Jordan, which is worth sharing. They said that they think that King Hussein certainly wanted the line to return to his own direct family but also that he was not happy at the prospect that his brother would take the country in a liberal direction that he was not comfortable with. If you look back at the old King's speeches, there is indeed very little about democatic practices and civil society, whereas Prince Hassan barely opened his mouth, both as crown prince and now, except to talk about such matters. This person also suggested that King Hussein was nervous that a reign of a King Hassan could upstage his reign as he knew better than any one else how much of the development and insfratructure of modern Jordan economically, politically and socially owed to his brother, although it was always done in his name and under his intructions. A slant I had not really considered seriously but now think has some validity. And maybe behing the remarks about two courts and two spheres of influence that we hear about regarding the position of a crown prince. After all, King Hussein elevated Intelligence Chiefs and Army Commanders to Prime Minister, and did not encourage political life all that much. And why did he do nothing about the so called honour crimes ? Surely he had the stature to impose his will on the tribes and traditional elements ? Or did he really not care about these things so much. I am now wondering.

[Humera]

Originally Posted by shelley

I have never had much of an opinion of King Abdullah after I read all this. ( King Hussein touches on the financial straits his parents were in in his book 'Uneasy lies the head' when he says how they had to sell his little bicycle once because they were short of cash. ) He does sound a harsh man. And very old fashioned. I have always wondered if his influence on King Hussein was less than desirable. Inevitably being brought up by such a retrogressive person must have influenced him somewhat, as I believe he admired his grandfather very much. When I lived in Jordan someone told me that King Hussein was in many ways like his grandfather and Prince Hassan was more like the father, in temprament and interests. Certainly Prince Hassan's interest in civil society and education and culture sounds more like the father than the grandfather. Whilst on the subject, someone made a point related to the recent twist to the succession saga in Jordan, which is worth sharing. They said that they think that King Hussein certainly wanted the line to return to his own direct family but also that he was not happy at the prospect that his brother would take the country in a liberal direction that he was not comfortable with. If you look back at the old King's speeches, there is indeed very little about democatic practices and civil society, whereas Prince Hassan barely opened his mouth, both as crown prince and now, except to talk about such matters. This person also suggested that King Hussein was nervous that a reign of a King Hassan could upstage his reign as he knew better than any one else how much of the development and insfratructure of modern Jordan economically, politically and socially owed to his brother, although it was always done in his name and under his intructions. A slant I had not really considered seriously but now think has some validity. And maybe behing the remarks about two courts and two spheres of influence that we hear about regarding the position of a crown prince. After all, King Hussein elevated Intelligence Chiefs and Army Commanders to Prime Minister, and did not encourage political life all that much. And why did he do nothing about the so called honour crimes ? Surely he had the stature to impose his will on the tribes and traditional elements ? Or did he really not care about these things so much. I am now wondering.

wouldn't it make sense for King Abdullah to be old fashioned? We're talking about a long time ago here. Most royalty was old fashioned at the time.

[Safaa Batin]

Originally Posted by shelley

I have never had much of an opinion of King Abdullah after I read all this. ( King Hussein touches on the financial straits his parents were in in his book 'Uneasy lies the head' when he says how they had to sell his little bicycle once because they were short of cash. ) He does sound a harsh man. And very old fashioned. I have always wondered if his influence on King Hussein was less than desirable. Inevitably being brought up by such a retrogressive person must have influenced him somewhat, as I believe he admired his grandfather very much. When I lived in Jordan someone told me that King Hussein was in many ways like his grandfather and Prince Hassan was more like the father, in temprament and interests. Certainly Prince Hassan's interest in civil society and education and culture sounds more like the father than the grandfather. Whilst on the subject, someone made a point related to the recent twist to the succession saga in Jordan, which is worth sharing. They said that they think that King Hussein certainly wanted the line to return to his own direct family but also that he was not happy at the prospect that his brother would take the country in a liberal direction that he was not comfortable with. If you look back at the old King's speeches, there is indeed very little about democatic practices and civil society, whereas Prince Hassan barely opened his mouth, both as crown prince and now, except to talk about such matters. This person also suggested that King Hussein was nervous that a reign of a King Hassan could upstage his reign as he knew better than any one else how much of the development and insfratructure of modern Jordan economically, politically and socially owed to his brother, although it was always done in his name and under his intructions. A slant I had not really considered seriously but now think has some validity. And maybe behing the remarks about two courts and two spheres of influence that we hear about regarding the position of a crown prince. After all, King Hussein elevated Intelligence Chiefs and Army Commanders to Prime Minister, and did not encourage political life all that much. And why did he do nothing about the so called honour crimes ? Surely he had the stature to impose his will on the tribes and traditional elements ? Or did he really not care about these things so much. I am now wondering.

no wonder my preferences too are K Talal and p hassan and I think you too shelley, as they say, great mind think alike :p .

but about king hussein being traditional like his grandfather and p hassan being libral like his father, I have somthing to say:

the first prime minister when king Hussain became a king 'Fawzi Almullqi' was liberal and democratical man, and was vey much supported by king hussain, the opposition which was leaded by a former prime minister ( was a prime minister at the time of KA-I ) 'Tawfiq abu alhuda' was conservative. The british supporteded the opposition (the conservatives), and they (british)said it literally that 'almulqi' is better but we prefer 'abu alhuda' , (and this the example i talked about in my brevious post) , the oppositions worked hard to form majority and suceeded in forming a new goverment supported by the conservatives, another arab country and the british,(to people who don't know , Jordan was colonized by britain).
at that time prince hassan was just 6 years old, but actually i am shocked that p hassan is liberal, that makes me shelley ask you if you know about P Hassan opinion in 'Alkabariti ' goverement, who was liberal.

[Safaa Batin]

Originally Posted by shelley

I've done quite a bit of research on King Talal and think he is one of the saddest and most underrated membersof the JRF. By all accounts ( mainly the British records but I have also spoken to Jordanians who knew or knew of him ) he was an intelligent, kindly man. He was responsible for two of the most important decisions in Jordan's poltical life. He was the moving force that gave Jordan a written constution ( an in imperfect document to be sure but better than none ) and behind compulsory education for boys and girls. He played a good game of chess, and rode very well. He enjoyed reading, music and poetry, and although much of his aggression when ill was targeted towards his wife, when well they enjoyed a good, normal relationship. King Abdullah did not like him as he thought he was too progressive ( ie the consititution and girls' education, I guess). He chose to marry Queen Zein rather than the woman his father had chosen of him, and did not care that she didn't wear Hijab or traditional dress. King Talal wanted to go to university in England and his father did not approve thinking he would get even more fancy ideas. So although with the British High Commissioner's help and advice he went to England and studied to the necessary standards and got into Cambridge, his father ordered him away after a semester and insisted he go to Sandhurst. (David Niven the actor was a friend of his and writes well about him in his autobiography). Prince Naif is decribed in the British records as lightweight, a superficial, badly educated man . King Abdullah prefered him as he gave in to his father and did not present any challenges. King Abdullah thought Prince Talal and Princess Zein's influence to be so bad that he took their infant son Hussein from them and brought him up his own. Talal and Zein lost two children. The first because there was no money for them to buy medicine for their infant daughter, nor heat the house, and she died at six months. The second because King Abdullah did not approve of women giving birth in hospital and the baby had some complications that a home delivery could not deal with and died. It is no wonder that King Talal ended his days in a sanatorium. Obviously he was a despressive but this sort of treatment at the hands of his father could not have helped. The British records make sad but interesting reading. :(

King Talal was a great king, and yes he had a sad fate, but I have some comments on your post Shelley, may be things that you don't know:

I wonder of what is written about him in the british records, because the british were not having good relations with him, and he was not there preference, and hat I know that they were against him, may be due to his progressive attitudes, and constitution which is (very) advanced one, etc. but may be I should not wonder of the british behavior to have a good record about him , as they may like his ideas but did not want him to apply it .. I will give an example in my next post.

The other thing what you said about king Abdullah I did not like him because of girl education, as there was girl education in the time of KA, and at the time of my grandmother who was a child when KA I was th king in the 20's girls were going to schools, and the old girl's school in Irbid is called "Musbah" which is the name of KA-I wife.

Third, assuming that his illness is due to his father treatment, is not likely because his father died , and he did great thing after that and became free of his father, the only pressure on him then became only from Britain this could be the reason.

[shelley]

Originally Posted by Safaa Batin

King Talal was a great king, and yes he had a sad fate, but I have some comments on your post Shelley, may be things that you don't know:

I wonder of what is written about him in the british records, because the british were not having good relations with him, and he was not there preference, and hat I know that they were against him, may be due to his progressive attitudes, and constitution which is (very) advanced one, etc. but may be I should not wonder of the british behavior to have a good record about him , as they may like his ideas but did not want him to apply it .. I will give an example in my next post.

The other thing what you said about king Abdullah I did not like him because of girl education, as there was girl education in the time of KA, and at the time of my grandmother who was a child when KA I was th king in the 20's girls were going to schools, and the old girl's school in Irbid is called "Musbah" which is the name of KA-I wife.

Third, assuming that his illness is due to his father treatment, is not likely because his father died , and he did great thing after that and became free of his father, the only pressure on him then became only from Britain this could be the reason.

What I meant about education in that yes, there were of course girls's schools in Jordan before King Talal's reign, but it was he who pushed through legislation that there a basic education was compulsory for both boys and girls.

[wymanda]

Are there any photos of King Talal?

[sommone]

I know I have said this but, that is just really sad. I mean to sell KH's bike...can you see the irony of it all. King Talal must have been humiliated on top of everything else. Poor, poor man. I would like to read KH's book "Uneasy lies the Head." Tragic really.

[rollin_keef]

What about the so called power struggle between Talal and Naif?
Didnt Abdullah prefer Naif to the throne ahead of Talal?
Fav wives...fav sons.....

[shelley]

Originally Posted by rollin_keef

What about the so called power struggle between Talal and Naif?
Didnt Abdullah prefer Naif to the throne ahead of Talal?
Fav wives...fav sons.....

Yes, in fact he at one point tried to replace Talal as heir apparant with Naif, but the British resident intervened and did not let this happen. There has just recently been an interesting article about King Talal's illness in a magazine called History Today but I do not have it here with me just now. It was I think in last month's issue. It makes sad reading as well. I wonder if King Talal was ever given that chance of benefiting from modern treatment. He did not die until the 1970's.

.

[kinneret5764]

King Talal seems such a tragic figure. I think his upbringing may have contributed to his illness later in life. He seemed like a free spirit but his father kept him like a caged bird. KH would have been a different man had KT had more influence on his life. This is truly a sad story: a life that could have been wonderful curtailed by an obviously jealous father.

[rollin_keef]

yep if only
the power struggles of the throne, jealous fathers caging sons

[sommone]

I'm just floored by the thought of KT and QZ being poor, and the fact that their babies died unnecessarily because of all of the BS...So PN is Princess Noor's grandfather or great-grandfather?

Oh, and shelley, if you can find that article that you were speaking about...would you post it so we can read it, please? I can't speak for anyone else, but I would love to read it.

[shelley]

Originally Posted by sommone

I'm just floored by the thought of KT and QZ being poor, and the fact that their babies died unnecessarily because of all of the BS...So PN is Princess Noor's grandfather or great-grandfather?

Grandfather.

[Lyonnaise]

from enWikipedia.org

King Talal bin Abdullah (February 26, 1909 - July 7, 1972) was King of Jordan from July 20, 1951 until forced to abdicate due to health reasons (he suffered from schizophrenia) on August 11, 1952. Talal had ascended the Jordanian throne after the assassination in Jerusalem of his father Abdullah, of which his eldest son, Hussein, was also a near victim. Hussein formally succeeded his father in 1952 (but did not reign immediately, as he was not yet 18 years old).
Born in Mecca in 1909, in 1934 he married Zein al Sharaf Talal. He attended the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst from which he graduated in 1939.

During his short reign he was responsible for the formation of a liberalised constitution for the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, which made the government collectively, and the ministers individually, responsible before the Jordanian Parliament. The constitution was ratified on January 1, 1952. King Talal is also judged as having done much to smooth the previously strained relations between Jordan and the neighbouring Arab states of Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

[Lyonnaise]

some pictures I found

[shelley]

Originally Posted by Lyonnaise

some pictures I found

Yes it is. It is exactly the same picture that was in the magazine article and the baby is Prince Hassan.