The will of Lord John Grimaldi of Monaco (1454)

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Louis14

the 2002 threaty signed by the two countries which allows Monaco to be a sovereign principality, specifies that in return Monaco must put his laws in accordance with the French politics. This threaty too is a real fact.

No Louis, it doesn't specify that. What it does specify is Monaco is required to exercise its sovereignty in complete conformity with the political, military, naval and economic interests of France. If we accepted your argument that Monaco law must be in accordance with French politics, then Monaco would be a republic with a president as Head of State.

[Louis14]

Originally Posted by Warren

No Louis, it doesn't specify that. What it does specify is Monaco is required to exercise its sovereignty in complete conformity with the political, military, naval and economic interests of France. If we accepted your argument that Monaco law must be in accordance with French politics, then Monaco would be a republic with a president as Head of State.

Monaco is not a Republic and I hope, will never be. Monaco is a Principality ruled by a Sovereign Prince, but his sovereignty is supervised by France, even if the 2002 treaty is less restrictive than the 1918 one.

If you prefer to use the diplomatic term of "political interests", then let's use it. Laws voted by the French Parliament relating to total equality between all the children are part of the "political interests" of France. It acts at the same time of the domestic and international policy of France. France is considered by most of EU members as the country of the Human Rights and the leader of these questions of society.

Let's hope Monaco will "exercise its sovereignty in complete conformity" with these laws.

Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.

Originally Posted by BurberryBrit

But Louis, why would PA say they were not in the line of succession if by law they were? And does Monaco really have to consult with France?

I think that PA's answer is a political answer of a Head of State.

I do not know about the US law but under the French law, all children are legitimate heirs of theirs parents. The concept of "illegitimate child" was abolished from the French law. So, the French law authorizes Alexandre to bear the name of Grimaldi and to raise the noble titles and the coat of arms of his father. All the noble titles hold by PA, except the one of Prince of Monaco, are French titles.


The 2002 Treaty makes clear that the means of defense of France and Monaco are similar, but that the two territories are distinct and separate. In return, Monaco will regularly consult with France to make sure that its actions are in accordance with the interests of French politics, economics, security and defense.

Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.

[Grace]

International law is a little more complex than that: prior 2002 Monaco was not even considered a fully indipendent State, but now, after the Constitutional change it is and has the majority of the prerogatives of a Sovereign State. It still has to take France into account for decisions of international relations, but is quite free as regards domestic policy.
BTW if you really want to be the defensor of human rights, the equality if men and women should force all Monarchies to abolish male precedence...I say let's put Caroline on the throne! First born and as much a Grimaldi as her brother!

Anyway, please, let's try to be realistic: how many people in Monaco or France care if Alex or Jazmin will get on the throne? And what power do they have on this matter? None. And what power do we have? Even less. It might be nice to speculate, but keeping in mind the difference between theory and reality. In a way or another the Family will put on the Throne whomever they choose, and I'm pretty sure everything was settled once and for all before Rainier died (and thank God, as he seemed to have more brains than the rest of the Family put together...)

[Louis14]

Originally Posted by Grace

International law is a little more complex than that: prior 2002 Monaco was not even considered a fully indipendent State, but now, after the Constitutional change it is and has the majority of the prerogatives of a Sovereign State. It still has to take France into account for decisions of international relations, but is quite free as regards domestic policy.
BTW if you really want to be the defensor of human rights, the equality if men and women should force all Monarchies to abolish male precedence...I say let's put Caroline on the throne! First born and as much a Grimaldi as her brother!

Anyway, please, let's try to be realistic: how many people in Monaco or France care if Alex or Jazmin will get on the throne? And what power do they have on this matter? None. And what power do we have? Even less. It might be nice to speculate, but keeping in mind the difference between theory and reality. In a way or another the Family will put on the Throne whomever they choose, and I'm pretty sure everything was settled once and for all before Rainier died (and thank God, as he seemed to have more brains than the rest of the Family put together...)

If nobody cares about this in France and in Monaco, then why does it seem to disturb you so much as soon as one speaks about it? I am a French and I know the French opinion on this question.

Thank you for your advise but I wish to keep my freedom of thought, I am not a follower of the single thought.

Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.

[Grace]

I'll tell you clearly why it annoys me that we go round and round again on this subject: if you just stated your wishes, or opinions on the future (like "I hope Albert will change the Constitution so that Alex can be his Heir", or "I hope Albert marries Nicole so that Alex can be legitimized") I would have absolutely No problem becauseI totally believe in freedom of thought and of speech. What bothers me is that you tend to "bend" the facts and the Constitutional theories to prove your point, so each time you post, people think they got the whole thing wrong, and other people feel the need to rectify what you stated. When you say that Monaco has to adopt and respect French legislation, or that Monaco is a member of EU, etc. you just change facts to back up your opinions.
For months we've been posting the same things again and again, and whatever the French public opinion thinks (assuming they had any power on these things, they seemed more interested in CPE anyway) nothing has changed...

To summarize, what bothers me is not legitimate opinions, but "manipulated" facts. Hope I haven't offended you, because I really didn't mean to, but that's how I feel...

Kisses

[Louis14]

Originally Posted by Grace

I'll tell you clearly why it annoys me that we go round and round again on this subject: if you just stated your wishes, or opinions on the future (like "I hope Albert will change the Constitution so that Alex can be his Heir", or "I hope Albert marries Nicole so that Alex can be legitimized") I would have absolutely No problem becauseI totally believe in freedom of thought and of speech. What bothers me is that you tend to "bend" the facts and the Constitutional theories to prove your point, so each time you post, people think they got the whole thing wrong, and other people feel the need to rectify what you stated. When you say that Monaco has to adopt and respect French legislation, or that Monaco is a member of EU, etc. you just change facts to back up your opinions.
For months we've been posting the same things again and again, and whatever the French public opinion thinks (assuming they had any power on these things, they seemed more interested in CPE anyway) nothing has changed...

To summarize, what bothers me is not legitimate opinions, but "manipulated" facts. Hope I haven't offended you, because I really didn't mean to, but that's how I feel...

Kisses

Dear Princess,

This forum is a democratic place.
I respect your opinion, thank you to respect mine.

Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.

[Elspeth]

Grace has already said that she respects your opinion. Her objection is to the way you tend to present your opinions as though they were irrefutable facts.

[Louis14]

Here is the link to the French original version of the 2002 Treaty signed by France and Monaco.
Free to everyone to translate it in order to form his own opinion about the real nature of France/Monaco relations.



http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/WAspad...o=MAEJ0530100D



Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.

[Tosca]

In a way or another the Family will put on the Throne whomever they choose, and I'm pretty sure everything was settled once and for all before Rainier died (and thank God, as he seemed to have more brains than the rest of the Family put together...)[/quote

]

Or, maybe, he learned something by personal experience...
Some years ago I happened to read an article on a mag - actually I cannot recall if it was "OGGI" or "Gente" - that, citing "Paris Match" as a source, was about a "supposed" love child of Prince Rainier. According to the mag, Rainier was romantically involved with a girl of Marchais, where the Grimaldis own a castle, long before he got to know Princess Grace.
Later this girl got married, and her son received her husband's surname.
This man is said to bear a startling resemblance with Prince Rainier, for this reason he's been nicknamed "prince" or "monseigneur" by his friends and colleagues.
The article had no pictures of this guy, so I'm wondering if he really exists. Has any of our French readers heard about this story?

[rosalee]

Why does everyone in present day have a problem with Eric? I think some part of it was included in the media calling him "The Black Prince". Princess Charlotte (great-grandmother) was herself not a white woman. She was of black origin herself, from Algeria, colour watered down only by her princely white father.

[rosalee]

Originally Posted by Tosca

]

Or, maybe, he learned something by personal experience...
Some years ago I happened to read an article on a mag - actually I cannot recall if it was "OGGI" or "Gente" - that, citing "Paris Match" as a source, was about a "supposed" love child of Prince Rainier. According to the mag, Rainier was romantically involved with a girl of Marchais, where the Grimaldis own a castle, long before he got to know Princess Grace.
Later this girl got married, and her son received her husband's surname.
This man is said to bear a startling resemblance with Prince Rainier, for this reason he's been nicknamed "prince" or "monseigneur" by his friends and colleagues.
The article had no pictures of this guy, so I'm wondering if he really exists. Has any of our French readers heard about this story?

I have also heard this story a few times. I think once they even referred to him as "Lord Monaco" since he looks 'just like' Prince Rainier.

Was this the son of Gisele Pascale? I cannot recall now why he chose to not marry her in the end after 6 yrs of courtship?

R.

[rosalee]

Is it not a bit inhuman to somehow validate that the children of a new wife PA would have would somehow be more valuable than the children he already has?