The will of Lord John Grimaldi of Monaco (1454) - Page 8

acid_rain3075 · #**141** 04-01-2006, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tosca

At that time joining the Italian army was mandatory.It became a "volunteer army" only one year ago. Italians are never been that patriotic.

Oh well see I didn't know that! thanks for the new info Tosca!

Suonymona · #**142** 04-01-2006, 01:54 PM

Because of their father's disputed Italian citizenship, could the Casiraghi Trio try for dual Italian citizenship if they wanted to?

Ann

Louis14 · #**143** 04-01-2006, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acid_rain3075

I think what your referring to sounds more like a theocracy then a monarchy

If religion has nothing to do with monarchy, please can you tell us why Princess Caroline asked the Holy Father, the Pope John-Paul II, to legitimate his first three children, in spite of the absence of church wedding?

Louis-le-14ème.

Louis14 · #**144** 04-01-2006, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danielane

Monaco is not member of the EU. Not at all.

Euro is the official currency of Monaco. Monaco who did not sign the act accession to the EU, must be regarded as being a member of EU. Euro is the currency of the only Member States of the EU, under certain conditions.

Louis-le-14ème.

paca · #**145** 04-01-2006, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis14

Euro is the official currency of Monaco. Monaco who did not sign the act accession to the EU, must be regarded as being a member of EU. Euro is the currency of the only Member States of the EU, under certain conditions.

Louis-le-14ème.

No it is not and this statement just shows how you like to twist and turn facts to suit your own purposes. MC has the Euro because of its treaties with France. Before the currency was the Franc. MC would not be able to support its own currency. The use of the French currency guarantees for MC a stable currency which is necessary to be attractive for investors. San Marino and Andorra are doing the same thing, but are, if I am not mistaken, not members of the EU. There are several members of the EU though which do not have the Euro, but as a French legitimist you are probably still cross with the UK and refuse to consider them a member of the EU I suppose. The Euro is not an indicator of membership in the EU. Please get your facts straight.

Louis14 · #**146** 04-01-2006, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paca

You are staring to sound like a broken record when you keep repeating the same things over and over again. We are not stupid. We do get your point, but it just simply doesn't go with the facts.

According to you, the current rule of succession is perfect and corresponds to the Grimaldi spirit.

Please, can you tell us why this rule is so criticized by the members of the House of Grimaldi? Do not forget that Grimaldi of Monaco form part of the same House.

Louis-le-14ème.

paca · #**147** 04-01-2006, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis14

According to you, the current rule of succession is perfect and corresponds to the Grimaldi spirit.

Please, can you tell us why this rule is so criticized by the members of the House of Grimaldi? Do not forget that Grimaldi of Monaco form part of the same House.

Louis-le-14ème.

Which members? And the reason why they would? because they have their own interests. As far as I know there is a distant relation living in France who claims that, if succession rules would have been followed, he would be running MC now. Problem is, then MC was worth nothing, now it is worth billions. So why would someone want to get his hands on it? Beats me

Grace · #**148** 04-01-2006, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis14

If religion has nothing to do with monarchy, please can you tell us why Princess Caroline asked the Holy Father, the Pope John-Paul II, to legitimate his first three children, in spite of the absence of church wedding?

Louis-le-14ème.

You tell me...

BTW, Monaco is definitely not a member of EU; as far as I know they would like to accede though. And they recently joined the Council of Europe (a completely different organization, but still an important one).

Kisses

Louis14 · #**149** 04-01-2006, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paca

MC has the Euro because of its treaties with France. Before the currency was the Franc. MC would not be able to support its own currency. The use of the French currency guarantees for MC a stable currency which is necessary to be attractive for investors.

I agree with you.
The sovereignty of Monaco, compared to France, is not total.
As monarchist, I feel very close to Monaco and this situation does not delight me, but it deserves to be underlined for our US colleagues who think that Monaco is really independent.

Louis-le-14ème.

Suonymona · #**150** 04-01-2006, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis14

If religion has nothing to do with monarchy, please can you tell us why Princess Caroline asked the Holy Father, the Pope John-Paul II, to legitimate his first three children, in spite of the absence of church wedding?

Louis-le-14ème.

Caroline didn't ask the Pope to legitimize her three older children. She petitioned for her marriage to Junot to be annulled-meaning in the eyes of the church, it never took place. Neither her ceremony to Junot or to Stefano took place in a church, but they were religiously binding.

By the Junot marriage never having taken place in the eyes of the Church, her marriage to Stefano Casiraghi became her first and thus her children were recognized as 'legal'.

If the annullment had been rejected, Caroline would still (as long as Junot is living) be considered married to him (in the eyes of the Church) and thusly her children by Stefano AND Ernst would be considered illegitimate, born of unrecognized marriages.

Funny how when corrected on one angle, you take another tact Louis. Just why did you join these Forums?

And calling yourself a monarchist and legitamist while arguing over the validity of a 250+year old will is like calling yourself a Marxist-Leninist and saying Communism is bad.

Ann

ETA spelling error

Grace · #**151** 04-02-2006, 05:36 AM

I'm sorry, but in this Louis is right: when Caro's marriage to Junot was annulled (finally) in 1992, Stefano was unfortunately already dead; so she asked the Pope to recognize her kid as "legitimate" for the Church because her and Stefano could not get married anymore. This happened in 1993.
What I don't agree is the interpretation Louis gives of this, as, as far as I know, neither Alexandra nor Steph's kid are considered legitimate by the Church, but they are in line of succession anyway.

Kisses

paca · #**152** 04-02-2006, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suonymona

Caroline didn't ask the Pope to legitimize her three older children. She petitioned for her marriage to Junot to be annulled-meaning in the eyes of the church, it never took place. Neither her ceremony to Junot or to Stefano took place in a church, but they were religiously binding.

If I remember correctly Caroline was married in the cathedral to Junot. And I believe they actually walked back to the palace (at least that's what the pics seem to suggest). If the ceremony would have been just civil, it would not have been necessary to have an annulment since for the church she wouldn't have been considered married anyways.

paca · #**153** 04-02-2006, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grace

What I don't agree is the interpretation Louis gives of this, as, as far as I know, neither Alexandra nor Steph's kid are considered legitimate by the Church, but they are in line of succession anyway.

Kisses

I think Caro obtained a recognition of her 2nd marriage after Stefanos death. Alexandra is considered part of the house of Hannover not of the Grimaldis. She has also been baptised protestant, if I am not mistaken. Steph was never married in church. But in the change of the constituion it is no where stated that the child needs to be legitimate in the eyes of the church, so as long as the parents have been married to each other, they will be considered legitimate heirs. Thus the only one excluded would be Camille and I think for her it wouldn't matter much, since her chances are so slim that it would have to entail the death of the major part of her family for to get the throne.

acid_rain3075 · #**154** 04-02-2006, 09:23 AM

But didn't Caroline seek an annulment ten years before 1993! But it just took 10 years for the Vatican and the Holy Father to approve to it! Or something like that, thats what I heard happened, but I'm not sure. :o

Grace · #**155** 04-02-2006, 09:45 AM

Caroline got married in the Palais Chapel, not in the Cathedral, on the 29th of June 1978. She divorced in 1980 and soon filed for annulment following her mother's advice. At the time Caro didn't care so much about the annulment but after she met Stefano she became very passionate about it as both of them really wanted to be able to get married in Church. Unfortunately the annulment arrived two years after Stefano death and so Caro wrote a letter to the Pope to ask him to legitimize her three kids in the eyes of the Church.
I don't remember if at the time, religious legitimacy was a condition to accede the throne, but it is not now; thus Louis, Pauline and Alexandra, who are not legitimate children for the Church, are all in line of succession.

Kisses

**Tosca** · #**156** 04-02-2006, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paca

No it is not and this statement just shows how you like to twist and turn facts to suit your own purposes. MC has the Euro because of its treaties with France. Before the currency was the Franc. MC would not be able to support its own currency. The use of the French currency guarantees for MC a stable currency which is necessary to be attractive for investors. San Marino and Andorra are doing the same thing, but are, if I am not mistaken, not members of the EU. There are several members of the EU though which do not have the Euro, but as a French legitimist you are probably still cross with the UK and refuse to consider them a member of the EU I suppose. The Euro is not an indicator of membership in the EU. Please get your facts straight.

Both San Marino and the Vatican have the Euro as their official currency, though they are not EU members.

BurberryBrit · #**157** 04-02-2006, 02:03 PM

OK, now I'm confused. If Steph's and Caro's illegitimate children are in line for the throne then why isn't Alex? He is half Grimaldi like they are, right? That seems backwards to me as he is the direct descendant of the current ruler.

Grace · #**158** 04-02-2006, 02:16 PM

There's a difference between being legitimate for the State (it's enough the parents had a civil marriage like Caro and Ernst or Steph and Daniel) and being legitimate for the Church (the parents must have had a religiously legal marriage, a Catholic one in this case).

In Monaco to be in line of succession you must be legitimate for the State, that's why Camille and Alexandre are excluded, but it is not required Church legitimacy, that's why both Alexandra and Louis and Pauline are in line.

The Casiraghi kids have always been legitimate for the State, but not for the Church until the Pope legitimized them. At the moment this has nothing to do with succession though; I'm not sure if prior 2002 Constitution revision Church legitimacy was needed to accede the throne, but I'm sure now it is not, otherwise Andrea, Pierre and Charlotte would be the only heirs as they are the only ones of the whole bunch who are considered legitimate by the Catholic Church.
Hope it is clearer now.

Kisses