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  #161  
Old 04-06-2006, 05:36 PM
Aristocracy
 
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In the book, Once Upon a Time (2003) by J. Randy Taraborrelli (pgs.316 -317)

During Rainier's jubilee year (1974) Monaco celebrated with a barbeque in the stadium. Grace had recently renounced her American citizenship .It wasn't a difficult decision since she had lived in Monaco 17 years.
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  #162  
Old 04-06-2006, 05:40 PM
acid_rain3075's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis14
On 1 May 2004 ten new Member States joined the EU - the Czech Republic, Estonia, Cyprus, Latvia, Lithuania, Hungary, Malted, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia. The new countries will adopt the Euro only when they fulfil some economic criteria, namely, has high degree of price stability, has sound tax situation, stable exchange spleens and converged length-term interest spleens.

What means that Monaco, who did not sign the accession act to the EU, profits from a preferential treatment because of the influence of France within EU and of a monetary treaty signed with France.

Except being very naive, but it should be known that in policy nothing is free.

All the observers of the EU and French policy know that Monaco, a City-State of 32,000 inhabitants wedged in France whose economy is closely related to the French economy, is regarded as a Member State of the EU because of the accession of France to the EU.

Louis-le-14ème.
But it's not a member of the EU!
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  #163  
Old 04-07-2006, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis14
All the observers of the EU and French policy know that Monaco... is regarded as a Member State of the EU...
Sorry Louis-le-14éme, but to confirm what acid_rain3075 has already posted, your statement is not correct.
According to http://europa.eu.int/abc/governments/index_en.htm ('European Governments on-line') Monaco is not recognised as a member state of the European Union.
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  #164  
Old 04-08-2006, 09:50 PM
Gentry
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren
Let me get this straight... A French Royal Legitimist is advocating French Republican laws to overturn a Ruling Prince's Constitution in regard to succession to the throne so that a clause in a medieval will made 550 years ago forms the basis of succession rights in 2006. Have I got that right?

If if we wish to argue full equality of the sexes in regard to succession, and make it retrospective (as a true Legitimist would), then Princess Antoinette is the rightful Reigning Princess of Monaco as she was born (1920) before Prince Rainier (1923). In this scenario the argument over Alexandre is irrelevant because the true Hereditary Princess of Monaco is (Baroness) Elizabeth de Massy.

Albert and Hanovers, Casiraghis and Costas: usurpers out!
I agree partially with you.
According to the Fundamental Law of 1454, which is not at all medieval because the rule of succession before april 2002 was inspired from it, Princess Charlotte and Princes Rainier and Albert are legitimate.

If Hanovers and Casiraghi persisted in passing in front of the direct descendant of the Reigning Prince Albert II, they would be regarded as usurpers.

A majority of Monegasques do not appreciate that Hanovers are involved in Monaco businesses. France also does not appreciate that. It should be remembered that France supported the current Grimaldi advent to prevent that a German Prince of the Royal family Wurtemberg does not seize the throne of Monaco after the death of Prince Louis II.

Monaco is a city-state wedged in France. The truth is that nothing can be done in Monaco without France agreement.

Louis-le-14ème.
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  #165  
Old 04-09-2006, 04:15 AM
Commoner
 
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It doesn't seem that EA is involved at all .You act as if he's Albert's right hand man.
Quote:
And that "innocent victim" lives a comfortable life at the cost of $15,000 a month. Neither he nor his mother are suffering.
He is an innocent victim is all this. Just a little boy who does not deserve to be spoken about like grabage the way you & others were. Sadly I think it has everything to do with his race. Just becaue he will get money does not mean he won't suffer. Especially if his blood family ignores him & treats him like crap.
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  #166  
Old 04-09-2006, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis14
The truth is that nothing can be done in Monaco without France agreement.

Louis-le-14ème.
Apparently you haven't read the newest treaty between France and MC. The truth is that Monaco is a sovereign state who makes it's sovereign decisions with regards to the treaties it has with other countries (and not only France). Might not want to forget that we are very close to Italy as well, tha the Grimaldis are of Italian origin and tha there are a lot of treaties with Italy too. MC is not part of France and it never will be.
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  #167  
Old 04-09-2006, 05:58 AM
Serene Highness
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GOT FOG?
Sadly I think it has everything to do with his race. Just becaue he will get money does not mean he won't suffer. Especially if his blood family ignores him & treats him like crap.
Why does everything has to be reduced to race issues as soon as a child does't have the same colour of skin as one of the parents. Yes he will have money and he will also suffer (but name me one person in this world who doesn't suffer in one way or the other and who doesn't have any problems - we all do at some stage in our lives and it all depends on hw we are prepared for it and deal with it), but I am absolutely certain that none of his immediate family will ignore him or treat him like crap.You do not seriously think that PC will work so hard for Amade and the rights of all children and then neglect her nephew? I am sure if she get's the chance to be with him she will be just as happy to play with him as with any other children in the family and so will STeph. Not to talk about PA who has always tried to build some sort of relationship with his son in spite of the seperation from his mother. He has done more then a lot of other men do. The Grimaldis may be many things and many might not approve of their of life, but I haven't seen any of them showing or saying anything racist. Best example is probably the help Rainier offered to Josephine Baker ad her rainbow family when she was in dire straits and no one wanted to help her. He welcomed her and her children here til she managed to get back on her feet. No strings attached. PRs children grew up that way, so where would they have acquiered a racist attitude?
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  #168  
Old 04-09-2006, 10:24 AM
Gentry
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paca
Apparently you haven't read the newest treaty between France and MC. The truth is that Monaco is a sovereign state who makes it's sovereign decisions with regards to the treaties it has with other countries (and not only France). Might not want to forget that we are very close to Italy as well, tha the Grimaldis are of Italian origin and tha there are a lot of treaties with Italy too. MC is not part of France and it never will be.
For the case you would not know it, please learn that Monaco is a city-state wedged in France.

Monaco is not wedged in Italy. So, your comparison with Italy is ridiculous.

<personal insult deleted - Elspeth>
Please know that a delegation of French members of Parliament often goes to Monaco to take care of the interests of France and the application of rules enacted by Paris.

Please know that it's France who imposed the current Grimaldi on the throne of Monaco. Otherwise, France threatened to annex Monaco if a German Prince of the Royal family Wurtemberg succeded to Prince Louis II of Monaco.

Please know that the Grimaldi of Monaco owe their title of Prince to *Kings of France* and that in the event of extinction of this family, Monaco would become French.

Louis-le-14&#232;me.
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  #169  
Old 04-09-2006, 10:55 AM
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You keep disregarding internal and international law as if it didn't exist, and seem to have a 17th century look on international relations; things have changed and keep changing, and the last Constitutional revision changed substantially Monaco-France relationship (I have studied it in University, I think I know something about it).
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  #170  
Old 04-09-2006, 10:55 AM
Gentry
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paca
Which members? And the reason why they would? because they have their own interests. As far as I know there is a distant relation living in France who claims that, if succession rules would have been followed, he would be running MC now. Problem is, then MC was worth nothing, now it is worth billions. So why would someone want to get his hands on it? Beats me

The distant relation you're talking about is not alone.

The House of Grimaldi is a large House with many branches. Almost the whole members of the House of Grimaldi think that the modification of the rule of succession on april 2002 was especially intended to support the descendants of Prince Rainier elder daughter.

This is why Legitimists claim the re-establishment of the Fundamental Rule of 1454 that nobody disputes.

Louis-le-14ème.
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  #171  
Old 04-09-2006, 11:18 AM
Gentry
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace
You keep disregarding internal and international law as if it didn't exist, and seem to have a 17th century look on international relations; things have changed and keep changing, and the last Constitutional revision changed substantially Monaco-France relationship (I have studied it in University, I think I know something about it).
So please, let us know what you studied in the US university about the Monaco-France relationship.
The delegations of French members of Parliament about which I speak are not from 17th century.

Louis-le-14ème.
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  #172  
Old 04-09-2006, 11:22 AM
acid_rain3075's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis14
For the case you would not know it, please learn that Monaco is a city-state wedged in France.

Monaco is not wedged in Italy. So, your comparison with Italy is ridiculous.

<deletion for consistency with original - Elspeth>
Please know that a delegation of French members of Parliament often goes to Monaco to take care of the interests of France and the application of rules enacted by Paris.

Please know that it's France who imposed the current Grimaldi on the throne of Monaco. Otherwise, France threatened to annex Monaco if a German Prince of the Royal family Wurtemberg succeded to Prince Louis II of Monaco.

Please know that the Grimaldi of Monaco owe their title of Prince to *Kings of France* and that in the event of extinction of this family, Monaco would become French.

Louis-le-14&#232;me.
<personal insult deleted - Elspeth>Why don't you please remember that Monaco is a sovereign state! It can and will put anyone it wants on the throne! I must agree with Grace on this one though. You seem to be ignoring the fact that Monaco has laws that are in place that will not change because of a will from 1454! Yes maybe Prince Rainier did in fact change the constitution so that Princess Caroline and her descendants may one day rule, but this law has already been passed! Only if Prince Albert changes the constitution or if he has legitimate children will his own line continue! Anyways, unfortunately for Monaco, France does indeed have an unprecedented power in Monaco but I doubt even they are willing to infringe on another countries right to govern themselves!
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  #173  
Old 04-09-2006, 12:12 PM
Grace's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis14
So please, let us know what you studied in the US university about the Monaco-France relationship.
The delegations of French members of Parliament about which I speak are not from 17th century.

Louis-le-14&#232;me.
I don't know if you intended it as an insult, but I'm not American, and don't study in a US University. BTW, I think International law is more or less the same all over the world, so what I studied in Italy is what you would study in US or in France...
Monaco was not considered a full Sovereign State by some international jurists before 2002 (the issue was debated), due to the extensive powers the 1917(?) Treaty granted France. These powers have been reduced so much, almost annulled, by the recent Constitutional change (that French Parliament has recognized) that now Monaco Sovereignty is almost full or at least equal to that of the other micro States that international law recognizes.

I'm sorry you don't believe in law and democracy, and still think (I don't want to speak for you, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that what a dozen of Grimaldi relatives count more than the will of peoples expressed freely by the French and Monaco Parliaments.

Kisses

BTW, I'm not completely crazy studying Monaco in International Law; everyone in my class studied it when we analysed the international status and subjectivity of States and so called micro-States in particular.
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  #174  
Old 04-09-2006, 12:25 PM
Gentry
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paca
I think Caro obtained a recognition of her 2nd marriage after Stefanos death. Alexandra is considered part of the house of Hannover not of the Grimaldis. She has also been baptised protestant, if I am not mistaken. Steph was never married in church. But in the change of the constituion it is no where stated that the child needs to be legitimate in the eyes of the church, so as long as the parents have been married to each other, they will be considered legitimate heirs. Thus the only one excluded would be Camille and I think for her it wouldn't matter much, since her chances are so slim that it would have to entail the death of the major part of her family for to get the throne.
The article 9 of the Monegasque constitution stipulates that: "the catholic, apostolic and Roman religion is the religion of the State".

What means clearly that it's necessary to result from a catholic church wedding to become the Prince of Monaco. I have a great respect for the Holly Father but even a decree of legitimation signed by the Pope does not replace, will never replace, a church wedding.

This constitution, which was however revised to support the descendance of Prince Rainier elder daughter, comprises many weaknesses. The weaknesses of the current law of succession reinforce the legitimists thesis who think that it's necessary to restore the Fundamental Law of 1454 to avoid any dispute.

Louis-le-14ème.
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  #175  
Old 04-09-2006, 12:32 PM
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Rainier was not good enough, the Pope was not good enough, is there a contemporary authority you recognize?

By the way, the Catholic apostolic and Roman religion has been the religion of State in Italy as well for a long time, and this phrase in no way implies that the Head of State must result froma Catholic Church Wedding.

Anyway, if you really expect the next Prince of Monaco to be legitimate for the Church (and even if they are legitimate choose to rule out the Casiraghi), then Monaco throne doesn't have any heir at the moment beside Caroline.
Not one of Rainier's grandchildren was born in a legitimate religious wedding.

Kisses
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  #176  
Old 04-09-2006, 12:50 PM
Gentry
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acid_rain3075
The only person here that is a naive and ridiculous, I'm sorry to say, is you! Why don't you please remember that Monaco is a sovereign state! It can and will put anyone it wants on the throne! I must agree with Grace on this one though. You seem to be ignoring the fact that Monaco has laws that are in place that will not change because of a will from 1454! Yes maybe Prince Rainier did in fact change the constitution so that Princess Caroline and her descendants may one day rule, but this law has already been passed! Only if Prince Albert changes the constitution or if he has legitimate children will his own line continue! Anyways, unfortunately for Monaco, France does indeed have an unprecedented power in Monaco but I doubt even they are willing to infringe on another countries right to govern themselves!
My arguments are based on real facts.
If you prefer to continue to dream, please continue to dream by thinking that Monaco, a micro-state wedged in France, is a really sovereign state.

Louis-le-14&#232;me.
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  #177  
Old 04-09-2006, 01:15 PM
Gentry
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace
I don't know if you intended it as an insult, but I'm not American, and don't study in a US University. BTW, I think International law is more or less the same all over the world, so what I studied in Italy is what you would study in US or in France...
Monaco was not considered a full Sovereign State by some international jurists before 2002 (the issue was debated), due to the extensive powers the 1917(?) Treaty granted France. These powers have been reduced so much, almost annulled, by the recent Constitutional change (that French Parliament has recognized) that now Monaco Sovereignty is almost full or at least equal to that of the other micro States that international law recognizes.

I'm sorry you don't believe in law and democracy, and still think (I don't want to speak for you, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that what a dozen of Grimaldi relatives count more than the will of peoples expressed freely by the French and Monaco Parliaments.

Kisses

BTW, I'm not completely crazy studying Monaco in International Law; everyone in my class studied it when we analysed the international status and subjectivity of States and so called micro-States in particular.
I would not allow myself to insult you, dear Princess Grace. This is only a debate.

Louis-le-14ème.
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  #178  
Old 04-09-2006, 01:18 PM
Gentry
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace
Rainier was not good enough, the Pope was not good enough, is there a contemporary authority you recognize?

By the way, the Catholic apostolic and Roman religion has been the religion of State in Italy as well for a long time, and this phrase in no way implies that the Head of State must result froma Catholic Church Wedding.

Anyway, if you really expect the next Prince of Monaco to be legitimate for the Church (and even if they are legitimate choose to rule out the Casiraghi), then Monaco throne doesn't have any heir at the moment beside Caroline.
Not one of Rainier's grandchildren was born in a legitimate religious wedding.

Kisses
Monaco is a catholic monarchy. Italy is not any more a monarchy, this article 9 does not have the same meaning in Italy.

Louis-le-14ème.
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  #179  
Old 04-09-2006, 01:24 PM
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Of course I didn't take it as an insult, everything is fine, but why should an article of a Constitution have a different meaning in Consitutional Monarchy and in a Republic?
Anyway, according to your standards, that disregard the will of the Pope for religious legitimacy, the Grimaldi Family is extinguished after Caro, for lack of heirs.
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  #180  
Old 04-09-2006, 01:29 PM
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Could we turn down the heat a bit, please? I realise people are getting frustrated, but personal insults are against the rules. I've just had to do some editing, and I don't want to end up having to close the thread because people can't be polite.

Elspeth

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