The will of Lord John Grimaldi of Monaco (1454)

[Louis14]

Originally Posted by Toledo

I meant Juan Carlos' older...oh...you know :p

Actually, I recall that most of the Borbones have taken the throne from the hands of their older sisters, so Juan Carlos today would have been a very distantly related cousin of whoever would be the actual king or queen.

King Juan Carlos of Spain forgot that his cousin, Prince Alphonse de Bourbon, the elder of all the descendance of their grandfather, King Alphonse XIII, was excludes from the inheritance order of Spain because of a Rule which excluded any heir of the throne who had married a woman non resulting from a Sovereign House.

What happen today of this Rule which allowed the advent of Juan Carlos on the throne of Spain in 1975? Does the Prince's of Asturies wife come from a Sovereign House?

If this Rule of succession was not respected by King Juan Carlos, then Legitimists of Spain and France will consider that Prince Louis de Bourbon, the son of Prince Alphonse de Bourbon, the elder of all Capetians and all the descendance of King Alphonse XIII, should be the future King of Spain.

Louis-le-14ème.

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Louis14

What happen today of this Rule which allowed the advent of Juan Carlos on the throne of Spain in 1975? Does the Prince's of Asturies wife come from a Sovereign House?

If this Rule of succession was not respected by King Juan Carlos, then Legitimists of Spain and France will consider that Prince Louis de Bourbon, the son of Prince Alphonse de Bourbon, the elder of all Capetians and all the descendance of King Alphonse XIII, should be the future King of Spain.

Louis-le-14ème.

Things are fine in Spain the way they are now, Juan Carlos and Sofia survived all the drama and conspiracies against them in the 1960's, Felipe married out of love and Leonor will be queen one day.

But this Bourbon/Borbon talk should be for another thread, let's stick with the Glamorous Grimaldis

Hmm, the Glamorous Grimaldis, sounds like a good name for a new fashion thread? Anyone feel free to take it, my donation will be just the title! :)

[Grace]

Excuse me, but nowadays, monarchies have mainly to do with glamour and image. Monarchs have very little power, Monaco being a notable exception, on governing their Countries. I'm sorry, but that's the truth, and I consider it a very important improvement.

Kisses

[Suonymona]

Because of their father's disputed Italian citizenship, could the Casiraghi Trio try for dual Italian citizenship if they wanted to?

Ann

[Grace]

I'm sorry, but in this Louis is right: when Caro's marriage to Junot was annulled (finally) in 1992, Stefano was unfortunately already dead; so she asked the Pope to recognize her kid as "legitimate" for the Church because her and Stefano could not get married anymore. This happened in 1993.
What I don't agree is the interpretation Louis gives of this, as, as far as I know, neither Alexandra nor Steph's kid are considered legitimate by the Church, but they are in line of succession anyway.

Kisses

[paca]

Originally Posted by Grace

What I don't agree is the interpretation Louis gives of this, as, as far as I know, neither Alexandra nor Steph's kid are considered legitimate by the Church, but they are in line of succession anyway.

Kisses

I think Caro obtained a recognition of her 2nd marriage after Stefanos death. Alexandra is considered part of the house of Hannover not of the Grimaldis. She has also been baptised protestant, if I am not mistaken. Steph was never married in church. But in the change of the constituion it is no where stated that the child needs to be legitimate in the eyes of the church, so as long as the parents have been married to each other, they will be considered legitimate heirs. Thus the only one excluded would be Camille and I think for her it wouldn't matter much, since her chances are so slim that it would have to entail the death of the major part of her family for to get the throne.

[Louis14]

Originally Posted by paca

I think Caro obtained a recognition of her 2nd marriage after Stefanos death. Alexandra is considered part of the house of Hannover not of the Grimaldis. She has also been baptised protestant, if I am not mistaken. Steph was never married in church. But in the change of the constituion it is no where stated that the child needs to be legitimate in the eyes of the church, so as long as the parents have been married to each other, they will be considered legitimate heirs. Thus the only one excluded would be Camille and I think for her it wouldn't matter much, since her chances are so slim that it would have to entail the death of the major part of her family for to get the throne.

The article 9 of the Monegasque constitution stipulates that: "the catholic, apostolic and Roman religion is the religion of the State".

What means clearly that it's necessary to result from a catholic church wedding to become the Prince of Monaco. I have a great respect for the Holly Father but even a decree of legitimation signed by the Pope does not replace, will never replace, a church wedding.

This constitution, which was however revised to support the descendance of Prince Rainier elder daughter, comprises many weaknesses. The weaknesses of the current law of succession reinforce the legitimists thesis who think that it's necessary to restore the Fundamental Law of 1454 to avoid any dispute.

Louis-le-14ème.

[acid_rain3075]

But didn't Caroline seek an annulment ten years before 1993! But it just took 10 years for the Vatican and the Holy Father to approve to it! Or something like that, thats what I heard happened, but I'm not sure. :o

[Grace]

Caroline got married in the Palais Chapel, not in the Cathedral, on the 29th of June 1978. She divorced in 1980 and soon filed for annulment following her mother's advice. At the time Caro didn't care so much about the annulment but after she met Stefano she became very passionate about it as both of them really wanted to be able to get married in Church. Unfortunately the annulment arrived two years after Stefano death and so Caro wrote a letter to the Pope to ask him to legitimize her three kids in the eyes of the Church.
I don't remember if at the time, religious legitimacy was a condition to accede the throne, but it is not now; thus Louis, Pauline and Alexandra, who are not legitimate children for the Church, are all in line of succession.

Kisses

[Grace]

There's a difference between being legitimate for the State (it's enough the parents had a civil marriage like Caro and Ernst or Steph and Daniel) and being legitimate for the Church (the parents must have had a religiously legal marriage, a Catholic one in this case).

In Monaco to be in line of succession you must be legitimate for the State, that's why Camille and Alexandre are excluded, but it is not required Church legitimacy, that's why both Alexandra and Louis and Pauline are in line.

The Casiraghi kids have always been legitimate for the State, but not for the Church until the Pope legitimized them. At the moment this has nothing to do with succession though; I'm not sure if prior 2002 Constitution revision Church legitimacy was needed to accede the throne, but I'm sure now it is not, otherwise Andrea, Pierre and Charlotte would be the only heirs as they are the only ones of the whole bunch who are considered legitimate by the Catholic Church.
Hope it is clearer now.

Kisses

[BurberryBrit]

I see. So he and NC would have to get married. Highly unlikely

[Grace]

You keep disregarding internal and international law as if it didn't exist, and seem to have a 17th century look on international relations; things have changed and keep changing, and the last Constitutional revision changed substantially Monaco-France relationship (I have studied it in University, I think I know something about it).

[Louis14]

Originally Posted by Grace

You keep disregarding internal and international law as if it didn't exist, and seem to have a 17th century look on international relations; things have changed and keep changing, and the last Constitutional revision changed substantially Monaco-France relationship (I have studied it in University, I think I know something about it).

So please, let us know what you studied in the US university about the Monaco-France relationship.
The delegations of French members of Parliament about which I speak are not from 17th century.

Louis-le-14ème.

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Louis14

So please, let us know what you studied in the US university about the Monaco-France relationship.
The delegations of French members of Parliament about which I speak are not from 17th century.

Louis-le-14ème.

I don't know if you intended it as an insult, but I'm not American, and don't study in a US University. BTW, I think International law is more or less the same all over the world, so what I studied in Italy is what you would study in US or in France...
Monaco was not considered a full Sovereign State by some international jurists before 2002 (the issue was debated), due to the extensive powers the 1917(?) Treaty granted France. These powers have been reduced so much, almost annulled, by the recent Constitutional change (that French Parliament has recognized) that now Monaco Sovereignty is almost full or at least equal to that of the other micro States that international law recognizes.

I'm sorry you don't believe in law and democracy, and still think (I don't want to speak for you, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that what a dozen of Grimaldi relatives count more than the will of peoples expressed freely by the French and Monaco Parliaments.

Kisses

BTW, I'm not completely crazy studying Monaco in International Law; everyone in my class studied it when we analysed the international status and subjectivity of States and so called micro-States in particular.

[Louis14]

Originally Posted by Grace

I don't know if you intended it as an insult, but I'm not American, and don't study in a US University. BTW, I think International law is more or less the same all over the world, so what I studied in Italy is what you would study in US or in France...
Monaco was not considered a full Sovereign State by some international jurists before 2002 (the issue was debated), due to the extensive powers the 1917(?) Treaty granted France. These powers have been reduced so much, almost annulled, by the recent Constitutional change (that French Parliament has recognized) that now Monaco Sovereignty is almost full or at least equal to that of the other micro States that international law recognizes.

I'm sorry you don't believe in law and democracy, and still think (I don't want to speak for you, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that what a dozen of Grimaldi relatives count more than the will of peoples expressed freely by the French and Monaco Parliaments.

Kisses

BTW, I'm not completely crazy studying Monaco in International Law; everyone in my class studied it when we analysed the international status and subjectivity of States and so called micro-States in particular.

I would not allow myself to insult you, dear Princess Grace. This is only a debate.

Louis-le-14ème.

[Grace]

Rainier was not good enough, the Pope was not good enough, is there a contemporary authority you recognize?

By the way, the Catholic apostolic and Roman religion has been the religion of State in Italy as well for a long time, and this phrase in no way implies that the Head of State must result froma Catholic Church Wedding.

Anyway, if you really expect the next Prince of Monaco to be legitimate for the Church (and even if they are legitimate choose to rule out the Casiraghi), then Monaco throne doesn't have any heir at the moment beside Caroline.
Not one of Rainier's grandchildren was born in a legitimate religious wedding.

Kisses

[Louis14]

Originally Posted by Grace

Rainier was not good enough, the Pope was not good enough, is there a contemporary authority you recognize?

By the way, the Catholic apostolic and Roman religion has been the religion of State in Italy as well for a long time, and this phrase in no way implies that the Head of State must result froma Catholic Church Wedding.

Anyway, if you really expect the next Prince of Monaco to be legitimate for the Church (and even if they are legitimate choose to rule out the Casiraghi), then Monaco throne doesn't have any heir at the moment beside Caroline.
Not one of Rainier's grandchildren was born in a legitimate religious wedding.

Kisses

Monaco is a catholic monarchy. Italy is not any more a monarchy, this article 9 does not have the same meaning in Italy.

Louis-le-14ème.

[Grace]

Of course I didn't take it as an insult, everything is fine, but why should an article of a Constitution have a different meaning in Consitutional Monarchy and in a Republic?
Anyway, according to your standards, that disregard the will of the Pope for religious legitimacy, the Grimaldi Family is extinguished after Caro, for lack of heirs.

[Louis14]

Originally Posted by Grace

Of course I didn't take it as an insult, everything is fine, but why should an article of a Constitution have a different meaning in Consitutional Monarchy and in a Republic?
Anyway, according to your standards, that disregard the will of the Pope for religious legitimacy, the Grimaldi Family is extinguished after Caro, for lack of heirs.

It's the major weakness of the current Monegasque constitution in which one finds articles which are contradicted! These weaknesses can be exploited by all the potential heirs.

Louis-le-14ème.

[Elspeth]

Could we turn down the heat a bit, please? I realise people are getting frustrated, but personal insults are against the rules. I've just had to do some editing, and I don't want to end up having to close the thread because people can't be polite.

Elspeth

Monaco moderator