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  #81  
Old 03-29-2006, 10:08 AM
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i must say, I do like the way you write Toledo! Very well put!
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  #82  
Old 03-29-2006, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren
I think you'll find that 'Legitimists' don't believe in Constitutions. Or Parliaments. Or the 'Will of the People'. ...

Case in point: our Legitimist colleague would gladly overturn (or ignore) the Constitution of Monaco in favour of a clause in a will made in 1454.
Warren, it happens everywhere. In Spain we have the Carlistas, who dream to turn back time to a 18th Century Spain. Even Franco kicked them and their pretender out of Spain in the 60's and King Juan Carlos made sure everyone in his large family, in Spain and abroad, knew there is only one Royal family and only one King of Spain, no more of that King ___ I or II or III in exile nonsense.
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  #83  
Old 03-29-2006, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acid_rain3075
i must say, I do like the way you write Toledo! Very well put!
Thanks, it took a lot of re-writes too but I'm home for a few more minutes so I took my time to polish up that post . I love the style of idea association (from Charles Darwin to Rainier) to give my point some weight. And makes reading it funny too, it's the clown in me.
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  #84  
Old 03-29-2006, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren
I think you'll find that 'Legitimists' don't believe in Constitutions. Or Parliaments. Or the 'Will of the People'.
(see Charles I and James II, and for French Legitimists, the comte de Chambord).

Case in point: our Legitimist colleague would gladly overturn (or ignore) the Constitution of Monaco in favour of a clause in a will made in 1454.
As always, Warren, very well said. No one has the right to overturn the constitution of Monaco that was put in place in 2002 by the ruling Prince and with the consent, and I might add gratefullness, of its people. :)
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  #85  
Old 03-29-2006, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toledo
William the Conqueror? As the popular saying goes, are we confusing apples with oranges? a cat for a rabbit?...I don't see Nicole Coste entering any Rose Ball event as the grande dame of Monaco any time soon. Nor her son, the real innocent victim in all this mess Albert and Nicole brought all to themselves.
The apples are the 10 illegitimate children of William I and the orange is obviously Eric Coste. Either way the cat nor the rabbit will rule Monaco or Great Britain...And that "innocent victim" lives a comfortable life at the cost of $15,000 a month. Neither he nor his mother are suffering.
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  #86  
Old 03-29-2006, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toledo
Prince Rainier saw the mess that would happen after his death and started changing things around to protect Monaco and his family, and protect Albert from himself and his women...
You seem to forget that Monaco is a christian catholic monarchy which has nothing to do with the festive theatre or the businesses bank that you describe.

You seem to forget that one does not change a rule of succession, six centuries old, for personal reasons or to support one of his daughter's descendance.

You seem to forget that monarchy is the exaltation of royal blood; and that all that rises from crowned person of the Reigning Prince is inevitably crowned. According to you, what is the use of the mass of enthronement?

You seem to forget that Monaco has a government whose role is to manage the businesses of the State of Monaco.

You seem to forget that the Reigning Prince Albert II does not ignore the reasons which justified the constitutional modification of 2002.

You seem to forget that the new French Law on the filiation banish for ever the notion of "illegitimate child", and that Alexandre was born in France.

Which credibility can one grant to a modification which excludes the natural children from the inheritance order, made by a Prince whose mother was herself a natural child?

Louis-le-14me
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  #87  
Old 03-29-2006, 09:32 PM
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What is France going to do? Invade Monaco and enforce the 1454 will of Lord John? lol. Barring that, the fans of EC are out of luck. I also wonder why they are not as equally adamant that Camille, PS's youngest daughter be put in the line of succession to the Monegasque throne?
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  #88  
Old 03-29-2006, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis14
You seem to forget that Monaco is a christian catholic monarchy which has nothing to do with the festive theatre or the businesses bank that you describe.
You seem to forget that one does not change a rule of succession, six centuries old, for personal reasons or to support one of his daughter's descendance.
You seem to forget that monarchy is the exaltation of royal blood; and that all that rises from crowned person of the Reigning Prince is inevitably crowned. According to you, what is the use of the mass of enthronement?
You seem to forget that Monaco has a government whose role is to manage the businesses of the State of Monaco.
You seem to forget that the Reigning Prince Albert II does not ignore the reasons which justified the constitutional modification of 2002.
You seem to forget that the new French Law on the filiation banish for ever the notion of "illegitimate child", and that Alexandre was born in France.
Which credibility can one grant to a modification which excludes the natural children from the inheritance order, made by a Prince whose mother was herself a natural child?
Just because this law was passed in France and Alexnadre was born in France, DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING! YOU are forgetting that Monaco is a SOVEREIGN STATE! France does not control Monaco in anyway! THEREFORE the laws that govern France do not apply to Monaco and it's citizens And Monaco is not a theocracy so just because the monarchy is catholic does mean anything either!
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  #89  
Old 03-29-2006, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laviollette
What is France going to do? Invade Monaco and enforce the 1454 will of Lord John? lol. Barring that, the fans of EC are out of luck. I also wonder why they are not as equally adamant that Camille, PS's youngest daughter be put in the line of succession to the Monegasque throne?
I hate to say but I think has almost everything to do the fact that Alexandre is half black (and well the son of PA). To me it makes no difference!
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  #90  
Old 03-30-2006, 01:27 AM
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If that were the case, then why does PA not say anything definite one way or the other about Jazmin?

My personal thought is that she is his and that her birth being before the Constitutional could result in the argument Louis is putting forth, that she (Jazmin) should be the heir apparent to Albert.

I don't think Eric being half-black is the problem, I truly think its Nicole.
If Albert were able to raise Eric-as the full parent-in Monaco, in the royal duty way Albert himself was reared, Eric could grow up to be a very accepted Hereditary Prince. But given how Nicole 'came out' about Eric and her relationship with Albert, she has shown she is not capable of handling the responsiblity that would go along with raising a royal son.

Should anything happen to Nicole, I think Albert would step in and raise Eric. And without having any other children, he could then maybe make him his heir.

I think the woman Albert chooses to marry will be accepting of Eric, but Nicole will always be a problem. A problem Monaco cannot have raising its next Prince.

Ann
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  #91  
Old 03-30-2006, 01:36 AM
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I also agree that it doesn't have much to do with Alex being half black as much as NC being his mother. I would say Nicole is 85% of the problem and Alex's race is 15%.
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  #92  
Old 03-30-2006, 01:40 AM
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On being bold...

OK, Message Board etiquette holds that writing in capitals is shouting; bolding certain lines of a post comes close to shouting at each other as well.
Members with very strong views are not likely to have these views changed, bolded words or not, and the rest of us are able to read entire posts without the need for added emphasis on specific phrases or sentences. Communicating via a keyboard is not the same as addressing a public meeting through a loud-hailer.

Without members with strong or "different" viewpoints we would not have the robust and enjoyable debates and exchanges of facts and opinions that we have seen in this thread.
There's no point in getting frustrated, just go along for the ride. :)

thanks,
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  #93  
Old 03-30-2006, 01:55 AM
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I'm sorry but why all this debate about a will made in the 15th century? That was more than 5 centuries back. I may be wrong but the succession law has been changed a few times since then. So I suppose the all the changes after the will of this Lord John Grimaldi were also not valid if one would follow his will. Why single out the most recent changes?

Also, are the legitimists saying that the 15th century will takes precedence over a modern constitution? Goodness, we might have to bring in the International Court of Justice-not sure of the proper body-or similar to handle this dispute!

It's true that Prince Rainier II changed the succession rules but isn't the constitution approved by Monaco's Council? Does France have to ratify it before it becomes valid and enforceable? Monaco is a sovereign state. I don't see any riots or major upheaval happening in France or Monaco because Alexandre Coste (whom I find totally adorable) isn't in the line of succession.
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  #94  
Old 03-30-2006, 03:20 AM
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It was a law proposed by Prince Rainier in 2002. It was passed by the Monaco Council and then ratified by France. It was finally enacted in 2003 which leads people to erroneously think it was done because of Eric Alexandre when the whole process was begun before Nicole was even pregnant!

While this discussion of the will has been interesting and certainly lively, it is true that it doesn't hold much weight or people would have tried to have it validated when Rainier proposed the newest changes the legally binding and officially enforced Monaco Constitution.

Ann
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  #95  
Old 03-30-2006, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis14
You seem to forget that Monaco is a christian catholic monarchy which has nothing to do with the festive theatre or the businesses bank that you describe.
How do we say? Fiscal paradise? Yeah, definitely one.
As for the christian catholic monarchy, let's talk about the catholic behaviour of the Grimaldi family...

Quote:
You seem to forget that one does not change a rule of succession, six centuries old, for personal reasons or to support one of his daughter's descendance.
The rule of succession has been judged constitutional. So I really don't see the problem.

Quote:
You seem to forget that monarchy is the exaltation of royal blood; and that all that rises from crowned person of the Reigning Prince is inevitably crowned. According to you, what is the use of the mass of enthronement?
Royal blood for the Grimaldis? Before 1900, yes. After, I don't see much royal blood in them. Grace was a commoner, Nicole Coste is another. Both Rainier's parents were noble, but her mother had a commoner for mother. Very royal.

Quote:
You seem to forget that Monaco has a government whose role is to manage the businesses of the State of Monaco.
Monaco, not France. So your point to come is irrelevant.

Quote:
You seem to forget that the Reigning Prince Albert II does not ignore the reasons which justified the constitutional modification of 2002.
That does not mean he disapproves them and he will modify the law.

Quote:
You seem to forget that the new French Law on the filiation banish for ever the notion of "illegitimate child", and that Alexandre was born in France.
You seem to forget the french law has nothing to see with monegasque law. Both countries are souveraign states.

Quote:
Which credibility can one grant to a modification which excludes the natural children from the inheritance order, made by a Prince whose mother was herself a natural child?

Louis-le-14me
A pleasure to talk with legitimists. They simply can't bear the contradiction.
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  #96  
Old 03-30-2006, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suonymona
If that were the case, then why does PA not say anything definite one way or the other about Jazmin?

My personal thought is that she is his and that her birth being before the Constitutional could result in the argument Louis is putting forth, that she (Jazmin) should be the heir apparent to Albert.

I don't think Eric being half-black is the problem, I truly think its Nicole.
If Albert were able to raise Eric-as the full parent-in Monaco, in the royal duty way Albert himself was reared, Eric could grow up to be a very accepted Hereditary Prince. But given how Nicole 'came out' about Eric and her relationship with Albert, she has shown she is not capable of handling the responsiblity that would go along with raising a royal son.

Should anything happen to Nicole, I think Albert would step in and raise Eric. And without having any other children, he could then maybe make him his heir.

I think the woman Albert chooses to marry will be accepting of Eric, but Nicole will always be a problem. A problem Monaco cannot have raising its next Prince.

Ann
Even if Prince Albert were to raise Alexandre (or Eric, whatever you want to call him), that wouldn't make him Alberts heir! Yes Nicole is a problem, a major one at that! But I highly doubt that even if she were not there, Albert still wouldn't want to raise him. But if Nicole really wasn't there who knows, he would in a way be force to! Anyways, P. Albert would still have to change the Constitution for Alexandre to be heir, which of course still seems highly unlikely
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  #97  
Old 03-30-2006, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suonymona
If that were the case, then why does PA not say anything definite one way or the other about Jazmin?

My personal thought is that she is his and that her birth being before the Constitutional could result in the argument Louis is putting forth, that she (Jazmin) should be the heir apparent to Albert.
Jazmin, whether PA's or not has even less standing than his son either before or after 2002. She was still illegitimate, she was not adopted as would have been required before 2002, and she's a girl. Any son would have more standing and male primogeniture was reaffirmed in the 2002 constitutional changes.
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  #98  
Old 03-30-2006, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by acid_rain3075
Just because this law was passed in France and Alexnadre was born in France, DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING! YOU are forgetting that Monaco is a SOVEREIGN STATE! France does not control Monaco in anyway! THEREFORE the laws that govern France do not apply to Monaco and it's citizens


In case of conflict of laws between France and Monaco, Alexandre, been born in France, could benefit of the new French law. So, he would be considered in the same way as all the other children of Grimaldi princely family.

Louis-le-14me
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  #99  
Old 03-30-2006, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Louis14
In case of conflict of laws between France and Monaco, Alexandre, been born in France, could benefit of the new French law. So, he would be considered in the same way as all the other children of Grimaldi princely family.

Louis-le-14me
Again, things are a little more complicated as he is French citizens but Albert isn't, so Albert is not subject to France law. Not only he is a foreign citizens, but he also as peculiar rights exemptions and immunities from jurisdiction of other Countries being a Head of State (who in international law are like diplomats, so immune from jurisdiction...)

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  #100  
Old 03-30-2006, 03:19 PM
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Since their advent on the throne of Monaco, Grimaldi never have exclude natural children from the inheritance order.

Legitimists militate for the application of this Fundamental Rule of succession which always made the originality of the Grimaldi dynasty of Monaco.

Our reasoning applies to all Grimaldi children concerned, Alexandre, Camille, Jazmin (if it was proven that she was Prince Albert's daughter).

In addition, Monaco in its membership of the EU, cannot be unaware of the will of the EU to promote total equality between men and women, and between all the children, whether they were born or not from the wedding union.

France has changed his law, the other EU countries will not have another political choice only to follow the way traced by France.

Louis-le-14me.
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