The will of Lord John Grimaldi of Monaco (1454)

[pinklady1991]

Originally Posted by paca

You are staring to sound like a broken record when you keep repeating the same things over and over again. We are not stupid. We do get your point, but it just simply doesn't go with the facts. Besides just for the record MC is not a member of the EU and Frances laws do not reglement MC law, even though they are similar in a lot of ways. But unlike in most other western countries, Monaco does prefer male dominance, which makes it also easier for a father to obtain custody. A child automatically receives the fathers name, even if the parents are not married. THEy are bureaucratically handled under their father (health insurance etc.). MC is a far cry from equality between men and women (we are about in the 50s here). It is very recent that a Monegasque woman can pass her citizenship to her children, when her usband is not monegasque. Hence at the time of their birth (if they would have been born to regular people) Stephs children would have been considered as French citizens. Same goes for the Casiraghis, they would have been considered Italians. Just so you get your facts straight.

Oh and btw you seem to be ok with France changing it's laws and forcing other countries to change theirs. So how come you can not accept the changes that have been made in MC? You might want to make up your mind about whether you want those ancient laws to rule or the recent ones. You can't just go about and pick which ever law suits your purposes.

Amen, paca. BTW, hope you are feeling better.

I didn't know that MC was so behind in gender equality. I guess that's something else we'll have to fix. This is probably for another thread, but I'm surprised that PA never mentioned gender equality in his speech last July. Is there no call for it in MC?

[paca]

Originally Posted by pinklady1991

Amen, paca. BTW, hope you are feeling better.

I didn't know that MC was so behind in gender equality. I guess that's something else we'll have to fix. This is probably for another thread, but I'm surprised that PA never mentioned gender equality in his speech last July. Is there no call for it in MC?

Yes there is and he seems to be doing sth aout it without having it in his program. Anyways MC is in a lot of ways still stuck in the 50s. As far as I have been informed, being gay is still considered a crime here. So there is still a lot of catching up to do with the rest of the world.

[Juliet]

Originally Posted by paca

It is very recent that a Monegasque woman can pass her citizenship to her children, when her usband is not monegasque.

How recent? I was under the impression that that was still the case actally.

[paca]

Originally Posted by Juliet

How recent? I was under the impression that that was still the case actally.

I think the law was voted 2 years ago, but I wouldn't swear on it. It was definetely initiated by PR as put into action while he was still alive. But there is still a lot of work to be done. BTW children who were born before, have now the right to claim their citizenship and have the same benefits (which are tremendous when you live in MC) as those born to a Monegasque father.

[acid_rain3075]

Originally Posted by paca

I think the law was voted 2 years ago, but I wouldn't swear on it. It was definetely initiated by PR as put into action while he was still alive. But there is still a lot of work to be done. BTW children who were born before, have now the right to claim their citizenship and have the same benefits (which are tremendous when you live in MC) as those born to a Monegasque father.

wait does that mean that the Casiraghis weren't thought of as being Monegasque when they were born or did that not apply to them?

[Tosca]

Originally Posted by acid_rain3075

wait does that mean that the Casiraghis weren't thought of as being Monegasque when they were born or did that not apply to them?

Stefano was a naturalized Monegasque citizen

[Juliet]

Originally Posted by paca

I think the law was voted 2 years ago, but I wouldn't swear on it. It was definetely initiated by PR as put into action while he was still alive. But there is still a lot of work to be done. BTW children who were born before, have now the right to claim their citizenship and have the same benefits (which are tremendous when you live in MC) as those born to a Monegasque father.

Thanks for the info, I hadn't realised the law had changed. Which benefits do you mean?

[Louis14]

Originally Posted by paca

You are staring to sound like a broken record when you keep repeating the same things over and over again. We are not stupid. We do get your point, but it just simply doesn't go with the facts.

According to you, the current rule of succession is perfect and corresponds to the Grimaldi spirit.

Please, can you tell us why this rule is so criticized by the members of the House of Grimaldi? Do not forget that Grimaldi of Monaco form part of the same House.

Louis-le-14ème.

[paca]

Originally Posted by Louis14

According to you, the current rule of succession is perfect and corresponds to the Grimaldi spirit.

Please, can you tell us why this rule is so criticized by the members of the House of Grimaldi? Do not forget that Grimaldi of Monaco form part of the same House.

Louis-le-14ème.

Which members? And the reason why they would? because they have their own interests. As far as I know there is a distant relation living in France who claims that, if succession rules would have been followed, he would be running MC now. Problem is, then MC was worth nothing, now it is worth billions. So why would someone want to get his hands on it? Beats me

[Louis14]

Originally Posted by paca

Which members? And the reason why they would? because they have their own interests. As far as I know there is a distant relation living in France who claims that, if succession rules would have been followed, he would be running MC now. Problem is, then MC was worth nothing, now it is worth billions. So why would someone want to get his hands on it? Beats me

The distant relation you're talking about is not alone.

The House of Grimaldi is a large House with many branches. Almost the whole members of the House of Grimaldi think that the modification of the rule of succession on april 2002 was especially intended to support the descendants of Prince Rainier elder daughter.

This is why Legitimists claim the re-establishment of the Fundamental Rule of 1454 that nobody disputes.

Louis-le-14ème.

[acid_rain3075]

Nonsense! Things like change anytime and by anyone!

[acid_rain3075]

Originally Posted by Louis14

There cannot be monarchy without religion, nor traditions.

Please, can you quote me only one monarchy which does not refer to the religion or the traditions of its country?

Louis-le-14ème.

I think what your referring to sounds more like a theocracy then a monarchy

[Louis14]

Originally Posted by acid_rain3075

I think what your referring to sounds more like a theocracy then a monarchy

The currency of Monaco, "Deo Juvante", refers to God clearly. Are they Legitimists who invented that?

The English anthem "God Save The Queen", refers to God clearly. Are they Legitimists who invented that?

Many people on this forum think that monarchy means beautiful dresses and beautiful jewels! Excuse me, but monarchy has nothing to do with all this.

Louis-le-14ème.

[acid_rain3075]

Originally Posted by Louis14

The currency of Monaco, "Deo Juvante", refers to God clearly. Are they Legitimists who invented that?

The English anthem "God Save The Queen", refers to God clearly. Are they Legitimists who invented that?

Many people on this forum think that monarchy means beautiful dresses and beautiful jewels! Excuse me, but monarchy has nothing to do with all this.

I do not think that royalty or monarchy in general have everything (or anything) to do with cloths and jewelry! I may be young but do not mistake me for ignorant! Yes, religion may at one point been a major issue of monarchies from around the world! But you are forgetting that in the western world there is a consistent effort for separation of church and state! Religion no longer plays a major role in everyday life! We as a society have moved on since the the medieval era! With of course the exception of Her Majesty the Queen of England, the monarch no longer plays a central role in a country's religious identity (and I doubt even she has the clout for that nowadays). But of course, Monarchs from around the world have lost their power so I can not say that their cloths and jewelry haven't come to the forefront. Anyways, what does this have to do with the topic at hand?

[Louis14]

Originally Posted by acid_rain3075

I think what your referring to sounds more like a theocracy then a monarchy

If religion has nothing to do with monarchy, please can you tell us why Princess Caroline asked the Holy Father, the Pope John-Paul II, to legitimate his first three children, in spite of the absence of church wedding?

Louis-le-14ème.

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Louis14

If religion has nothing to do with monarchy, please can you tell us why Princess Caroline asked the Holy Father, the Pope John-Paul II, to legitimate his first three children, in spite of the absence of church wedding?

Louis-le-14ème.

You tell me...

BTW, Monaco is definitely not a member of EU; as far as I know they would like to accede though. And they recently joined the Council of Europe (a completely different organization, but still an important one).

Kisses

[Suonymona]

Originally Posted by Louis14

If religion has nothing to do with monarchy, please can you tell us why Princess Caroline asked the Holy Father, the Pope John-Paul II, to legitimate his first three children, in spite of the absence of church wedding?

Louis-le-14ème.

Caroline didn't ask the Pope to legitimize her three older children. She petitioned for her marriage to Junot to be annulled-meaning in the eyes of the church, it never took place. Neither her ceremony to Junot or to Stefano took place in a church, but they were religiously binding.

By the Junot marriage never having taken place in the eyes of the Church, her marriage to Stefano Casiraghi became her first and thus her children were recognized as 'legal'.

If the annullment had been rejected, Caroline would still (as long as Junot is living) be considered married to him (in the eyes of the Church) and thusly her children by Stefano AND Ernst would be considered illegitimate, born of unrecognized marriages.

Funny how when corrected on one angle, you take another tact Louis. Just why did you join these Forums?

And calling yourself a monarchist and legitamist while arguing over the validity of a 250+year old will is like calling yourself a Marxist-Leninist and saying Communism is bad.

Ann

ETA spelling error

[paca]

Originally Posted by Suonymona

Caroline didn't ask the Pope to legitimize her three older children. She petitioned for her marriage to Junot to be annulled-meaning in the eyes of the church, it never took place. Neither her ceremony to Junot or to Stefano took place in a church, but they were religiously binding.

If I remember correctly Caroline was married in the cathedral to Junot. And I believe they actually walked back to the palace (at least that's what the pics seem to suggest). If the ceremony would have been just civil, it would not have been necessary to have an annulment since for the church she wouldn't have been considered married anyways.

[Elspeth]

A person can't be his own older sister, Toledo. That's science fiction.

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Elspeth

A person can't be his own older sister, Toledo. That's science fiction.

I meant Juan Carlos' older...oh...you know :p

Actually, I recall that most of the Borbones have taken the throne from the hands of their older sisters, so Juan Carlos today would have been a very distantly related cousin of whoever would be the actual king or queen.