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  #61  
Old 03-28-2006, 01:15 PM
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Only the stone throwers trying not to slit their wrists on the broken glass Lisele.
That cracked me up - thanks!

As paca has already pointed out, this Will has no bearing on today's Monaco. There is a Constitution in place and it clearly shows the line of succession.

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The exclusion of the eldest son of the current Prince of Monaco would be unprecedented historic and could result in a very grave dynastic quarrel.

Alexandre has the same legitimacy as his back grandmother, the Hereditary Princess Charlotte. WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THIS.
It's not unprecedented. Illegitimate children don't inherit principalities or kingdoms unless under extra-ordinary circumstances.

M. Alexandre does not have the same legitimacy as his great-grandmother. He has not been legitimated and will not be, unless the Prince marries Ms. Coste. And I'm bettin' on hell freezin' before that happens. When Princess Charolette was born, it was still possible for a child to be adopted and declared the heir. It is no longer legal to do that.

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In one respect, the 2002 rules are more restrictive than the previous succession law. Under the old rules, the reigning prince could adopt an heir who would succeed if the prince died without legitimate biological children. Prince Albert could have adopted one of his nephews as his heir, or even an unrelated person. That option no longer exists. Now, if Prince Albert fails to marry and father a legitimate child, the crown will automatically pass to his sister or her children.

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Alexandre is the only direct descendant of the Reigning Prince of Monaco. His status is unique.
Perhaps - perhaps not. It doesn't matter. This child, and any others there might be, is not legitimate and therefore will not be the Prince's heir. Should, God forbid, the Prince die tomorrow, his Sister, the Princess Caroline is his heir - M. Alexandre never enters the equation. Following HRH is M. Andrea, any children he has; if he has none, then his brother; if his brother has no children, then their sister... Read the Constitution - it's quite clear.

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For a lot of Monegasques and French legitimists, the eldest son of the Reigning Prince of Monaco is the heir of the throne of Monaco. They will not give this up.
Then you, and they, are not living in the real world of Constitutional Monarchy.

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All of the above are heirs presumptive; that is, they could be moved down the list if Albert II were to father a child. If Albert's firstborn were a daughter, she would become the first in line, but still an heiress presumptive; on the other hand, his first son would be the heir apparent, who could not be displaced by any future births. Not included in the line of succession are Alexandre Coste, son of Prince Albert II, and Camille Gottlieb, daughter of Princess Stéphanie. This is because they are both illegitimate children and therefore are excluded by Monegasque law (unless legitimized by a hypothetical future marriage between their parents).
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of...egasque_Throne

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I rather think that Prince Albert is going to modify this law to allow his son to be dynaste.

Otherwise, I do not see why he would have said to Larry King that "he will have to review this".
There is nothing to be reviewed. It was a polite way to get Mr. King off a topic he didn't want to discuss.

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For the French Legitimists, *Monseigneur Louis de Bourbon*, the Head of House of Bourbon-Anjou-Spain, must be the King of Spain.
Oh good lord... And you all have gotten far with that one, haven't you?

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It's His Most Serene Highest Prince Albert II who is the ruler of Monaco, and it's his descendants who will succeed him.
Legitimate descendants. If he has them. Until then, HRH the Princess Caroline is the next in line.

http://www.monaco.gouv.mc/Dataweb/Go...F?OpenDocument
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  #62  
Old 03-28-2006, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Laura Elizabeth
Oh good lord... And you all have gotten far with that one, haven't you?
My thoughts exactly...besides every time a Bourbon pops his head up in France, doesn't he seem to lose it?
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  #63  
Old 03-28-2006, 06:11 PM
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Good on you Laura.

Brava pink!

Ann
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  #64  
Old 03-28-2006, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Louis14
It's His Most Serene Highest Prince Albert II who is the ruler of Monaco, and it's his descendants who will succeed him.

It's so in Monaco since the ancient time. It will not change.

Legitimists guarantee monarchic rules. Without them, there would be no more monarchy in the world and we would not be on this forum talking about monarchy.

Louis-le-14ème
Some things needs to evolve to keep up with the times.

Speaking about legimists in ancient Monaco vs modern Monaco, you do know the Grimaldis are that in name only, right? Rainier's grandfather was adopted by the prince after his British wife ran off with a german officer and came back pregnant. That's common knowledge and the adopted child was recognized as a Grimaldi.

Same thing with the Romanovs, in name only. The most accurate candidate to the paternity of Czar Paul (Catherine the Great's son) was an aristocrat named Saltikov, not Czar Peter III.

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Originally Posted by pinklady1991
My thoughts exactly...besides every time a Bourbon pops his head up in France, doesn't he seem to lose it?
That's funny, and yet so true!
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  #65  
Old 03-28-2006, 11:49 PM
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Maybe the people of Monaco just don't want this boy to rule them. Don't they, not us have the right to decide who runs their country? They don't want Albert's illegitimate kids coming in to rule their country. I believe Prince Rainier knew Albert had these problems and that's why he changed the constitution to make it so that Eric Coste and whoever else out there did not deny his first born, Princess Caroline, her birth right and that of her children. Thank goodness for that man.
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  #66  
Old 03-29-2006, 12:01 AM
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You hit a nerve there, Laviollette. Monaco is not just a selected group of family members doing photo ops here and there. It's also a mega business empire, there must be advisors behind close doors telling the family what is best for the business-nation called Monaco. This is not a cutsy Hollywood movie where the street smart valley girl finds that Dad has a kingdom and is now all hers.
In the real world is more like the series The Sopranos. One of the most interesting articles on how the underworld controls Monaco's issues was on the magazine Vanity Fair (December 2000?) discussing the death of Caroline's husband and what happened afterward. That's why I think Albert is walking a dangerous line and making angry the wrong kind of people not just with his antics but with his attemps to clean up the Principality's image. Albert's illegitimate son inheriting everything is more than an inspiring Hollywood moment. I doubt it will ever happen because with the kid comes the mom. She might be a good person, but can anyone imagine he as regent if Albert ends up dead before the kid is adult? Anyone have any doubts Caroline, Ernst and Stephanie will do a coup like Rainier's sister attempted on him and Grace back in the 50's?
There is too much money involved to place it in the hands of a former mistress instead of a member of the princely family of Monaco. The kid and his mother remain as outsiders looking in. And that's the ugly reality of it all.
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  #67  
Old 03-29-2006, 12:13 AM
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Any involvement in the death of Stefano Casiraghi by the "underworld" are unproven rumours and Vanity Fair is hardly a reliable source since they deal in celebrity gossip and never have anything nice to say about anyone. They're always looking for "scandal." Albert happens to be walking the right line in trying to clean up the financial image of MC and rid the principality of shady people. The fact is that it is not just MC who are now falling in line with ethics regarding money laundering and other crimes such as these. Other small countries like Andorra and the Cayman Islands are closing their doors on the "wrong kind of people" and their dirty money.
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  #68  
Old 03-29-2006, 12:18 AM
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When I say the people of Monaco I mean the native Monegasques, all 7,000 of them, who have a right to decide who rules their country and not every woman's child that Albert has slept with.
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  #69  
Old 03-29-2006, 12:22 AM
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Monaco is a business nation, in the end, money and who has it rules the day. And Albert messing up with the shaddy people that rely on Monaco's banks and business is the fastest way for Caroline to inherit it all, regardless if she wants it or not.
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  #70  
Old 03-29-2006, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toledo
Monaco is a business nation, in the end, money and who has it rules the day.
But that's their business and not anyone else's in the US, France or wherever. Nobody can tell a country or a business or a family who's going to control them or their destiny.
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  #71  
Old 03-29-2006, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Toledo
Monaco is a business nation, in the end, money and who has it rules the day. And Albert messing up with the shaddy people that rely on Monaco's banks and business is the fastest way for Caroline to inherit it all, regardless if she wants it or not.
Who says Caroline is going to tolerate shady people who, according to you and Vanity Fair, killed her husband? Bottom line is Eric Coste or any other non-legitimate child is not going to rule Monaco or any other monarchy as that has not happened since William the Conquerer in 1066. Btw, King William I had 10 children and none of them succeeded him to the British throne; they were all illegitimate.
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  #72  
Old 03-29-2006, 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Louis14
It's His Most Serene Highest Prince Albert II who is the ruler of Monaco, and it's his descendants who will succeed him.
Yes, Albert is the ruler of Monaco, but he has no legitimate heir to speak of! Caroline, on the other hand, has 4! And Stephanie has 2!
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  #73  
Old 03-29-2006, 02:00 AM
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I personally think it would be cool is Albert's child could be groomed for the role of Prince, but since he is not being raised in Monaco, I don't see that happening. Oh well. . .
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  #74  
Old 03-29-2006, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Toledo
You hit a nerve there, Laviollette. Monaco is not just a selected group of family members doing photo ops here and there. It's also a mega business empire, there must be advisors behind close doors telling the family what is best for the business-nation called Monaco. This is not a cutsy Hollywood movie where the street smart valley girl finds that Dad has a kingdom and is now all hers.
In the real world is more like the series The Sopranos. One of the most interesting articles on how the underworld controls Monaco's issues was on the magazine Vanity Fair (December 2000?) discussing the death of Caroline's husband and what happened afterward. That's why I think Albert is walking a dangerous line and making angry the wrong kind of people not just with his antics but with his attemps to clean up the Principality's image. Albert's illegitimate son inheriting everything is more than an inspiring Hollywood moment. I doubt it will ever happen because with the kid comes the mom. She might be a good person, but can anyone imagine he as regent if Albert ends up dead before the kid is adult? Anyone have any doubts Caroline, Ernst and Stephanie will do a coup like Rainier's sister attempted on him and Grace back in the 50's?
There is too much money involved to place it in the hands of a former mistress instead of a member of the princely family of Monaco. The kid and his mother remain as outsiders looking in. And that's the ugly reality of it all.

Your analysis of the Monaco situation seems to me interesting.

We sincerely think that Alexandre could be the monarch who will bring peace to Monaco, far from the quarrels and the internal fights, which do not finish anymore.

Louis-le-14ème
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  #75  
Old 03-29-2006, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by BurberryBrit
I personally think it would be cool is Albert's child could be groomed for the role of Prince, but since he is not being raised in Monaco, I don't see that happening. Oh well. . .

We think that Alexandre will be raised in Monaco.

It's not a question to take him from his mother, but to give him a princely education which is appropriate for its row. A compromise should be found between his parents.


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  #76  
Old 03-29-2006, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Louis14
We sincerely think that Alexandre could be the monarch who will bring peace to Monaco, far from the quarrels and the internal fights, which do not finish anymore.

Louis-le-14ème
yes, he is MCs own personal messiah Can we pls continue to live in the real world?
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  #77  
Old 03-29-2006, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by paca
yes, he is MCs own personal messiah Can we pls continue to live in the real world?
yes please!
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  #78  
Old 03-29-2006, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Laura Elizabeth
There is a Constitution in place and it clearly shows the line of succession.
I think you'll find that 'Legitimists' don't believe in Constitutions. Or Parliaments. Or the 'Will of the People'.
(see Charles I and James II, and for French Legitimists, the comte de Chambord).

Case in point: our Legitimist colleague would gladly overturn (or ignore) the Constitution of Monaco in favour of a clause in a will made in 1454.
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  #79  
Old 03-29-2006, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Warren
Case in point: our Legitimist colleague would gladly overturn (or ignore) the Constitution of Monaco in favour of a clause in a will made in 1454.
Yes I think he might want that! I think thats the problem! This will was made in 1454, times have changed! And not mention that new laws have been put into place! And of course there is constitution now! Countries are not usually run by the say of some one from 6 centuries ago, but by their current rulers (and those of the recent past!)
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  #80  
Old 03-29-2006, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Laviollette
Who says Caroline is going to tolerate shady people who, according to you and Vanity Fair, killed her husband? Bottom line is Eric Coste or any other non-legitimate child is not going to rule Monaco or any other monarchy as that has not happened since William the Conquerer in 1066. Btw, King William I had 10 children and none of them succeeded him to the British throne; they were all illegitimate.
William the Conqueror? As the popular saying goes, are we confusing apples with oranges? a cat for a rabbit? Or, in the case of French-Italian Monaco and Medieval Dane-Anglo-Saxon-Norman England, champagne for beer?
Since we are getting further away let me bring it back by subject association, Darwin's theory of evolution not only is applicable to genetics but to everything in life. In order to survive you must change as the enviroment around you changes. Same applies to four legged creatures and us, the two legged ones. Same applies to large and small business, corporations, family life, society, government, nations. We can't keep life in a time capsule as the world outside changes and thus, the medieval rules of Monaco or any country can't be put into practice in the modern world and expect citizens to live by them.

Thanks to Monaco's far sigthed Princes, that little spot on the planet has survived since they devised in the 19th century the idea that a casino would be good for the economy. That somehow compensated the great loss of territory and property Monaco had at the time of the French revolution. When the princedom was shrunk to the current size and the Grimaldis lost a lot of their belongings. Darwin would be proud of Monaco's evolution to survive because the Princes adapted to the changes around them as fast as they were able to. So did most of the monarchies that survived the two World wars.

And now, as the other expression goes, Albert is 'rocking the boat'. Just for example, Stephanie's antics do not affect Monaco the way Albert's antics do. She does not control the finances, he does. And where there is a lot of money involved, and we are talking billions, there is a lot of interested third parties that won't like Albert to be making too much noise and mixing his personal life with the finances of this mini business empire.

Enter the Coste family. Not just Nicole but all her kids, her own family and her ex-husband. She is not going to be in charge of getting her hands into all that money and power no more than Stephanie (and her men) would be allowed to do it either. If the kid becomes heir, which won't happen, she will be there pulling the strings and so will anyone associated with her past and present.

Prince Rainier saw the mess that would happen after his death and started changing things around to protect Monaco and his family, and protect Albert from himself and his women. His last will says it all. Albert got the country and became financial guardian of his young sister and Caroline (the most brilliant one of the lot) got almost half of the fortune since Rainier knew she can handle both money and business. Caroline is the new rock of Gibraltar on that family. The brains (and beauty) behind the throne. She has Rainier's brains and dignified style and Grace's beauty all rolled over in a Channel suit. And she is Albert's Heir, and after her is Andrea, whose surname will change to Grimaldi according to tradition.

And seems the power that be that control Monaco's economy know that well, I don't see Nicole Coste entering any Rose Ball event as the grande dame of Monaco any time soon. Nor her son, the real innocent victim in all this mess Albert and Nicole brought all to themselves.
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