The will of Lord John Grimaldi of Monaco (1454)

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Louis14

the 2002 threaty signed by the two countries which allows Monaco to be a sovereign principality, specifies that in return Monaco must put his laws in accordance with the French politics. This threaty too is a real fact.

No Louis, it doesn't specify that. What it does specify is Monaco is required to exercise its sovereignty in complete conformity with the political, military, naval and economic interests of France. If we accepted your argument that Monaco law must be in accordance with French politics, then Monaco would be a republic with a president as Head of State.

[Louis14]

Originally Posted by Warren

No Louis, it doesn't specify that. What it does specify is Monaco is required to exercise its sovereignty in complete conformity with the political, military, naval and economic interests of France. If we accepted your argument that Monaco law must be in accordance with French politics, then Monaco would be a republic with a president as Head of State.

Monaco is not a Republic and I hope, will never be. Monaco is a Principality ruled by a Sovereign Prince, but his sovereignty is supervised by France, even if the 2002 treaty is less restrictive than the 1918 one.

If you prefer to use the diplomatic term of "political interests", then let's use it. Laws voted by the French Parliament relating to total equality between all the children are part of the "political interests" of France. It acts at the same time of the domestic and international policy of France. France is considered by most of EU members as the country of the Human Rights and the leader of these questions of society.

Let's hope Monaco will "exercise its sovereignty in complete conformity" with these laws.

Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.

Originally Posted by BurberryBrit

But Louis, why would PA say they were not in the line of succession if by law they were? And does Monaco really have to consult with France?

I think that PA's answer is a political answer of a Head of State.

I do not know about the US law but under the French law, all children are legitimate heirs of theirs parents. The concept of "illegitimate child" was abolished from the French law. So, the French law authorizes Alexandre to bear the name of Grimaldi and to raise the noble titles and the coat of arms of his father. All the noble titles hold by PA, except the one of Prince of Monaco, are French titles.


The 2002 Treaty makes clear that the means of defense of France and Monaco are similar, but that the two territories are distinct and separate. In return, Monaco will regularly consult with France to make sure that its actions are in accordance with the interests of French politics, economics, security and defense.

Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.

[Grace]

International law is a little more complex than that: prior 2002 Monaco was not even considered a fully indipendent State, but now, after the Constitutional change it is and has the majority of the prerogatives of a Sovereign State. It still has to take France into account for decisions of international relations, but is quite free as regards domestic policy.
BTW if you really want to be the defensor of human rights, the equality if men and women should force all Monarchies to abolish male precedence...I say let's put Caroline on the throne! First born and as much a Grimaldi as her brother!

Anyway, please, let's try to be realistic: how many people in Monaco or France care if Alex or Jazmin will get on the throne? And what power do they have on this matter? None. And what power do we have? Even less. It might be nice to speculate, but keeping in mind the difference between theory and reality. In a way or another the Family will put on the Throne whomever they choose, and I'm pretty sure everything was settled once and for all before Rainier died (and thank God, as he seemed to have more brains than the rest of the Family put together...)

[Louis14]

Originally Posted by Grace

International law is a little more complex than that: prior 2002 Monaco was not even considered a fully indipendent State, but now, after the Constitutional change it is and has the majority of the prerogatives of a Sovereign State. It still has to take France into account for decisions of international relations, but is quite free as regards domestic policy.
BTW if you really want to be the defensor of human rights, the equality if men and women should force all Monarchies to abolish male precedence...I say let's put Caroline on the throne! First born and as much a Grimaldi as her brother!

Anyway, please, let's try to be realistic: how many people in Monaco or France care if Alex or Jazmin will get on the throne? And what power do they have on this matter? None. And what power do we have? Even less. It might be nice to speculate, but keeping in mind the difference between theory and reality. In a way or another the Family will put on the Throne whomever they choose, and I'm pretty sure everything was settled once and for all before Rainier died (and thank God, as he seemed to have more brains than the rest of the Family put together...)

If nobody cares about this in France and in Monaco, then why does it seem to disturb you so much as soon as one speaks about it? I am a French and I know the French opinion on this question.

Thank you for your advise but I wish to keep my freedom of thought, I am not a follower of the single thought.

Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.

[Grace]

I'll tell you clearly why it annoys me that we go round and round again on this subject: if you just stated your wishes, or opinions on the future (like "I hope Albert will change the Constitution so that Alex can be his Heir", or "I hope Albert marries Nicole so that Alex can be legitimized") I would have absolutely No problem becauseI totally believe in freedom of thought and of speech. What bothers me is that you tend to "bend" the facts and the Constitutional theories to prove your point, so each time you post, people think they got the whole thing wrong, and other people feel the need to rectify what you stated. When you say that Monaco has to adopt and respect French legislation, or that Monaco is a member of EU, etc. you just change facts to back up your opinions.
For months we've been posting the same things again and again, and whatever the French public opinion thinks (assuming they had any power on these things, they seemed more interested in CPE anyway) nothing has changed...

To summarize, what bothers me is not legitimate opinions, but "manipulated" facts. Hope I haven't offended you, because I really didn't mean to, but that's how I feel...

Kisses

[Louis14]

Originally Posted by Grace

I'll tell you clearly why it annoys me that we go round and round again on this subject: if you just stated your wishes, or opinions on the future (like "I hope Albert will change the Constitution so that Alex can be his Heir", or "I hope Albert marries Nicole so that Alex can be legitimized") I would have absolutely No problem becauseI totally believe in freedom of thought and of speech. What bothers me is that you tend to "bend" the facts and the Constitutional theories to prove your point, so each time you post, people think they got the whole thing wrong, and other people feel the need to rectify what you stated. When you say that Monaco has to adopt and respect French legislation, or that Monaco is a member of EU, etc. you just change facts to back up your opinions.
For months we've been posting the same things again and again, and whatever the French public opinion thinks (assuming they had any power on these things, they seemed more interested in CPE anyway) nothing has changed...

To summarize, what bothers me is not legitimate opinions, but "manipulated" facts. Hope I haven't offended you, because I really didn't mean to, but that's how I feel...

Kisses

Dear Princess,

This forum is a democratic place.
I respect your opinion, thank you to respect mine.

Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.

[Elspeth]

Grace has already said that she respects your opinion. Her objection is to the way you tend to present your opinions as though they were irrefutable facts.

[Louis14]

Here is the link to the French original version of the 2002 Treaty signed by France and Monaco.
Free to everyone to translate it in order to form his own opinion about the real nature of France/Monaco relations.



http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/WAspad...o=MAEJ0530100D



Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.

[Tosca]

In a way or another the Family will put on the Throne whomever they choose, and I'm pretty sure everything was settled once and for all before Rainier died (and thank God, as he seemed to have more brains than the rest of the Family put together...)[/quote

]

Or, maybe, he learned something by personal experience...
Some years ago I happened to read an article on a mag - actually I cannot recall if it was "OGGI" or "Gente" - that, citing "Paris Match" as a source, was about a "supposed" love child of Prince Rainier. According to the mag, Rainier was romantically involved with a girl of Marchais, where the Grimaldis own a castle, long before he got to know Princess Grace.
Later this girl got married, and her son received her husband's surname.
This man is said to bear a startling resemblance with Prince Rainier, for this reason he's been nicknamed "prince" or "monseigneur" by his friends and colleagues.
The article had no pictures of this guy, so I'm wondering if he really exists. Has any of our French readers heard about this story?

[rosalee]

Why does everyone in present day have a problem with Eric? I think some part of it was included in the media calling him "The Black Prince". Princess Charlotte (great-grandmother) was herself not a white woman. She was of black origin herself, from Algeria, colour watered down only by her princely white father.

[rosalee]

Originally Posted by Tosca

]

Or, maybe, he learned something by personal experience...
Some years ago I happened to read an article on a mag - actually I cannot recall if it was "OGGI" or "Gente" - that, citing "Paris Match" as a source, was about a "supposed" love child of Prince Rainier. According to the mag, Rainier was romantically involved with a girl of Marchais, where the Grimaldis own a castle, long before he got to know Princess Grace.
Later this girl got married, and her son received her husband's surname.
This man is said to bear a startling resemblance with Prince Rainier, for this reason he's been nicknamed "prince" or "monseigneur" by his friends and colleagues.
The article had no pictures of this guy, so I'm wondering if he really exists. Has any of our French readers heard about this story?

I have also heard this story a few times. I think once they even referred to him as "Lord Monaco" since he looks 'just like' Prince Rainier.

Was this the son of Gisele Pascale? I cannot recall now why he chose to not marry her in the end after 6 yrs of courtship?

R.

[rosalee]

Is it not a bit inhuman to somehow validate that the children of a new wife PA would have would somehow be more valuable than the children he already has?

[Next Star]

Okay lt's get straight to the point no out of wedlock children of any member of the Monaco princely family male or female can inherit the throne.His or her parents must be legally married for this to happen.It has been said numerous times the laws in France do not abide in Monaco being that both are soverign states.The line of succession will not change until someone was a new child in wedlock or marries the father or mother of a unwedlock child and then that child takes his or her place in the line of succesion to the throne.

[kbear]

Originally Posted by Louis14

You seem to forget that Monaco is a christian catholic monarchy which has nothing to do with the festive theatre or the businesses bank that you describe.

You seem to forget that one does not change a rule of succession, six centuries old, for personal reasons or to support one of his daughter's descendance.

You seem to forget that monarchy is the exaltation of royal blood; and that all that rises from crowned person of the Reigning Prince is inevitably crowned. According to you, what is the use of the mass of enthronement?

You seem to forget that Monaco has a government whose role is to manage the businesses of the State of Monaco.

You seem to forget that the Reigning Prince Albert II does not ignore the reasons which justified the constitutional modification of 2002.

You seem to forget that the new French Law on the filiation banish for ever the notion of "illegitimate child", and that Alexandre was born in France.

Which credibility can one grant to a modification which excludes the natural children from the inheritance order, made by a Prince whose mother was herself a natural child?

Louis-le-14ème

We remember Rainer put Monaco first and did what was necessary to ensure it remained independent and flourishing.


loved this thread people just read the entire thing. Monaco survives because it adapts and if necessary to ensure it survives they will shove me or you on the throne. They have bent the laws of succession that are absolute in other reigning familys so often in their history, when it was necessary to continue and frankly I love them for it. Monaco is a state in its own right. It may have a special relationship with France as Australia has with the kiwis but its a state. And frankly if the French wanted kings/princes it shouldnt have bloody beheaded them! So BUTT OUT. I cant see the illigetimate children ruling race is not a factor there simply birth and parenting but if it becomes necessary dont worry they will.

[LadyLove]

Yes, Eric is currently the only direct offspring of Albert. However, the next legitimate heir to the throne is Caroline, following by Andrea, Pierre, Charlotte, Alexandra, Stephanie, Louis and finally Pauline.


OK I have a question. Is Alexandra a legitimate heir? From what I heard she is being raised as a protestant in order so that she can be considered in line for the British throne. Wouldn't she have to be a catholic to be able to inherit the throne? Or is that fine as long as she would later convert? Or is that not even relevant?

[oxygen]

Yes, Eric is currently the only direct offspring of Albert.

Albert also has a daughter named Jazmin, but she too is "illegitimate."

I'm pretty sure Alexandra is considered to be a legitimate heir because she was born within the confines of marriage. Though she is being raised protestant should the need for her to rule occur she could convert to Catholicism.

[Bones]

I think it is also important to remember that since Albert's two children have been born out of wedlock and are raised by their mothers he does not play a *major* role in their lives (nor do I think their mothers intended him to really). This should be considered as a practical reason for their exclusion from the succession. Most here seem to agree that Rainier III was good and able monarch. I would think that was largely possible because Prince Louis II had spent a good amount of time preparing him for the job so he would be as ready for it as he could when it came.

In similar fashion I think Rainier tried to see to it that Albert II had as much preparation as possible taking over the job (mostly a business and economics understanding) and in that regard I think he was successful. Albert could not do this with his illegitimate children nor could their mothers have been expecting (reasonably) a lasting relationship to come from a passing fling. I think they already got what they most wanted and reasonably expected which is a share of the Grimaldi family fortune.

Monaco is also an officially Catholic monarchy and this has been a problem for the succession in the past because of the strict laws requiring legitimacy. Albert would probably need to marry the mother of the child in question and that would obviously never happen as Albert has been open and honest about never wanting a long term relationship with either of them and more or less being tricked into the fatherhood part (the old, 'I took the pill, I swear' line) so I don't think either of them really expected marriage and a princess job as a possibility (though I'm sure they may have had dreams that their chance was at hand to trap the grand prize).

I think Princess Caroline would make a fine sovereign for Monaco, despite her early troubles she's proven to be a real trooper after the tragic loss of her mother. as it stands now it's going to be her job anyway. Albert would have to marry, have legitimate offspring and hopefully instill in his heir some good business sense and hopefully a little more common sense that His Serene Highness has displayed (may God save him).

**addition: didn't notice where you were from oxygen. Is it still humid up there in Houston? ;-)

[Zonk]

Bones...as Albert's children are raised (somewhat) out of the media's eyes...let's not assume that he does not play a "major" role in their life. Yes, their mother's have primary and physical custody....but we don't know what goes on in their lives 24/7.

In addition, we are not going to go down the road where we get into a tiresome discussion on whether or not either woman tried to trap Albert into marriage. I know you are fairly new to the board, but we have gone down this road before and its not pretty.

This is highly speculative.

[Bones]

My comments were based only on taking Albert for his word as to what happened. I also know from news articles and photos that he has been involved in the lives of his children, I certainly did not mean to imply that he has not, he has spent some time with them and has made generous provision for their care and education, my point simply was that as they do reside with their mothers he is not in a position to groom them for the throne as he was even if that were not a legal impossibility.