The will of Lord John Grimaldi of Monaco (1454) - Page 10

acid_rain3075 · #**181** 04-09-2006, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis14

My arguments are based on real facts.
If you prefer to continue to dream, please continue to dream by thinking that Monaco, a micro-state wedged in France, is a really sovereign state.

<unnecessary insult deleted - Elspeth>

Louis-le-14ème.

A dream? I'm not sure if you realize this but Monaco is a REAL sovereign state and to say otherwise is absolutely ridiculous! That's like saying that Vatican City (pop. 1,000), Liechtenstein (pop. 33,400), Andorra (pop. 69,800), San Marino (pop. 28,000) are not sovereign states! May I add that that list goes on! Just because it's small and wedged into another country doesn't mean anything! If Monaco isn't a REAL nation then please explain to me why is it a member of the UN? And the Council of Europe? So, please enlighten me with your absolutely pathetic argument on how Monaco is not a sovereign state!

Laviollette · #**182** 04-09-2006, 03:20 PM

The problem with MC, imo, is that it attracts the bazaar such as predatory women, fame seekers, gold diggers, princess wanna bes, claims of paternity, 15th century legitimists who deny the French Revolution and its Republic, etc. Although Princess Grace brought glamour to and awareness of the principality, she also put it in a permanent, bazaar state of ugly celebrity; not her fault, that's just the way it has turned out. Hopefully if and when PA does finally get married she might be a woman who has a quiet and dignified nature like the prince and who is not a celebrity. I think it would bring some much needed quiet and respectability back to MC. jmo.

:)

teense · #**183** 04-09-2006, 03:30 PM

The prince really does needs a lady who behaves with dignity.

acid_rain3075 · #**184** 04-09-2006, 03:36 PM

But he also needs a woman who has some sort of celebrity fame or something, the way Grace did! Without Grace, Monaco wouldn't be the same today! She brought fame when there wasn't any before! It brought the good and the bad, but unfortunately for Monaco, it needs it to survive (imo)!

Laviollette · #**185** 04-09-2006, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acid_rain3075

But he also needs a woman who has some sort of celebrity fame or something, the way Grace did! Without Grace, Monaco wouldn't be the same today! She brought fame when there wasn't any before! It brought the good and the bad, but unfortunately for Monaco, it needs it to survive (imo)!

No, no, no. Enough celebrity. Enough of the bazaar! None of the other princes of Europe married celebrities except Felipe. Liechenstein has the wonderful Princess Sophie and she is doing a wonderful job. The country is doing very well financially but also the Princely Family has a respectable public image. No one's talking about a 15th century will. There are no TR's, NC's, etc. Tourism will increase in MC with a new princess even if she's not a celebrity. Princess Diana was not a celebrity. The public grew to love her. The tragedy of her life was -- celebrity. Fame and celebrity are not everything.

acid_rain3075 · #**186** 04-09-2006, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acid_rain3075

A dream? I'm not sure if you realize this but Monaco is a REAL sovereign state and to say otherwise is absolutely ridiculous! That's like saying that Vatican City (pop. 1,000), Liechtenstein (pop. 33,400), Andorra (pop. 69,800), San Marino (pop. 28,000) are not sovereign states! May I add that that list goes on! Just because it's small and wedged into another country doesn't mean anything! If Monaco isn't a REAL nation then please explain to me why is it a member of the UN? And the Council of Europe? So, please enlighten me with your absolutely pathetic argument on how Monaco is not a sovereign state!

I also forgot to mention The Sovereign Order of Malta. It has it's own government and everything, and is the size of a three story building. But is also considered a sovereign state!

Louis14 · #**187** 04-09-2006, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acid_rain3075

A dream? I'm not sure if you realize this but Monaco is a REAL sovereign state and to say otherwise is absolutely ridiculous! That's like saying that Vatican City (pop. 1,000), Liechtenstein (pop. 33,400), Andorra (pop. 69,800), San Marino (pop. 28,000) are not sovereign states! May I add that that list goes on! Just because it's small and wedged into another country doesn't mean anything! If Monaco isn't a REAL nation then please explain to me why is it a member of the UN? And the Council of Europe? So, please enlighten me with your absolutely pathetic argument on how Monaco is not a sovereign state!

For the case you do not know it, please learn that Andorra is a co-principality ruled by two co-princes (the French chief of state and the Spanish bishop of Urgel).

I'm sorry to correct you, but I don't want to hurt you.

Louis-le-14ème.

acid_rain3075 · #**188** 04-09-2006, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis14

For the case you do not know it, please learn that Andorra is a co-principality ruled by two co-princes (the French chief of state and the Spanish bishop of Urgel).

I'm sorry to correct you, but I don't want to hurt you.

Louis-le-14ème.

Hurt me? What are you talking about? That was not the point I was making! And frankly I don't really care who rules Andorra! I know who rules it so why should know more of it! I mentioned it because it like Monaco it is small and wedged in between two countries! And yet it has managed to remain independent despite anything else! And not to mention the fact that yes the french President and this Spanish bishop may indeed be the chief of state, but Andorra is a parliamentary democracy!

Louis14 · #**189** 04-09-2006, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grace

Of course I didn't take it as an insult, everything is fine, but why should an article of a Constitution have a different meaning in Consitutional Monarchy and in a Republic?
Anyway, according to your standards, that disregard the will of the Pope for religious legitimacy, the Grimaldi Family is extinguished after Caro, for lack of heirs.

It's the major weakness of the current Monegasque constitution in which one finds articles which are contradicted! These weaknesses can be exploited by all the potential heirs.

Louis-le-14ème.

Grace · #**190** 04-09-2006, 06:31 PM

The weakness only exists, in my opinion, if you chose to accept some articles and simply disregard some others. If you take the Constitution as a whole, you have a pretty normal succession line, without many objections by the subjects (the only ones whose opinion really counts; if you wish to deny Monaco's international subjectivity, remember also the French people don't really care about Monaco succession): Caroline, her kids, Stephanie, her kids, so the discendents of Prince Rainier and Princess Grace are there to assure the continuity of the Grimaldi.
You're left with 10, 20, 100 people top who might questions what's going on on the Rocher without any legal or political title, and who don't have any kind of power on what happens in international politics.
We can debate for centuries here, and it might be funny, frustrating, interesting at times, and still we'll have absolutely no influence on the destiny of France or Monaco;even if we all agree with you (and mind you I don't on many levels) this would have virtually no effect. Democracy has a peculiarity: like it or not, majority rules, and the majority of Monaco subjects are with Albert, Caro, Steph! I guess we will have this forum for a very long time!

Kisses

pinklady1991 · #**191** 04-09-2006, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laviollette

The problem with MC, imo, is that it attracts the bazaar such as predatory women, fame seekers, gold diggers, princess wanna bes, claims of paternity, 15th century legitimists who deny the French Revolution and its Republic, etc. Although Princess Grace brought glamour to and awareness of the principality, she also put it in a permanent, bazaar state of ugly celebrity; not her fault, that's just the way it has turned out. Hopefully if and when PA does finally get married she might be a woman who has a quiet and dignified nature like the prince and who is not a celebrity. I think it would bring some much needed quiet and respectability back to MC. jmo.

:)

The rogues are always so much more interesting...

That being said, the prince and princess should be amused by but not a party to the eccentricities of their subjects. JMO.

Louis14 · #**192** 04-09-2006, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acid_rain3075

Hurt me? What are you talking about? That was not the point I was making! And frankly I don't really care who rules Andorra! I know who rules it so why should know more of it! I mentioned it because it like Monaco it is small and wedged in between two countries! And yet it has managed to remain independent despite anything else! And not to mention the fact that yes the french President and this Spanish bishop may indeed be the chief of state, but Andorra is a parliamentary democracy!

Monaco has no armed forces.
The defence of Monaco is a responsibility of France. Andorra is in the same case. Do you think that Monaco is really sovereign?

Louis-le-14ème.

Grace · #**193** 04-09-2006, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis14

Monaco has no armed forces.
The defence of Monaco is a responsibility of France. Andorra is in the same case. Do you think that Monaco is really sovereign?

Louis-le-14ème.

For the record, having an Army is not one of the conditions of sovereignty.

Louis14 · #**194** 04-09-2006, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laviollette

Why don't you care about the purities of the monarchies in Britain, Spain, Norway and others? Because they don't have an African pretender to the throne? Because the bazaar aren't welcome or attracted to those monarchies? Like I said, imo, MC attracts too many crazed followers. Bazaar, totally bazaar.:( Maybe for their own sake they'll correct this celebrity dead end very soon. Only respect will ensure their survival.

French Legitimists are interested in all monarchies, in particular with the Bourbons of Spain, direct descendants of *King of France Louis XIV*.

We think that if the Prince of Asturies does not comply with the Rule of succession which excludes from the inheritance order any heir of the throne of Spain who marries a woman resulting from a non-sovereign House, then the future King of Spain should be Prince Louis de Bourbon, the elder of all the Bourbons of Spain, whose father was excluded from the throne by General Franco for the current King.

Louis-le-14ème.

Laviollette · #**195** 04-09-2006, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis14

French Legitimists are interested in all monarchies, in particular with the Bourbons of Spain, direct descendants of *King of France Louis XIV*.

We think that if the Prince of Asturies does not comply with the Rule of succession which excludes from the inheritance order any heir of the throne of Spain who marries a woman resulting from a non-sovereign House, then the future King of Spain should be Prince Louis de Bourbon, the elder of all the Bourbons of Spain, whose father was excluded from the throne by General Franco for the current King.

Louis-le-14ème.

Perhaps the legitimists will ride into Spain, overthrow democracy and install Prince Louis, whoever he is. But I must warn you, the last time someone tried that the King JC wasn't having it and things didn't work out very well for the unfortunate trouble makers. I'm pretty sure Prince Felipe would act in a similar manner.

**Elspeth** · #**196** 04-09-2006, 11:59 PM

I said to cool things down. Personal insults are against the rules.

This is the second warning in less than 24 hours, and it's the last. If the insults keep up, I'm going to close the thread.

Suonymona · #**197** 04-10-2006, 03:18 AM

Louis is bating people. Ignoring his deliberate (?) ignorance is best.

Ann

Louis14 · #**198** 06-05-2006, 05:58 PM

I think that relations between Alexandre and some members of Grimaldi Princely Family will always be difficult because they are afraid that, as the oldest son of the Sovereign Prince of Monaco, he claims one day the throne of his father.

The concept of "illegitimate child" was abolishes from the French law. Alexandre, who was born in France, is in fact a legitimate heir of his father. The law authorizes him to bear the name Grimaldi and to raise the noble titles and the coat of arms which belong to the inheritance of his father. Almost all the noble titles of the current Grimaldi were transmitted to them by their paternal grandmother, Princess Charlotte, who was herself a natural child. Since the advent of Grimaldi in Monaco, the children born out of the wedding were never excluded from the line of succession.

Alexandre has many supports in Monaco, in France and in the whole world.
We are happy to see that the European press starts to be aligned on the legitimists arguments about the Monegasque line of succession.

Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.

WindsorIII · #**199** 06-05-2006, 06:32 PM

Is it within PA's power to change the laws of succession? I would assume if PR could do it, that PA could also do it.

Also another thing I do not understand, I have read that people say PA could put Jasmine in line for succession bc she her birth came before the law, but Alex could not because he was born after the change in law.

What exactly is the real case here? What can and cannot be done as far as laws of succession go in Monaco?