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  #201  
Old 12-08-2015, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
Doesn't "royal" by definition quite simply mean something like "being a king/queen or closely related to one"?

Imo it often gets mixed up with the term "monarch" and that in the case of P.Albert of Monaco he *is* a monarch, but he isn't a royal?
If he is a "royal" prince or a "noble" prince is up for discussion. From my readings in this subject, offficially, he is not "royalty" as "royalty" denotes descent from a monarch (His/Her Majesty or Imperial Majesty). P Albert is descended from sovereign princes only. So because he is descended from Sovereign Princes/Princessses (when a Hereditary Princess was to inherit the throne, her husband would change is last name to Grimaldi) and not a "His/Her Majesty," he is technically not "royal." But unofficially as "HSH The Sovereign Prince of Monaco" (Head of State of Monaco) and for all intense and purposes, he and his family are considered "royalty," but officially and actually "nobility" (=not descended from a "royal" or "imperial" majesty).
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  #202  
Old 12-08-2015, 11:07 PM
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If he is a "royal" prince or a "noble" prince is up for discussion. From my readings in this subject, offficially, he is not "royalty" as "royalty" denotes descent from a monarch (His/Her Majesty or Imperial Majesty). P Albert is descended from sovereign princes only. So because he is descended from Sovereign Princes/Princessses (when a Hereditary Princess was to inherit the throne, her husband would change is last name to Grimaldi) and not a "His/Her Majesty," he is technically not "royal." But unofficially as "HSH The Sovereign Prince of Monaco" (Head of State of Monaco) and for all intense and purposes, he and his family are considered "royalty," but officially and actually "nobility" (=not descended from a "royal" or "imperial" majesty).
What?

Now you're claiming that Albert isn't a monarch?

I'm just going to use Wikipedia here: "a monarch is the sovereign head of state in a monarchy." Furthermore, "a monarchy is a form of government in which sovereignty is actually or nominally embodied in one or several individual(s) reigning until death or abdication."

By which counts, Monaco is a monarchy and therefore, as the sovereign head of state in Monaco, Albert II is a monarch.

If your definition of a "royalty" is being descended from a monarch (your words) then Albert, being both a monarch and a descendant of other monarchs, is royalty.

Now, going back to Wikipedia, the issue of what is a royal family (and by extension royalty) is a bit more complicated - officially, according to them "a royal family is the immediate family of a king or queen regent, and sometimes his or her extended family" in which case, yes, Albert and his family are not royalty. However, it continues, "in common parlance members of any family which reigns by hereditary right are often referred to as royalty or 'royals.'" Which would qualify Albert II et all as Monaco is a state in which a family reigns by hereditary right. On that same page in the list of current royal families there is a link to Monegasque Princely Family.

Back to why I originally corrected you a couple posts ago - you're claiming that the Monegasque are not "royalty" but rather "nobility" because of their Serene Highness status instead of Royal Highness. Serene Highness isn't a style that is strictly associated with the nobility; in German and Austrian houses it is more strongly associated with nobility (although there are many houses who used the HSH that would likely count as "royal", including Liechtenstein), but Monaco isn't a Germanic state. It's a French one. In France, the HSH was used to denote members of the royal family who weren't the children or grandchildren of the monarch. They were still of the royal family, just more distantly. Within English, of course, the word Serene itself in this context means (again from Wikipedia) "supreme; royal; august; marked by majestic dignity or grandeur; or high or supremely dignified."
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  #203  
Old 12-08-2015, 11:26 PM
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But isn't the Monegasque Princely Family by definition not a 'royal family' or am I interpreting this too literally.
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  #204  
Old 12-09-2015, 01:30 AM
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The Almanach de Gotha page lists the Grimaldi family in the "royal damilies and houses index"
Royal Families and Houses of the World - Index

( Don't know if this page is officially related to the "real" AdG?)
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  #205  
Old 12-09-2015, 02:23 AM
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What?

Now you're claiming that Albert isn't a monarch?

I'm just going to use Wikipedia here: "a monarch is the sovereign head of state in a monarchy." Furthermore, "a monarchy is a form of government in which sovereignty is actually or nominally embodied in one or several individual(s) reigning until death or abdication."

By which counts, Monaco is a monarchy and therefore, as the sovereign head of state in Monaco, Albert II is a monarch.

If your definition of a "royalty" is being descended from a monarch (your words) then Albert, being both a monarch and a descendant of other monarchs, is royalty.

Now, going back to Wikipedia, the issue of what is a royal family (and by extension royalty) is a bit more complicated - officially, according to them "a royal family is the immediate family of a king or queen regent, and sometimes his or her extended family" in which case, yes, Albert and his family are not royalty. However, it continues, "in common parlance members of any family which reigns by hereditary right are often referred to as royalty or 'royals.'" Which would qualify Albert II et all as Monaco is a state in which a family reigns by hereditary right. On that same page in the list of current royal families there is a link to Monegasque Princely Family.

Back to why I originally corrected you a couple posts ago - you're claiming that the Monegasque are not "royalty" but rather "nobility" because of their Serene Highness status instead of Royal Highness. Serene Highness isn't a style that is strictly associated with the nobility; in German and Austrian houses it is more strongly associated with nobility (although there are many houses who used the HSH that would likely count as "royal", including Liechtenstein), but Monaco isn't a Germanic state. It's a French one. In France, the HSH was used to denote members of the royal family who weren't the children or grandchildren of the monarch. They were still of the royal family, just more distantly. Within English, of course, the word Serene itself in this context means (again from Wikipedia) "supreme; royal; august; marked by majestic dignity or grandeur; or high or supremely dignified."
HSH The Prince Albert II of Monaco is not a monarch; he is NOT the "sovereign head of state in a monarchy." What he IS the "Sovereign Prince" or "the ruling prince" of the "Principality of Monaco." Monaco is NOT a monarchy, but a principality. I am disputing he is descended from from monarchs, just not in direct male (and female) lineage that qualifies him to be considered a monarch - his fate in life has brought him in direct familial and hereditary lineage to be The Sovereign Prince of the Principality of Monaco. Also, Monaco is NOT a French state; it is only a French protectorate - the armed forces of France protect Monaco should it become necessary. France does not have voice or input into the ruling of Monaco - that is Albert's duty as The Sovereign Prince of Monaco. If you would have read my post in its entirety, I also stated the Princely Family of Monaco is often referred to as "royalty," although technically they are not royalty. Maybe you should hone your skills on the intracracies of the wording of specific terms and realize unofficially these terms make no difference, but in an official capacity, especially in the world of royalty/nobility/aristocracy, wording makes a huge difference. For instance, if HRH The Prince of Wales 1st wife was still living and not remarried, she would be officially "Diana, Princess of Wales" - with no "HRH" or "The" in her title. While Charles' 2nd wife would be officially, "HRH The Princess of Wales." Officially, Camilla's name is not in her title, "HRH" and "The" - with a capital "T"; not only would be, but is in fact her official title. She is known as "HRH The Duchess of Cornwall" only not offend the memory and legacy of Diana.
I respect your attempts to correct me, I know you mean well, but it is not necessary. When I am wrong, I always correct myself to always become a better educated person. But I am not wrong in this particular situation. Again, thank you.
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  #206  
Old 12-09-2015, 03:15 AM
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Also read that HSH Prince Hans Adam actually "owns" all of the land within the boundaries of his (literally) country of Liechtenstein.
Sorry no - who ever wrote that, has no idea of Liechtenstein. Much of the land is in private hands ... as in Switzerland or Austria or whereever ... Property in Liechtenstein is bought and sold on a regular basis . I know people who own Land there ...
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  #207  
Old 12-09-2015, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
The Almanach de Gotha page lists the Grimaldi family in the "royal damilies and houses index"
Royal Families and Houses of the World - Index

( Don't know if this page is officially related to the "real" AdG?)
Yes it is the 'real' Almanach - and it is the Bible of the european royalty, aristocracy, noble houses etc. - they are never wrong.

Even if Monaco is called a Principality and Liechtenstein is called ein Fürstentum - but as they are ruling houses they are considered 'ebenbürtig' equal to the other royal houses in Europe. And as such they are listed with other monarchie, it is a constitutanal monarchy.
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  #208  
Old 12-09-2015, 04:06 AM
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Yes it is the 'real' Almanach - and it is the Bible of the european royalty, aristocracy, noble houses etc. - they are never wrong.

Even if Monaco is called a Principality and Liechtenstein is called ein Fürstentum - but as they are ruling houses they are considered 'ebenbürtig' equal to the other royal houses in Europe. And as such they are listed with other monarchie, it is a constitutanal monarchy.
Yes, they are principalities equal (or comparable) other European ruling royal houses. I guess I am speaking more of the forms of governments - Monaco and Liechenstein are officially principalities, Luxembourg is a grand duchy, and Great Britain and Belgium are 2 countries that are constitutional monarchies. Maybe email them and they can explain the official differences between them - it is all in the terminology, and placement/spelling of words in the titles, and official forms of government, which has been my point all along. Cannot understand why a few of my fellow posters have gotten so offended over this subject. Again email the 'almanach' and let them explain it all to you. No offense meant to you or to anybody else. Good luck on your research in this subject matter. 😕😒😔
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  #209  
Old 12-09-2015, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
But isn't the Monegasque Princely Family by definition not a 'royal family' or am I interpreting this too literally.
I would say you're interpreting too literally. It's a Princely Family because Monaco is a Principality. Just like it's the Imperial House of Japan (or Japanese Imperial Family), as Japan is an Empire. It's more denoting that it's a different type of monarchy than not a royal family.
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  #210  
Old 12-09-2015, 10:46 AM
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HSH The Prince Albert II of Monaco is not a monarch; he is NOT the "sovereign head of state in a monarchy." What he IS the "Sovereign Prince" or "the ruling prince" of the "Principality of Monaco." Monaco is NOT a monarchy, but a principality. I am disputing he is descended from from monarchs, just not in direct male (and female) lineage that qualifies him to be considered a monarch - his fate in life has brought him in direct familial and hereditary lineage to be The Sovereign Prince of the Principality of Monaco. Also, Monaco is NOT a French state; it is only a French protectorate - the armed forces of France protect Monaco should it become necessary. France does not have voice or input into the ruling of Monaco - that is Albert's duty as The Sovereign Prince of Monaco. If you would have read my post in its entirety, I also stated the Princely Family of Monaco is often referred to as "royalty," although technically they are not royalty. Maybe you should hone your skills on the intracracies of the wording of specific terms and realize unofficially these terms make no difference, but in an official capacity, especially in the world of royalty/nobility/aristocracy, wording makes a huge difference. For instance, if HRH The Prince of Wales 1st wife was still living and not remarried, she would be officially "Diana, Princess of Wales" - with no "HRH" or "The" in her title. While Charles' 2nd wife would be officially, "HRH The Princess of Wales." Officially, Camilla's name is not in her title, "HRH" and "The" - with a capital "T"; not only would be, but is in fact her official title. She is known as "HRH The Duchess of Cornwall" only not offend the memory and legacy of Diana.
I respect your attempts to correct me, I know you mean well, but it is not necessary. When I am wrong, I always correct myself to always become a better educated person. But I am not wrong in this particular situation. Again, thank you.
Again, Albert is still a monarch. I think you've got what monarch means wrong - you seem to think that only Kings and Queens are monarchs, but that's not accurate. A monarch is (from the dictionary) "One who reigns over a state or territory, usually for life and by hereditary right". That describes Albert. That he is a Prince in a Principality doesn't mean he's not a monarch - a Principality is a form of a monarchy, as is a Kingdom, a Grand Duchy, an Empire.

As for Monaco being a French state you misunderstood what I was saying, for which I apologize - I should have been clearer. Yes, Monaco is not at this time a state controlled by the French government. It is, however, a French speaking state, and so using the German definition of HSH is inaccurate. Albert is formally Son Altesse Sérénissime le Prince Albert, Alexander, Louis, Pierre, Prince Souveraign de Monaco. That is the French royal style Son Altesse Sérénissime, not the German noble title Durchlaucht.
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  #211  
Old 12-09-2015, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
It is, however, a French speaking state, and so using the German definition of HSH is inaccurate. Albert is formally Son Altesse Sérénissime le Prince Albert, Alexander, Louis, Pierre, Prince Souveraign de Monaco. That is the French royal style Son Altesse Sérénissime, not the German noble title Durchlaucht.

I've always interpreted Durchlaucht and SAS (HSH) as being the same rank but in two (or three) different language. Is there a difference in rank between them?


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  #212  
Old 12-09-2015, 11:03 AM
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A monarch is not necessarily a royal. The Pope is a monarch, a Sovereign ruler, maybe a dictator even, but he is not royal.
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  #213  
Old 12-09-2015, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
A monarch is not necessarily a royal. The Pope is a monarch, a Sovereign ruler, maybe a dictator even, but he is not royal.

Does that mean that, according to your interpretation,the medieval elected Kings of Scandinavia and even later the Kings of Poland wasn't royal?


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  #214  
Old 12-09-2015, 11:59 AM
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I've always interpreted Durchlaucht and SAS (HSH) as being the same rank but in two (or three) different language. Is there a difference in rank between them?


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Durchlaucht comes from the latin word Serenitas. So it is correctly translated as "Your Serene (Highness)". In older times this form was also used in combination with a royal style: Su Alteza Real la Serenísima y Excelentísima Princesa de Asturias Doña María Luisa de Borbón (Her Royal Highness the Serene and Excellent Princess of Asturias, Doña María Luisa de Bourbon).

Majestät - Majesty
(all reigning European Sovereigns except Luxembourg, Liechtenstein and Monaco)

Königliche Hoheit - Royal Highness
(the Grand-Duke of Luxembourg and children from all reigning European Sovereigns except Liechtenstein and Monaco)

Hoheit - Highness
(former Sovereign Dukes like Mecklenburg or Sachsen-Coburg, or junior Princes like the sons of Prince Joachim of Denmark and some princely Houses)

Durchlaucht - Serene Highness
(heads of princely Houses and -sometimes- children from heads of princely Houses)

Erlaucht - Illustrious Highness
(Sovereign Counts or Counts from the Uradel (eldest nobility))

Hochgeboren - Highborn
(Marquesses, Counts, Viscounts)

Hochgeboren - Highborn
(Barons from the Uradel (eldest nobility))

Hochwohlgeboren - High- and Wellborn
(Barons, Knights, untitled nobility)

Examples:

Ihre Majestät der König von Schweden
(His Majesty The King of Sweden)

Ihre Königliche Hoheit der Prinz von Wales
(His Royal Highness The Prince of Wales)

Ihre Hoheit der Prinz von Ligne
(His Highness the Prince or Ligne)

Ihre Durchlaucht der Erbprinz von und zu Liechtenstein
(His Serene Highness the Hereditary Prince of Liechtenstein)

Ihre Erlaucht der Graf von Neipperg
(His Illustrious Highness the Count of Neipperg)

Der Hochgeboren Frau Gräfin von Merenberg
The Highborn Lady, the Countess of Merenberg

Der Hochwohlgeboren Herrn Freiherr von Weiszäcker
The High- and Wellborn Lord, the Baron von Weiszäcker
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  #215  
Old 12-09-2015, 06:34 PM
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You must be all crazy. This Gwyneth staff is only a rumor.
Exactly, this "THE " order of ranking - and officially that's all there is to it. Unofficially (=in real life) things are done differently. This has been my point all along - some disagree with what I have written and that's okay. We all see this situation differently. I like others to give their opinions and, as far as I concerned, we can disagree with each other. No one should be offended - I am not offended with anybody's opinions and no one should be offended with my opinion. C'est la vie! Actually I enjoy (ed) this discussion and look forward to more in the future.
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  #216  
Old 12-09-2015, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
I've always interpreted Durchlaucht and SAS (HSH) as being the same rank but in two (or three) different language. Is there a difference in rank between them?


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In Germanic realms, HSH was lower than simply HH and was typically associated with the nobility. In France though HSH was higher than HH and was associated with lesser royals.

The whole argument about whether or not the Grimaldis are or are not royals began under the issue of what the HSH means - it's fair to reason that as Monaco is a French speaking country, using the SAS, a protectorate of France, and at one point the Prince of Monaco was a vassal of the King of France, then their HSH takes more from the French definition than the German one.
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Old 12-12-2015, 03:34 AM
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In Germanic realms, HSH was lower than simply HH and was typically associated with the nobility. In France though HSH was higher than HH and was associated with lesser royals.

The whole argument about whether or not the Grimaldis are or are not royals began under the issue of what the HSH means - it's fair to reason that as Monaco is a French speaking country, using the SAS, a protectorate of France, and at one point the Prince of Monaco was a vassal of the King of France, then their HSH takes more from the French definition than the German one.
In that case are the HSH Prince/ss of Liechenstein = to the HSH Prince/ss of Monaco? Thought all HSH's of Europe were on equal footing?
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  #218  
Old 12-12-2015, 03:49 AM
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In Germanic realms, HSH was lower than simply HH and was typically associated with the nobility. In France though HSH was higher than HH and was associated with lesser royals.

[...]
There are no "lesser royals". You are royal or you are not royal. There is not such a difference between France (of Italy, or Austria, or Germany) in the use of the predicate Altesse Sérénissime. The Houses of Monaco, Liechtenstein, Croÿ, Arenberg, De Lobkowicz, Esterhazy, Gonzaga, Thurn und Taxis, Orsini, Visconti, and name these well-souding families, all are pretty comparable. In general the predicate is used "for persons of nobility born into a former sovereign princely House, not being a Kingdom."
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  #219  
Old 12-12-2015, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
There are no "lesser royals". You are royal or you are not royal. There is not such a difference between France (of Italy, or Austria, or Germany) in the use of the predicate Altesse Sérénissime. The Houses of Monaco, Liechtenstein, Croÿ, Arenberg, De Lobkowicz, Esterhazy, Gonzaga, Thurn und Taxis, Orsini, Visconti, and name these well-souding families, all are pretty comparable. In general the predicate is used "for persons of nobility born into a former sovereign princely House, not being a Kingdom."
First of all, the whole fact that there is a ranking system based on styles of royals means that there are "lesser" royals.

Second of all, yes there really is a difference between the French and German use of the title. In German speaking realms it was used for noble houses, the one exception being Liechtenstein which the Almanach recognizes as being royal. The French used it for members of the royal family who were not children or grandchildren of a king (and therefore were less than those members of the family who were the children or grandchildren of a king).
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  #220  
Old 12-12-2015, 01:44 PM
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In that case are the HSH Prince/ss of Liechenstein = to the HSH Prince/ss of Monaco? Thought all HSH's of Europe were on equal footing?
They would be ranked under different systems really. Every monarchy in Europe is at this point considered to be equal; if Hans-Adam II is "higher than" Albert II it's because he's reigned longer than Albert, not because he somehow outranks him. At the same time, Albert, while an HSH, would be "higher than" Felipe VI, an HM, as he's ruled longer.

We've put a lot of argument into the styling, but ultimately outside of the individual realms they're not necessarily significant. Well, I mean, there's an argument that the Prince Consorts, as HRHs, are beneath the Queen Consorts, as HMs, but that's a debate that I think few other than Prince Henrik really fuss over. Within some realms there is a deliberate ranking - within Norway, you have HM, HRH, and HH, which all correspond clearly to an individual's rank within the family - while in others there isn't - all the Liechtensteiner royals are HSH. But you're not going to see Hans-Adam II or Albert II bow to Harald V.
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