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  #1  
Old 06-08-2017, 04:45 PM
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Swedish Ancestry of the Swedish Royal Family

First of all, I hope I've created this thread in an appropriate place.

My question is, does current Swedish King have any Swedish blood in him? Quick search from J.B Bermadotte seems to place all kings' wives as foreigners.

Will Estelle be the Bernadotte Monarch with a Swedish parent?
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Old 06-08-2017, 05:04 PM
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If there's Swedish ancestry in there, it's distant.

Carl XIV John (born Jean Bernadotte) was French, married to Desiree Clary, also French

their son, Oscar I married Josephine of Leuchtenberg, whose parents were French and German

their son, Oscar II married Sophia of Nassau, whose parents were German

their son, Gustav V, married Victoria of Baden, whose parents were German

their son, Gustav VI Adolf married Margaret of Cannaught, whose parents were British and German

and the current king's parents were Gustav VI and Margaret's son Prince Gustav Adolf and Sibylla of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, whose parents were German, although her paternal grandfather was at least partially Scandinavian - he was a nephew of Christian IX of Denmark


Of course, bloodlines aside, at this point there is no one more thoroughly Swedish than a Bernadotte!

(there is a king missing in this list, but only because he was a hereditary dead end...but his wife wasn't Swedish, either)
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Old 06-08-2017, 05:31 PM
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The clearest line of descent would be through Queen Victoria whos grandmother was born a Swedish princess as a daughter of the deposed King Gustav VI Adolf. Through him and his ancestors of the Houses of Holstein-Gottorp & of Pfalz-Zweibrücken she was descended from the Vasas and the Scandinavian Royal houses of the Middle ages.
Funnily enough the branch of the House of Holstein-Gottorp that ascended the Swedish throne wasnt the closest one in line for the throne. The true heir was the nephew of King Karl VII, Duke Karl-Fredrik of Holstein-Gottorp, whos only son Peter became Tsar of Russia instead of King of Sweden.
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Old 06-09-2017, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
The clearest line of descent would be through Queen Victoria whos grandmother was born a Swedish princess as a daughter of the deposed King Gustav VI Adolf. Through him and his ancestors of the Houses of Holstein-Gottorp & of Pfalz-Zweibrücken she was descended from the Vasas and the Scandinavian Royal houses of the Middle ages.
Funnily enough the branch of the House of Holstein-Gottorp that ascended the Swedish throne wasnt the closest one in line for the throne. The true heir was the nephew of King Karl VII, Duke Karl-Fredrik of Holstein-Gottorp, whos only son Peter became Tsar of Russia instead of King of Sweden.
I was hoping someone else would have a sense of lineage going back farther than the spouses' parents. I decided looking all that up was a bigger job than I wanted to take on yesterday. Thank you!

So if that's the clearest line, then we have to look at the grandparents of CP Victoria's great-great-grandmother to find the closest "Swedish blood."

Of course, if the Bernadottes aren't "really" Swedish, then neither is the House that preceded them, Hollstein-Gottorp (which is Germanic). Like Bernadotte, that house's first king, Adolf Frederick, was a foreigner elected king by the Riksdag.
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Old 06-09-2017, 02:51 PM
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Queen Victoria had a lot of (genetic) influence in European and I think even Scandanavian monarchies.


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Old 06-09-2017, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
Queen Victoria had a lot of (genetic) influence in European and I think even Scandanavian monarchies.


LaRae
I think you mean Q.Victoria of England? The in above posts mentioned Q.Victoria is of Sweden (spouse of K.Gustav V)
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Old 06-09-2017, 03:09 PM
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Yes Queen Victoria of England, CP Victoria of Sweden isn't a queen yet.....and yes my post was mostly in response to that one....about them not being ver 'Swedish'.

A lot of royal houses contain her (Queen Victoria) genetic line.


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Old 06-09-2017, 03:15 PM
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Do I assume correctly that the Holstein-Gottorp's Kings weren't exactly Swedish? They came through the election and were German house? Of course King Adolf Frederick had strong Swedish ancestry, but was raised German.

I find it fascinating that the Bernadottes don't really have Swedish ancestry and are ruling Sweden. As much as Prince Daniel was given a hard time for his background he at least has a strong Swedish ancestry (as far as I know) and through him Estelle has Swedish blood in her.

Do you know if this topic is ever discuss in Sweden?
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Old 06-09-2017, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by RoyalNight View Post
Do I assume correctly that the Holstein-Gottorp's Kings weren't exactly Swedish? They came through the election and were German house? Of course King Adolf Frederick had strong Swedish ancestry, but was raised German.

I find it fascinating that the Bernadottes don't really have Swedish ancestry and are ruling Sweden. As much as Prince Daniel was given a hard time for his background he at least has a strong Swedish ancestry (as far as I know) and through him Estelle has Swedish blood in her.

Do you know if this topic is ever discuss in Sweden?
Its very rarely discussed in Sweden. The French ancestry of the Bernadottes are often mentioned but not in a negative way and is not an issue. We dont have something resembling the British "Theyre Germans" issue at all.
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Old 06-09-2017, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
Yes Queen Victoria of England, CP Victoria of Sweden isn't a queen yet.....and yes my post was mostly in response to that one....about them not being ver 'Swedish'.

A lot of royal houses contain her (Queen Victoria) genetic line.


LaRae
Although King Carl XVI Gustav is descended from Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom both through his mother & grandmother the Victoria Im talking about is the wife of Gustav V, Victoria of Baden.
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Old 06-10-2017, 06:16 AM
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Its very rarely discussed in Sweden. The French ancestry of the Bernadottes are often mentioned but not in a negative way and is not an issue. We dont have something resembling the British "Theyre Germans" issue at all.
That's good for the Family, and foe everybody in general. Thank you for the insight.
  #12  
Old 06-13-2017, 04:41 PM
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It is hard to imagine from a modern royal-watching standpoint the frame of mind that lead several countries at various times to say "we don't have an obvious person to put on the throne, so let's pick someone from another nation to fill the position." Sweden did it twice, Greece did it when they established a monarchy, Russia did it at least once, I may be forgetting some other nation. I've never fully understood why Sweden didn't pick a Swede, Greece didn't pick someone Greek, etc. But hey, it clearly made sense to the people at the time.

But beyond Queen Victoria being everyone's great-whatever grandmother, the more I look into these things the more it feels like just about every royal line is overwhelmingly made up of Germans. It makes sense, though. There were so many small royal houses in what is now Germany that for several centuries the bulk of the marriageable princes and princess at any given time were probably Germanic.
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Old 06-13-2017, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by RoyalNight View Post
First of all, I hope I've created this thread in an appropriate place.

My question is, does current Swedish King have any Swedish blood in him? Quick search from J.B Bermadotte seems to place all kings' wives as foreigners.

Will Estelle be the Bernadotte Monarch with a Swedish parent?

As explained above, the current Bernadotte king descends from the previous royal house of Sweden in female line through his great-grandmother, Victoria of Baden (wife of King Gustav V).

Having said that, this is a silly thread which IMHO reflects European obsession with "pure blood". The Bernadottes, despite coming from France, have been born and raised in Sweden for the past 200 years or so. From an American point of view, which associates nationality with place of birth, they would be considered Swedish then.

Putting it in another way, if first-generation children of immigrants are normally considered full-fledged Americans in the US, why should one question the "Swedishness" of a family who has lived in Sweden for 200 years ?
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Old 06-13-2017, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by loonytick View Post
It is hard to imagine from a modern royal-watching standpoint the frame of mind that lead several countries at various times to say "we don't have an obvious person to put on the throne, so let's pick someone from another nation to fill the position." Sweden did it twice, Greece did it when they established a monarchy, Russia did it at least once, I may be forgetting some other nation. I've never fully understood why Sweden didn't pick a Swede, Greece didn't pick someone Greek, etc. But hey, it clearly made sense to the people at the time.

But beyond Queen Victoria being everyone's great-whatever grandmother, the more I look into these things the more it feels like just about every royal line is overwhelmingly made up of Germans. It makes sense, though. There were so many small royal houses in what is now Germany that for several centuries the bulk of the marriageable princes and princess at any given time were probably Germanic.
I know that for instace Romania chose a foreign prince so as not to upset the power balance between the often infighting Romanian princely houses. Thats also the reason behind the rule not to allow a member of the Royal house to marry a native.
When Gustav VI was deposed a member of the House of Augustenborg was chosen and after his death many nobles favoured another Danish prince or even the Danish king himself to resurrect the old Kalmar union. Even though a big part of the population, the royal family included, wanted the former Crown prince Gustav to be reinstated in the succession this was vetoed by many nobles who feared that he would take his revenge on the men who had deposed his father. A funny fact is that after the death of said Prince Gustav of Vasa & his daughter, Queen Carola of Saxony, the next in line for the claim to the Swedish throne was his grand-nephew Grand Duke Frederick II of Baden. After his death in 1928 the claim devolved upon his sister Victoria, wife of King Gustav V of Sweden thus making the Bearnadottes the legitimate heirs to the House of Holstein-Gottorp.
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Old 06-13-2017, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by loonytick View Post
It is hard to imagine from a modern royal-watching standpoint the frame of mind that lead several countries at various times to say "we don't have an obvious person to put on the throne, so let's pick someone from another nation to fill the position." Sweden did it twice, Greece did it when they established a monarchy, Russia did it at least once, I may be forgetting some other nation. I've never fully understood why Sweden didn't pick a Swede, Greece didn't pick someone Greek, etc. But hey, it clearly made sense to the people at the time.

But beyond Queen Victoria being everyone's great-whatever grandmother, the more I look into these things the more it feels like just about every royal line is overwhelmingly made up of Germans. It makes sense, though. There were so many small royal houses in what is now Germany that for several centuries the bulk of the marriageable princes and princess at any given time were probably Germanic.

The Bourbons in Spain and the Hanoverians in Britain both came to the throne of their respective countries about 300 years ago or so, but, in both cases, it could at least be argued that they descended matrilineally from previous royal houses of the countries where they reigned, which is now not unlike the situation of the Bernadottes in Sweden.

A more interesting case is actually that of Belgium, which "imported" a royal family from Germany in 1831 , and there was actually no infusion of so-called "pure Belgian blood" in that family AFAIK until Philippe married Mathilde d'Udekem d'Acoz and had four children with her. Nonetheless, we don't often hear criticism of the Belgian Coburgs for "not being Belgian". The deposed Greek royal family provides a similar example.
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Old 06-13-2017, 07:04 PM
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First of all, I've never intended to criticise anyone, I've never said the RF was not Swedish, and honestly I don't appreciate calling my thread 'silly'. I thought it was ok to ask questions, right?
Kings throughout the history had to marry a respectable royal lady, so it makes sense that wives came form outside Sweden.
I find it interesting that P. Estelle will be the first Monarch with a parent whose many ancestors were born in Sweden to Swedish parents, with no indication (as far as I know) of foreigners.
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Old 06-13-2017, 08:10 PM
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First of all, I've never intended to criticise anyone, I've never said the RF was not Swedish, and honestly I don't appreciate calling my thread 'silly'. I thought it was ok to ask questions, right?
Kings throughout the history had to marry a respectable royal lady, so it makes sense that wives came form outside Sweden.
I find it interesting that P. Estelle will be the first Monarch with a parent whose many ancestors were born in Sweden to Swedish parents, with no indication (as far as I know) of foreigners.
Daniels father Olle Westling is active in an association for descendants of the so called Forest Finns that moved from the then Swedish province of Finland in the 16-17th centuries to the forest land of Värmland and adjoining provinces with many maintaining their distinct culture up until the early 20th century (I think the last Finnish speaker died in the 1960s) so one can assume that he has ancestors from that ethnic group. That said having Finnish ancestors is very common in Sweden with waves of immigrants moving between the two parts of the country during our 600 years long shared history.
Although this isnt the most active thread on the forums I find the subject very interesting :)
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Old 06-14-2017, 12:05 PM
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Having said that, this is a silly thread which IMHO reflects European obsession with "pure blood". The Bernadottes, despite coming from France, have been born and raised in Sweden for the past 200 years or so. From an American point of view, which associates nationality with place of birth, they would be considered Swedish then.
That's a strange thing to say in this day and age, IMO. If anything, I've found that Americans are much more likely to count themselves as still being Irish or German or whatnot based on ancestry (Irish-American, German-American, but you get what I'm saying), while Europeans look at us and say "silly goose, doesn't matter that your great-grandfather was born and raised in Dublin, if you weren't born in Ireland you're not Irish-Anything." And if anything the history that we're talking about just illustrates that Europeans have long been willing to adopt someone from outside their own citizenry to be head of state, while we Americans live under a constitution that doesn't allow such a thing.
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Old 06-14-2017, 12:24 PM
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Well, to be honest...on the very odd occassion that someone in the netherlands thinks we should abolish the monarchy (usually triggered by a money spending issue), the argument "those germans" or "they aren't even really dutch" pops up now and then.
The dutch RF is indeed hardly "dutch", you'd be hard pressed to find a dutch royal with just dutch grandparents, but other than the "anti monarchists" it's never really an issue...
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Old 06-14-2017, 01:12 PM
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That's a strange thing to say in this day and age, IMO. If anything, I've found that Americans are much more likely to count themselves as still being Irish or German or whatnot based on ancestry (Irish-American, German-American, but you get what I'm saying), while Europeans look at us and say "silly goose, doesn't matter that your great-grandfather was born and raised in Dublin, if you weren't born in Ireland you're not Irish-Anything." And if anything the history that we're talking about just illustrates that Europeans have long been willing to adopt someone from outside their own citizenry to be head of state, while we Americans live under a constitution that doesn't allow such a thing.
Marco Rubio's parents were both born outside the United States. Nevertheless, no one questioned that Marco Rubio was American, and being first generation didn't prevent him from running for president. The fact that people use hyphenated words like Irish-American or Cuban-American doesn't mean that they don't see themselves or are seen as Americans , but rather that they consider themselves Americans who also value and honor the culture of their ancestors who came from other countries.

Again, I insist on my point on why I called this discussion "silly", if not plainly racist. The opening question in this thread was if the Swedish royal family had "Swedish blood". To an American, the answer is obviously yes, not because Victoria of Baden descended from some 18th century Swedish king (which is the answer the OP probably expected), but rather because Carl XVI Gustaf's father, grandfather, great-grandfather and so on so forth all the way up to Charles XV were all born and raised in Sweden, and were therefore Swedish. To Americans, nationality is not a matter of "blood" that requires your ancestry in the country to be traced back five hundred years (not least, because 500 years ago, no Europeans or Africans lived in the Americas anyway !). Instead, it is a matter of place of birth and place of upbringing.

BTW, your point that , if one is not born in Dublin, he/she is not considered Irish may be true in Ireland (I don't know much about it), but it is certainly not true in other European countries. The Germans definitely considered ethnic Germans who were born and lived in the Czech Republic, or Poland, or Russia as "Germans", and actually that was one of the Nazi arguments for invading Eastern European countries. Even today, several European countries give out passports and citizenship to descendants of immigrants who left their country many generations ago, including members of my family, who have Italian citizenship even though only our great-grandfather was Italian.
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