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  #1  
Old 04-25-2003, 09:49 AM
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Spain seeks sainthood for Isabella
By Isambard Wilkinson in Madrid
(Filed: 23/04/2003)

Spain's Roman Catholic bishops are to petition the Pope to canonise Queen Isabella of Castile, one of history's most vilified monarchs.

Senior churchmen led by Cardinal Antonio Maria Rouco, the Archbishop of Madrid, yesterday revived a campaign asking that Queen Isabella be beatified, the first step towards being made a saint.

They hope for her to be beatified next year to mark the 500th anniversary of her death.

During her tempestuous 15th century reign, Isabella conquered much of Latin America for the Vatican, ended the 700-year presence of Moors and Jews on the Iberian Peninsula and assured the hegemony of Castile and the Catholic Church in Spain.

"We have investigated every aspect of this controversial and fascinating woman and it appears to be the time to abandon intransigence and see her in the context of her time and environment," said Jose Delicado, the Archbishop of Vallodolid, at the launch of the campaign, which was attended by Latin American ambassadors to Madrid.

Earlier attempts to launch Isabella - or La Catolica as she became known - on the road to sainthood ended in ignominy.

Waves of protest accompanied a 1999 initiative, with her detractors accusing her of exiling Jews and Muslims from Spain, instigating genocide in Latin America and setting up the Inquisition, which tortured and burnt hundreds of her countrymen at the stake.

The dictator Gen Franco instigated a campaign for Isabella's canonisation in 1952, believing that she embodied the ideals of "national Catholicism" along with its connotations of religious and racial purity.

But her popularity with Franco tarnished her image and the Vatican put to one side the 217 volumes and 800,000 documents sent to them by the then archbishop of Vallodolid.

Article From: news.telegraph.co.uk
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Old 02-07-2005, 12:17 PM
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`how did this go did she get sainthood?
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Old 02-07-2005, 09:04 PM
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I don't think so, I've heard nothing about it.

Personally, I don't think she should be a saint. Yes, she did much to expand Catholicism, but her method for doing so is highly questionable. For me, being a saint means that a person died for his/her religion, defied oppression, and happily accepted death as a consequence of their beliefs.
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Old 02-08-2005, 02:18 AM
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Is this the same Isabella that sponsored Chrsitopher Columbus? if it is, she shouldnt be a saint because she cheated Columbus, she promised money and jewells for him and she never gave it to him when he completed the task she sent him to do. I could be wrong, maybe it wasnt her or it was her that wanted to give him the money but she dies and her successor refused to give columbus the money owed. Not sure.
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Old 09-27-2005, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonlightrhapsody
I don't think so, I've heard nothing about it.

Personally, I don't think she should be a saint. Yes, she did much to expand Catholicism, but her method for doing so is highly questionable. For me, being a saint means that a person died for his/her religion, defied oppression, and happily accepted death as a consequence of their beliefs.

i totally agree. saints don't kill people. she did a lot for the wealth and power of the roman Catholic church but forgot its basic teachings. kindness and faith in your heart is more important than being a member of an institution made of gold and marble. Im not even sure if she's gone to heaven after everything shes done...
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Old 09-27-2005, 03:14 PM
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I'm probably going to cause a controversy here.

But you have to look at Isabella in the context of her time. She was a devout Catholic and looked at her actions in Spain as saving Christians from the infidels. This was a queen who even went to battle while pregnant! She sacrificed her children to make Spain wealthy and safe from external threats. Isabella was a magnificent sovereign.

And the subjugation of the native people of America and the stripping of its material wealth was part of the plan to save Spain. It also had the side benefit of allowing Christianity to be brought to the native people so that they too could share in Christ's mercy. (Yes, I know that many were killed or enslaved as a result of this policy.)

I'm not saying it was good or that Isabella deserves to be a saint, but you have to look at it in the context of the 1500s. You might even find some analogies between Spanish policy of the 1500s and current events.
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Old 09-27-2005, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by iowabelle
I'm probably going to cause a controversy here.

But you have to look at Isabella in the context of her time. She was a devout Catholic and looked at her actions in Spain as saving Christians from the infidels. This was a queen who even went to battle while pregnant! She sacrificed her children to make Spain wealthy and safe from external threats. Isabella was a magnificent sovereign.

And the subjugation of the native people of America and the stripping of its material wealth was part of the plan to save Spain. It also had the side benefit of allowing Christianity to be brought to the native people so that they too could share in Christ's mercy. (Yes, I know that many were killed or enslaved as a result of this policy.)

I'm not saying it was good or that Isabella deserves to be a saint, but you have to look at it in the context of the 1500s. You might even find some analogies between Spanish policy of the 1500s and current events.
I agree with you. The history is never objective completely. During great part of the 20th century the history of Spain was studied by foreign historians while Spain was a dictatorship, in many aspects it did not give a very objective vision of the history.
In the last years many studies have been done on the Queen Isabel. According to the documents she was asking to that they were travelling to America that they were treating well the native ones, nevertheless the things not always were like that. It is very easy to judge the history from our current vision. But many of the spanish who travelled to America married with native, and there were half-caste many. The local elites were marrying the Spanish. And some of the Spanish monks who travelled there helped to preserve the local cultures.
Today in day they continue existing native in the countries of latinoamerica and support part of their culture and someone of their languages.
On the expulsion of the Arabs of Spain, it is necessary to bear in mind that Spain was a Christian kingdom that the Arabs invaded.

There is curious the cirtica that is done to prominent figures as the Queen Isabel, while others are not judged of the same way. Probably it is because Spain is a smaller country, and because during great part of the XXth century he lived isolated by a dictatorship, and i lost all its power in the century XVIII. Now they send others.
What did happen with the english and the United States? Where are native Americans? And with Australia? That happened with the english and French and Canada? And the Asian colonies, and the African ones... And all settlings were in the later centuries, and some of them have been kept until recent years. Probably it would be necessary to think more about it, and not to judge a personage who lived her time ... and besides being a woman.
And Napoleon? He invaded several European countries and it was the XIXth century.
I feel if I bother someone with my reflection, but it seems to me to be unjust to judge a personage of the XVth century, when there were prominent figures of the XIXth century, of the XXth and there are prominent figures of the XXIst century, who in a more advanced world have done worse enough things.
That happens today in day with the illegal immigrants? Do not Europe or The United States close their borders to the foreigners? There continue no being wars? Does not death sentence exist in many countries even in most developed?
We judge the past and commit the same mistakes in the present or worse, because we live in a world more advanced that it had to learn of the mistakes of the past.
Not if she is going to be holy or not, and it does not matter for me. But if I believe that a personage has been ill-treated historically. An interesting personage who would have to be studied with major historical rigor, because for many people it was also one of big statesmen of her time ... being a woman. Today in day in the majority of the world men continue governing, you imaginais what should have been for her to govern 5 centuries ago?
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Old 09-27-2005, 05:35 PM
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From www.corbis.com

Queen Isabella

-Portrait of Isabella, Queen of Castile by Circle of Juan de Flandes
-Illustration of Christopher Columbus Departing on His First Voyage
-The Moorish Kings of Granada Paying a Tribute to the Catholic Kings of Spain
-Coronation of Isabella the Catholic in the Plaza Mayor in Segovia
-The Surrender of the Moorish Kingdom of Granada
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Old 09-27-2005, 05:53 PM
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From www.cover.es
REYES CATOLICOS FERNANDO II DE ARAGON E ISABEL I DE CASTILLA SEPULCRO EN LA CAPILLA REAL DE GRANADA OBRA ESCULTORICA DE DOMENICO FANCELLI
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Old 09-27-2005, 06:12 PM
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Thanks iowabelle and lula for your comments. The history of Spain is a very complex matter. Of course everyone here is against war but we can't jugde her, because in her time things were completely different from now. She was a very strong woman, and a wonderful Queen for Spain.
If she deserves to be Saint or not, God will decide.

I don't want to start discussion here but it was mention in last posts the African colonies. Portugal had colonies in Africa, and Brazil was our centuries ago, I have to defend that we made what we can call "an examplar colonialism", specially in Africa.
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Old 09-27-2005, 06:28 PM
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I have to admit to having some bias toward Isabella. After all, she was the mother of one of my favorite queens, Catherine of Aragon.
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Old 10-18-2005, 06:12 PM
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She kicked out the Jews, banned the Muslims, provoked genocide in Latin America and set the Inquisition loose on her countrymen. You can read more here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/internatio...661242,00.html

In my opinion she didn't spread the religion in the way of a saint. She forced the religion onto people. She doesn't seem like a very kind person to me, I am trying to look at it in the context as to which she was queen --I like what you had to say iowabelle-- I can't get my head around excusing the murders of innocent people and sacraficing her own children in order to make Spain wealthy.

What exactly did she do to deserve to be a saint...Don't saints have to have performed a miracle?

wonderful photos by the way!!
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Old 10-31-2005, 01:29 AM
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Frankly, I don't think should be sainted or whatever. When, you break it down. THe actions of all back in the day of the THEN Superpowers were what he call in this day & age TERRORIST.


If you were to stop & think about. All wars were fought back then in the name of Religion. Those who did not conform were murdered & enslaved & so on & so on. Nothing going today can compare what was done to Original people of certain lands. Or the religious slauters. The Romans & christians, The English & the Aborigianl People Aust., The Native Americans & the Puritians Lets not forget Slavery.

Doing any of the above does not excuse one in the name of religion. & Do I have to mention that the Church itself was a Grand Wizard when it came to MURDER. The Biggest Terrorist of all. Murder in the Name of God. Does this sound familar.

Please Note: The post is not a bash on Catholic Church so much. But, Killing in the name of Religion, FORCING ones faith on others, Yeah how saintly:(

yeah, we can look back with 20/20 vision. But. that is what it is about isn't it. If someone was to mention tha Osma be nominated for somekind of Whatever the public out cray throughout the non arab world would make everyone flipout. I see no difference really. The cover ont he book is different but, it is almost the same old story.
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Old 10-31-2005, 07:37 AM
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Queen Isabella gave something to her country and to the world. She enforced what she believed to be the one true faith and as a catholic, I applaud her intentions. Her methods may have been a little unsavoury but things were different then. I believe she should be made a Saint and I hope the Holy Father will canonize her.
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Old 10-31-2005, 08:39 AM
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I do not care if her methods of converting people to catholisism were normal for that age or not, the lady ordered more or less a mass murderer, making her a saint would be utterly idiotic and I do not understand how people can even suggest such a thing these days. I hope that the catholic church will not be silly enough to take this request seriously (considering all the trouble they have been through appologising to jews, native americans etc) and I do not expect them to be as it would be a very controversial decission.
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Old 10-31-2005, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Queen Isabella gave something to her country and to the world. She enforced what she believed to be the one true faith and as a catholic, I applaud her intentions. Her methods may have been a little unsavoury but things were different then. I believe she should be made a Saint and I hope the Holy Father will canonize her.
In her day, her actions were considers barbaric. People fleed the country to keep from being killed. No one said "oh well, lets convert because the queen said so." they ran for there lives because they wanted freedom. One thing has not changed over time and that is peoples longing for freedom whether it is through expression or religion.

How can it be said that killing people because they have different beliefs than you is ok...even if it was many years ago-it still happened to actual living breathing people, not fictional people?
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Old 10-31-2005, 05:04 PM
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No one said "oh well, lets convert because the queen said so." they ran for there lives because they wanted freedom.
I believe they ran for their lives because they wanted to stay alive not because they wanted freedom. Isabella is just one of those great figures of history that we learn from and we take bits and pieces from. It isn't fair to say that she was a monster etc - we can learn from her reign and take certain parts of her reign as being brilliant skills and methods of leadership and others as being not so good in the modern age. I think this applies to most historical figures.
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Old 10-31-2005, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I believe they ran for their lives because they wanted to stay alive not because they wanted freedom. Isabella is just one of those great figures of history that we learn from and we take bits and pieces from. It isn't fair to say that she was a monster etc - we can learn from her reign and take certain parts of her reign as being brilliant skills and methods of leadership and others as being not so good in the modern age. I think this applies to most historical figures.
Certainly, but we're talking about her canonisation. In my opinion, the right time for Queen Isabella to be declared saint has passed; today it will cause problems to the Holy See and trigger another round of Ratzinger-bashing. No one would have objected if Pius IX had canoonised her some time in the 1850s...

BTW, I'm an agnostic, and I think that the old Bavarian in the Apostolic Palace can canonise whoever he likes to. :)
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Old 10-31-2005, 06:03 PM
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The old Bavarian?

I hope he follows his heart and canonises Isabella.
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Old 11-01-2005, 04:56 AM
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The old Bavarian = the pope.

But what can we seriously learn from this Isabella? That we should kill people who are not catholic? What else did the woman do then fanatacally killing non-catholics? I think the (western) world experiences some religious fanatisism again these days and I do not think that experience is quite satisfactory.

What's next? Canonise that horrible Phillip II/Duke of Alba or Charles IX/Catharina de Medici who more or less ordered mass murders under the dutch/ french protestant population?
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