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  #81  
Old 04-22-2010, 01:43 PM
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Exactly. They didn't trust people who converted, as they thought they were practicing the other religions in secret. Besides, while she was growing up there was a lot of anarchy. I think it is natural that she wanted to reconquer the lands, and wanted Spain united. She did what she thought was best for Spain, and of course, what she had been taught was right. And she did so much. New lands, driving the Moors and Jews out of Spain, or them converting. She was a very strong woman. I've always admired her for her strong devotion to her faith and her country, and everything she did for it.
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  #82  
Old 04-22-2010, 05:38 PM
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Because as time passes people see that a thought that was incorrect needs to be corrected. The Church is only a group of men, men who made mistakes, big mistakes and at this time they are seeing the mistakes and mending those faults. She, as you say, trusted her church and that is okay. But that doesn't make her a saint. She did a great deal of harm and supported it.
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  #83  
Old 04-22-2010, 05:50 PM
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Can't we stop discussing this? The first time I've heard of this story has been here. Q. Isabel I has been the best queen the spaniards have ever had. But clearly she is not a saint because she didn't do any miracle.

And she wasn't more "genocidal" than the rest of the monarchs of the rest of Europe, this reeks of double standard in my opinion
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  #84  
Old 04-22-2010, 09:30 PM
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She behaved as she behaved because the Church she trusted said it was the right way of behaving. She was a saint so.
As a Catholic, the problem for me is that the Church seems now to have changed its way of seeing things: so now why should one person work hard trying to do what the Church tell him to do if in few centuries they will change their mind??
Because if the church was sanctioning and encouraging the torture of people by royal fiat, that is something to be regretted. The present Pope is resisting being held to account for the sexual molestation by priests under his aegis. After all Ratzinger was Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith. Not as sexy as it's former title The Inquisition, which Isabella enthusiastically encouraged as did her offspring Phillip, His Most Catholic Majesty.
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  #85  
Old 04-22-2010, 09:43 PM
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Can't we stop discussing this? The first time I've heard of this story has been here. Q. Isabel I has been the best queen the spaniards have ever had. But clearly she is not a saint because she didn't do any miracle.

And she wasn't more "genocidal" than the rest of the monarchs of the rest of Europe, this reeks of double standard in my opinion
Well, you are right that there were many monarchs no better than she, but sainthood was the discussion and they are not being discussed for sainthood. Those of us who think she is poor material for a saint, have said so. By the way, she destroyed and drove out many industrious, educated people from Spain, hardly a testimony for a "Good Queen".
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  #86  
Old 04-22-2010, 10:21 PM
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What exactly should she be sainted for? The Spanish Inquisition alone should bar her from any such consideration, in my eyes.
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  #87  
Old 04-23-2010, 06:38 AM
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Well, you are right that there were many monarchs no better than she, but sainthood was the discussion and they are not being discussed for sainthood. Those of us who think she is poor material for a saint, have said so. By the way, she destroyed and drove out many industrious, educated people from Spain, hardly a testimony for a "Good Queen".
There have only two queen in Spain, I can assure you that Isabel II was worse that the first. And comaparing her to the rest of the monarcs she is one of the best, as you can see the level is not very high.

It wasn't her who wanted the jews out of Spain but his husband who was a King on his own right because he had debts with them and he couldn't pay them. I know that she was not perfect but imo she was better than the kings that came after her.

I don't think she should be a saint, she isn't and I still ask myself who started this nonsense!

And we already have a king that was a saint, we don't need another one!
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  #88  
Old 04-23-2010, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Melibea View Post
Q. Isabel I has been the best queen the spaniards have ever had. But clearly she is not a saint because she didn't do any miracle.

And she wasn't more "genocidal" than the rest of the monarchs of the rest of Europe, this reeks of double standard in my opinion
I quite agree. It's like I said, her country and her faith were the most important things to her. And yes, many monarchs also were genocidal.
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  #89  
Old 04-23-2010, 04:50 PM
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I quite agree. It's like I said, her country and her faith were the most important things to her. And yes, many monarchs also were genocidal.

That was one of the problem of the monarchas on Spain, the religious question; we would be on a better position on the world stage if the monarchs had not been so obssesed on thinking that spain should remain a catholic country without influence of any other religion
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  #90  
Old 04-23-2010, 05:12 PM
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It all is what it is, the only offensive thing is thinking she is a saint. As previously said, what was saintly about her?
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  #91  
Old 04-23-2010, 05:18 PM
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She fought against the non catholic guys and she was very catholic herself. Please let this be, Rouco Varela doesn't have anything interesting to do and he started this foolish story.

Isabel was a good queen but she did many mistakes and all of us know that she is no saint.
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  #92  
Old 04-24-2010, 01:49 AM
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A Saint for the Catholic Church is somebody completely faithfull to the Church and practising its teaching as Isabella did. It is not a synonim of "politically correct person"! So not Catholic should not care about sainthood of people and judge them as they prefer.
However I think that the issue of Isabella's sainthood is very interesting for Catholic people: they believe that the Pope cannot make mistakes in theological issues, but Isabella's case show evidently that what Popes are saying today is the contrary of what Popes said at Isabella's time. I will confess that this is one of the motivation of my actual spiritual confusion
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  #93  
Old 04-24-2010, 01:31 PM
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I think that it's not a contradiction, the pope has never said that Isabel was a saint only that she was an important figure in the catholic expansion in spain and the world.
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  #94  
Old 04-24-2010, 08:28 PM
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Very cogent answer. And she was. It's the sainthood that is foolish.
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  #95  
Old 04-24-2010, 09:37 PM
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^^
I think that it's not a contradiction, the pope has never said that Isabel was a saint only that she was an important figure in the catholic expansion in spain and the world.


Oh yes, she definitely expanded Catholicism in Spain and around the world -- under the threat of torture and/or death. You'll convert if your only other option is dying.

Besides, considering all the things the Pope has on his plate right now (his Nazi past, the sex abuse scandals), perhaps he ought not to be pontificating on Queen Isabella and her murderous tactics to ratchet up the number of Catholics in the Western World and beyond.
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  #96  
Old 04-25-2010, 06:27 AM
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If you read the article you will see that the pope has not said that she is going to be a saint. The person that started this hasn't got the time either (he has a lot of problems in Spain now) so really, I don't know anyone that thinks that Isabel was a saint.

When I say that there is a doublel standard is because people always remember that the spanish monarchs did to expand catholicism, but I don't see the mention when the expansion was about protestantism. I know that we have the black legend to fight but I doubt that what Isabel did was worse than what other monarchs did to expand their own religion. For instance in Spain until 1492 all monarchs tried to expand their territory fughting the muslims.

IMO it's not all so black and white
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  #97  
Old 04-25-2010, 11:27 AM
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Oh, you are right. The Crusades were no picnic, either. Blood on everyone of their hands. I think it was just trhe sainthood spectre that raised this other stuff. No one would argue the rest.
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  #98  
Old 11-03-2010, 06:59 PM
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So let me get this straight.. this would be a picture of Juana, the mad, correct? Because someone on a website has it labeled as Katherine Swynford and over 200 people now have this attached to their websites as Katherine Swynford.. how can something like that happen?!

I tried to tell this woman, but she called me mentally ill, etc. etc. It was not a nice message. I was very upset.
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  #99  
Old 11-03-2010, 08:22 PM
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Because people don't really look at anything, closely.
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  #100  
Old 11-04-2010, 07:17 AM
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So let me get this straight.. this would be a picture of Juana, the mad, correct? Because someone on a website has it labeled as Katherine Swynford and over 200 people now have this attached to their websites as Katherine Swynford.. how can something like that happen?!

I tried to tell this woman, but she called me mentally ill, etc. etc. It was not a nice message. I was very upset.
Her cloak bears the arms of Juana I,maybe point that out to them !
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