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  #21  
Old 11-01-2005, 08:49 AM
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While Queen Isabella did achieve remarkable things in her life, I do not think she should be canonized. She supported the Inquisition and many died because their beliefs were not of Catholicism. How can someone be canonized for being intolerant and prejudiced? She doesn't hold a candle to Mother Teresa.
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  #22  
Old 11-12-2005, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonlightrhapsody
I don't think so, I've heard nothing about it.

Personally, I don't think she should be a saint. Yes, she did much to expand Catholicism, but her method for doing so is highly questionable. For me, being a saint means that a person died for his/her religion, defied oppression, and happily accepted death as a consequence of their beliefs.
I'm Catholic and I definitely don't think Isabella I should be made a saint. Her beliefs were shaped by her times but she was no Joan Of Ark or Francis Of Asisi. She was a warring Queen who banished Jews from her lands. I imagine the Holy Family would have to have been included if they had lived in her time. :( And she burned 'heretics'. And the Native Indians of the Americas are none to fond of her or her husband.

I tried to find out the latest on the possible Sainthood of Isabella from the Vatican site but it's hard to follow-well for me it is but then I'm slow. :

http://www.vatican.va/

I have asked Mother Teresa to pray for me. As I have asked my deceased loved ones if they can hear me. I could never ever talk to Isabella that way. She is just not saint material for me. There were people of her time who tried to be peaceful, and loving-of course they did not have her power to order deaths. The parables do mention something about it being easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle or something than for a rich man to get into Heaven. People abused there power then and they do so now. I wonder if our descendants hundreds of years from now will say 'well Hitler was a product of his time'. It's chilling really.
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  #23  
Old 11-12-2005, 07:46 AM
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Without veering majorly off-topic, Hitler was following his beliefs just the same as Isabella was. If there was such a thing as a Nazi Church and they wanted to canonise him then I'd have no objection because I'm not a follower of that church and so if they want to pray to Adolf let them. I feel it's the same with Isabella. Yes, she had very strange and unorthodox ways of handling religious beliefs in her Kingdom but she did what she thought was right and she just wanted to spread Catholicism - and I think that most Catholics would say thats an applaudable goal. I say canonize her. She was doing what she thought was right and she was trying to promote her faith. And as its my faith she was promoting - I'm on her side. Then again, if I were a heretic she'd burned at the stake, I wouldn't be such a supporter.
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  #24  
Old 11-13-2005, 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Without veering majorly off-topic, Hitler was following his beliefs just the same as Isabella was. If there was such a thing as a Nazi Church and they wanted to canonise him then I'd have no objection because I'm not a follower of that church and so if they want to pray to Adolf let them. I feel it's the same with Isabella. Yes, she had very strange and unorthodox ways of handling religious beliefs in her Kingdom but she did what she thought was right and she just wanted to spread Catholicism - and I think that most Catholics would say thats an applaudable goal. I say canonize her. She was doing what she thought was right and she was trying to promote her faith. And as its my faith she was promoting - I'm on her side. Then again, if I were a heretic she'd burned at the stake, I wouldn't be such a supporter.
Well there must be proof I think of at least three miracles attributed to her before she can be canonized. And the Church does investigate claims of miracles vigorously before proceeding. Personally I don't see any forthcoming.

Hitler was an evil man. I do not mean to compare him to Isabella who I believe was in general a good woman, and a fiercely devout Catholic. But there are some undeniable similarities.

Posterity will probably note that even in Hitler's and Isabella's time many of their contemporaries recognized that what they were doing was very wrong.

Edited to add that Isabella still remains one of my favorite Queens. She was an amazing woman for her time and a poster noted she went to war while pregnant. Like her granddaughter Mary I she had great courage in a man's world.
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  #25  
Old 04-02-2006, 09:22 AM
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I almost fell of the chair, Queen Isabel I a saint?!?!?!
Where are her three miracles? Unless you count as one the trail of foreign blood they left behind a miracle for the medioeval Church. If Genghis Khan was a catholic and commited all his atrocities in the name of the Church, would he be canonized too?
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  #26  
Old 04-02-2006, 11:28 AM
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The Vatican entity that makes the process of the sainthood is the Congregation for the Causes of Saints (remember Stigmata?, Father Andrew worked for that ) and there are some requisits for the study which should be presented by a bishop or a cardinal in order to be considered:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/co..._norme_en.html
I don't think Isabella deserves sainthood, she didn't heal anybody, she didn't save anyone, her body got rotten like everybody's and to be honest no monarch or ruler (PM, presidents, etc) in the story of the Earth should ever be canonized, the power corrupts everyone
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  #27  
Old 04-02-2006, 09:57 PM
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Amen to that.
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  #28  
Old 02-22-2009, 12:31 PM
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My opinion about Isabella I is very complex. I admire her personal strength and determination to reign over kingdoms she inherited herself in the time when heiresses were expected to cede power to their husbands. I admire her bravery and monarchical abilities.

I admit that her role in creating Spain as we know it today is important. But that's the point where Isabella the Catholic becomes Isabella the Monster in my eyes. The way she succeeded in uniting Spain is simply horrifying. Promising freedom of religion to people who surrendered and then breaking that promise* is not something a saint would do. We all know what happened later: mass expulsions, forced conversions, enslavement of Moor children*, etc.

My conclusion: she is an important person in Spanish history, but not really a saint material. I consider her the brightest and the most shameful spot in Spanish history at the same time.

* Erna Paris, The End of Days (1995)
* William Hickling Prescott, History of the Reign of Ferdinand and Isabella, the Catholic, of Spain (1854)
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  #29  
Old 02-23-2009, 09:52 AM
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Back in the day, both Christianity and Islam were spread by the sword. Think of all the Crusades 'to free CHrist's tomb from the infidel'. I also don't think the present pope, a member of Hitler Youth, is likely to hold the Inquisition against her. After all he led it himself not to long ago. Only now it has the un-sexy name of Prefect for The Doctrine of Faith, not the Inquisition any longer.
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  #30  
Old 02-24-2009, 08:42 PM
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Queen Isabella has no grounds to become a Saint; she was nothing but one of the most remarkable and strongest rulers in world history. Isabella's strength, will and sense of duty ranks amongst the most extraordinary this world has ever seen.

Following I quote part of the book "Queens of old Spain" by Martin Hume, in my opinion the most qualified expert regarding Queen Isabella's life and personality:

“Isabel the Catholic was a great queen and a good woman, because her aims were high. She was not tender, or gentle, or what we should now call womanly. If she had been, she would not have made Castile one of the greatest powers in Europe in her reign of thirty years. She was not scrupulous, or she would not have been so easily persuaded to displace her niece the Beltraneja, She was not tender hearted, or she would not have looted unmoved upon the massacre or expulsion, in circumstances of atrocious inhumanity, of Jews and Moors, to whom she broke her solemn oath upon a weak pretext. She was none of these pleasant things; nor was she the sweet, saintly housewife she is usually represented. If she had been, she would not have been Isabel the Catholic one of the strongest personalities, and probably the greatest woman ruler the world ever saw: a woman whose virtue slander itself never dared to attack; whose saintly devotion to her faith blinded her eyes to human things, and whose anxiety to please the God of mercy made her merciless to those she thought His enemies.”
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  #31  
Old 02-24-2009, 09:48 PM
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I do not know about her being canonized as a saint. But Isabella certainly changed the world.
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  #32  
Old 02-24-2009, 10:42 PM
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In fact Chuchu, Queen Isabella achieved in her life what none of her noble and powerful ancestors did in theirs. Isabella's genius not only created Spain, which would become the most powerful empire for over 2 centuries, but also was instrumental in the discovery of America, so changing the world. Isabella's descendants founded dynasties and ruled over most of Europe and expanded western culture over a large part of the world.

There are a few monarchs who became Saints without the merits to get that distinction; being pious, just and good are not qualities enough to become a Saint. Saints and good monarchs belong to different categories. Isabella was a great monarch and great monarchs do not make Saints, as well as Saints do not have the qualities to become great monarchs.
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  #33  
Old 02-25-2009, 03:39 PM
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I have a hard time believing that the Pope will canonize Isabella, when he is trying to build a spirit of reconciliation between the Church and the Jews and the Muslims. Not to mention what the Spanish did to the indigenous people of the Americas.

Despite Isabella's great achievements at unifying Spain and spreading Spanish control over a huge proportion of the world, she was also the queen of Torquemada and the Spanish Inquisition. Not good PR for a future saint.
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  #34  
Old 02-25-2009, 06:46 PM
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I think that Elizabeth I of England has more chances to become an Anglican saint than Isabella I of Castile has to become a Roman Catholic saint. Elizabeth was a virgin (at least officially , though this is not so importnant); she didn't commit any massacre; she turned England into a supernation; most importantly, her reign saw Elizabethan Religious Settlement and final establishment of the Church of England.
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  #35  
Old 02-25-2009, 06:58 PM
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Don't see Elizabeth becoming a saint (albeit Anglican) either ... the Tudors were hardly paragons of good behavior, and Elizabeth martyred numerous Catholics and non-conformists, not to mention whacking off the head of dear cousin Mary.
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  #36  
Old 02-25-2009, 07:03 PM
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That's all true. I don't see Elizabeth as saint either, but I still think that she has better chances than her aunt's mother Isabella.
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  #37  
Old 02-25-2009, 07:32 PM
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Both Queens were great monarchs, as a result neither deserve sainthood.

Remember that Elizabeth I was also a queen of intrigue; she needed those skills to survive in a court where assassination was a day to day affair. She also sponsored piracy and religious revolts all over Europe, which caused wars and death everywhere. I don't think Elizabeth is any closer to sainthood than Isabella. Isabella showed no mercy in defending her ultimate goal, which was the unity of Spain and was strongly convinced that she had come to this world to make the Catholic Church reign supreme all over the world. Isabella's orders to the Conquistadores were to respect the lives of aboriginals in America. That is one of the reasons the aboriginal population in Latin America is so large nowadays.

By "aunt's mother" you mean "stepmother's mother"? I don't think Catherine of Aragon was ever Elizabeth I's stepmother, maybe she was her father's ex wife.
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  #38  
Old 02-25-2009, 07:32 PM
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I think you mean Elizabeth's half-sister's grandmother? The half-sister being Mary Tudor, not the queen of Scotland.

Sometimes we Americans aren't very good at describing more complex family relationships. We get our "half" and "step" relatives mixed up all the time, and let's not even talk about our relations with cousins!
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  #39  
Old 02-25-2009, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camilo2002 View Post
Isabella's orders to the Conquistadores were to respect the lives of aboriginals in America. That is one of the reasons the aboriginal population in Latin America is so large nowadays.
Have to dispute that point with you. They (the Spanish, not Isabella herself) virtually wiped out the indigenous population of Cuba and many of the islands, and many of the native peoples of California. And they tried to kill or enslave the Aztecs and other tribes of central Mexico.

Of course, Isabella was probably more interested in converting the natives and exploiting them, than exterminating them.
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  #40  
Old 02-25-2009, 07:46 PM
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No, I mean exactly "aunt's mother" Catherine of Aragon can't be described as Elizabeth's step-mother, because her marriage to Elizabeth's father ended (actually never existed as seen by the Church of England) before Elizabeth's birth. However, Catherine was married to Elizabeth's uncle Arthur (a valid marriage as seen by the Church of England), so she was aunt of Elizabeth and Edward That means she was also her daughter Mary's aunt. Ewww.

Anyway, I am aware how unperfect Elizabeth was, but she is not as unpopular among non-Anglicans as Isabella is unpopular among non-Roman Catholics. Unlike Isabella, Elizabeth is never described as "monstrous". I agree, however, that none of them is a perfect saint material.
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