The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #1  
Old 02-14-2008, 08:18 PM
Russophile's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Portland, United States
Posts: 4,077
The Duchy of Courland 1561-1795

Thought maybe this ought to be in the Russian area but might be better suited here. Read a very cool book about 10 years ago about the last Duchess and her daughters. She had 4 I believe, 1 was the lover of Metternich and the other, The Duchess of Dino was the lover of Tallyrand.
The Duchy of Courland, 1561-1795
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-15-2008, 04:24 PM
BeatrixFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,843
Isn't that what is now Latvia? Courland?
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-19-2008, 07:08 PM
Russophile's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Portland, United States
Posts: 4,077
Yes, it is. They let it go. It was an interesting little piece of property and their Duchess was well educated as were her girls. I should find some pics for this.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-26-2008, 04:17 PM
BeatrixFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,843
The last Duke of Courland was Ferdinand Kettler but he was denied the post because he lived in Danzig and not 'Courland'. Catherine the Great put in a puppet Duke called Ernst Biron but it'd be interesting to trace the line and see who would be reigning today. Then again, the Duchy doesn't exist anymore so it's a Russia situation.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-26-2008, 04:43 PM
Marengo's Avatar
Administrator
Royal Blogger, TRF Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 13,872
Wasn't the last duke of Courland Duke Peter? I believe he had to hand over his Duchy to the Russians int he late 18th century. He had several daughters, the eldest one, Wilhelmine became rather notorious for her affairs. Even Metternich fell for her graces and commented later 'She sins seven times a day and loves as often as others dine'.

Wilhelmine did not get Courland indeed but she did get the Duchy of Pagan. Later this title would go to a younger sister who married a Hohenzollern-Hechtingen.
__________________
TRF Rules and FAQ
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-26-2008, 05:04 PM
BeatrixFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,843
Well, this is where it's confusing. Before the Duchy of Courland was the Livonia Confederation. Before that was the Kingdom of Semigalle which is modern Zemgale in Latvia. The only known ruler of this Kingdom was King Vesthardus who refused to accept Christianity and so fought against the invasion of the crusaders of the Livonian Order. He lost and Semigallia and the territory of Courland were teamed together as the Duchy of Courland and Semigallia which was controlled by the Grand Duke of Lithuania. He appointed the last Master of the Livionian Order as first Duke of Courland and Semigallia so even the claim of the first Duke is a shaky one. This chap was called Gotthard Kettler and it's through him that it passed down the line to Ferdinand Kettler via a chap called Jacob I believe. Ferdinand wasn't living in the Duchy (thus making his claim void) and Catherine the Great saw her chance and put in Ernst Biron. His son Peter inherited the Dukedom and he signed it away to Russia. So the Tsars became Dukes of Courland.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-26-2008, 08:48 PM
Russophile's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Portland, United States
Posts: 4,077
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
Wasn't the last duke of Courland Duke Peter? I believe he had to hand over his Duchy to the Russians int he late 18th century. He had several daughters, the eldest one, Wilhelmine became rather notorious for her affairs. Even Metternich fell for her graces and commented later 'She sins seven times a day and loves as often as others dine'.

Wilhelmine did not get Courland indeed but she did get the Duchy of Pagan. Later this title would go to a younger sister who married a Hohenzollern-Hechtingen.
There were 4 daughters, the last one, who was the Duchess of Dino (my fav. since that's my son's name) who's paternity was in question. She married Tallyrand's son? Or nephew? But had an affair with Tallyrand.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-10-2012, 01:24 AM
Commoner
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Santa Clara, United States
Posts: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russophile View Post
There were 4 daughters, the last one, who was the Duchess of Dino (my fav. since that's my son's name) who's paternity was in question. She married Tallyrand's son? Or nephew? But had an affair with Tallyrand.
The Duchess of Dino (Dorothea) was married to the nephew of Talleyrand, Edmond de Talleyrand-Périgord. Her biological father is Alexander Batowski, a Polish envoy to the Duchy of Courland.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-10-2012, 01:32 AM
Commoner
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Santa Clara, United States
Posts: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
Wasn't the last duke of Courland Duke Peter? I believe he had to hand over his Duchy to the Russians int he late 18th century. He had several daughters, the eldest one, Wilhelmine became rather notorious for her affairs. Even Metternich fell for her graces and commented later 'She sins seven times a day and loves as often as others dine'.

Wilhelmine did not get Courland indeed but she did get the Duchy of Pagan. Later this title would go to a younger sister who married a Hohenzollern-Hechtingen.
Wilhelmine did become Duchess of Sagan. The duchy succession is unique, because it can be passed to female and male. The title did pass on to her sister, Pauline the Princess of Hohenzollern-Hechingen. But it immediately went to Dorothea (Duke Peter acknowledge her as his own offspring) and not the third daughter, Johanna Katharina because Duke Peter disowned her after having an affair with an Italian musician and almost ran away with him, but the duke found her.

They are interesting sisters
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-10-2012, 01:40 AM
Commoner
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Santa Clara, United States
Posts: 45
Their mother, Duchess Dorothea of Courland, had many lovers and most of her lovers also become her daughters' lovers !
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-10-2012, 02:04 AM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: alpine village, Germany
Posts: 1,805
Quote:
Originally Posted by theresa_225 View Post
Their mother, Duchess Dorothea of Courland, had many lovers and most of her lovers also become her daughters' lovers !
Probably the mother was into younger men and the daughters preferred their lovers a bit on the older side. So this could very well work out fine for all concerned..
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-11-2012, 05:54 PM
kbk kbk is offline
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Toruń, Poland
Posts: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by theresa_225 View Post
The duchy succession is unique, because it can be passed to female and male.
The Duchy of Sagan (in Polish, księstwo żagańskie) was not sovereign in any way and it was rather a hereditary estate. Those who possesed Sagan were called Dukes of Sagan because historically they were successors of the Dukes of Silesia from the Polish House of Piast, who ruled the region divided in many small duchies until the 16th or 17th century. One of the historical Silesian duchies was Sagan and after its last ruler died and his line totally died out, it passed to the Bohemian Crown, of which the former Dukes were vassals. So, the so-called Duchy fell to the Crown and it became a semi-feudal property which can be given and sold. Those who held Sagan used the title of Dukes of that place but it was just a noble title of the Kingdom. And because the Courland princesses were not successors of the Piast Dukes of Sagan, they were just heirs to their father's property. Thus, it could pass to them.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-14-2012, 03:59 AM
Commoner
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Santa Clara, United States
Posts: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbk View Post
The Duchy of Sagan (in Polish, księstwo żagańskie) was not sovereign in any way and it was rather a hereditary estate. Those who possesed Sagan were called Dukes of Sagan because historically they were successors of the Dukes of Silesia from the Polish House of Piast, who ruled the region divided in many small duchies until the 16th or 17th century. One of the historical Silesian duchies was Sagan and after its last ruler died and his line totally died out, it passed to the Bohemian Crown, of which the former Dukes were vassals. So, the so-called Duchy fell to the Crown and it became a semi-feudal property which can be given and sold. Those who held Sagan used the title of Dukes of that place but it was just a noble title of the Kingdom. And because the Courland princesses were not successors of the Piast Dukes of Sagan, they were just heirs to their father's property. Thus, it could pass to them.
Thank you about the information since what I know is King Fredrick William III granted that special succession to the Courland princesses.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-15-2012, 08:12 AM
Commoner
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Santa Clara, United States
Posts: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
Probably the mother was into younger men and the daughters preferred their lovers a bit on the older side. So this could very well work out fine for all concerned..
It is just a little bit strange . But probably back then, it was considered fine to do by people as culture and habits change all the time.

Note: I do not mean to offend anyone and I am not against other opinions as everyone deserves to give one. I am just explaining my post further on the fear of offending anyone.Thank you.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
courland, duchy of courland, duke of courland


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Duchy of Cornwall auntie The Prince of Wales and the Duchess of Cornwall 213 04-11-2014 07:44 AM
King/Grand Duke Willem II (1792-1849), Queen Anna Paulowna (1795-1865) and family Marengo Dutch Royal History 41 11-29-2013 11:55 AM
Duchy Originals Jacqueline The Prince of Wales and the Duchess of Cornwall 57 02-10-2010 11:50 AM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
abdication birth birthday bourbon-parma camilla chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria danish royals engagement fashion genealogy grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri habsburg hereditary grand duchess stéphanie hereditary grand duke guillaume hohenzollern infanta elena king abdullah king abdullah ii king albert ii king carl xvi gustav king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander norway palace picture thread pom pregnancy prince constantijn prince felipe prince felix prince frederik prince henrik prince joachim prince laurent princess princess alexia (2005 -) princess annette princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess haya princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess marie princess marilene princess mary princess maxima queen mathilde queen maxima queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia sheikh state visit wedding willem-alexander william


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:44 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]