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  #41  
Old 11-05-2013, 04:33 PM
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abrefraw

i have been doing other sides of my familys tree and have found that i have german royalty the house of wettin hesse hesse castle and hesse darmstadt and i have a grandfather with the the name dewindsor he was the sheriff of windsor castle in england
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  #42  
Old 01-24-2014, 04:38 PM
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There isn't a "sheriff of Windsor castle". There never has been. A sheriff in England is connected to a shire; it is a "shire reeve". The Sheriff of Nottingham was the chief military officer in the county of Nottinghamshire and was based in the county town; Nottingham. I don't think the Sheriff of Berkshire has been based in Windsor for a very long time (if ever) - the capital of Berkshire was historically Wantage. Your grandfather's surname "de Windsor" is interesting though.
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  #43  
Old 01-24-2014, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by donald h View Post
i have been doing other sides of my familys tree and have found that i have german royalty the house of wettin hesse hesse castle and hesse darmstadt and i have a grandfather with the the name dewindsor he was the sheriff of windsor castle in england
Richard de Windsor was High Sheriff of Berkshire in 1314 - so not your grandfather. Here is a link to all the High Sheriffs.

High Sheriff of Berkshire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"de Windsor" would normally designate that that is where he came from, not that he had a role in the town. IF you look at the list you will see a lot of "de" XXX
because surnames as we know them didn't exist
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  #44  
Old 01-24-2014, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Midwestern Mom View Post
Weren't the Llewellens the last main rulers of Wales? I know it wasn't totally cohesive but I thought they were the ones who were most often in conflict with England.


MM
"Last Ruler of Wales"

Llywelyn ap Gruffudd (1246-1282) was arguably the last independent prince among the Welsh to reign in any part of Wales. There was his brother Dafydd who followed him for six months in 1282/3 and after that some rebellions (the most significant being Owain Glyndwr from 1400-1409) but otherwise the family to which Llywelyn ap Gruffudd belonged - the House of Aberffraw - were the last rulers of any part of Wales in a legal and literal sense, maintaining their independence from the English Crown throughout most of the 12th and 13th Centuries, some time after the other realms (e.g. Powys and Deheubarth) had yielded.

"Main Ruler of Wales"

As to whether the house of Aberffraw to which Llywelyn the Great and Llywelyn the Last belonged were the "main" rulers of Wales, it can be safely said that the House of Aberrffraw had claimed paramountcy over all the other princely houses in Wales from their very foundation. They had a strong legal basis for doing so. Whether they were able to exercise that authority was a different matter. But more than any other dynast they dominated Wales consistently for over seven hundred years.

Their claim of paramountcy derived from the following:
  • The House of Aberffraw claimed its ancient ancestry lay with the far older 'House of the North'. This northern house were male line descendants of King Coel the Old (c.350-420AD), the last Roman "Dux" of northern Britannia who appears to have ruled from Eboracum, modern York. They asserted this claim through Merfyn Frych, king of Gwynedd (825-844AD) who was descended in the male line from Llywarch Hen (r.534-608) and before that Coel the Old (Colius Dux Britanniae).
  • The House of Aberffraw also claimed its ancestry lay with the 'House of Cunedda' through Essylt, the mother of Merfyn Frych. Essylt was the daughter of King Cynan of Gwynedd - the last of the House of Cunedda. He was a male line descendant of Cunedda Wledig whose right to Wales was through conquest; having driven out the Irish from Wales in c.370AD and ruled most of Wales until his death, c.425).
  • The House of Cunedda, ancestors of the House of Aberffraw via Essylt, mother of Merfyn, included King Cadwaladr ap Cadfan (reigned 625-634) and his son King Cadwallon the Blessed (655-682), who apart from being kings of Gwynedd were the last two named "High Kings of Britain".
  • Merfyn Frych, who I mentioned previously, was succeeded by his son Rhodri the Great (Rhodri Mawr). Rhodri united almost all of Wales through marriage and conquest. When Rhodri died his great realm was divided out between his three sons; the eldest son, Anarawd, and his heirs became the kings of Gwynedd and were known as the "House of Aberffraw"; the younger sons (Merfyn and Cadell) and their descendants became the kings of Powys and Deheubarth (respectively). During Rhodri Mawr's lifetime he put in place a system whereby his younger sons, Merfyn and Cadell, paid homage to his elder son, Anarawd. The younger sons swore that both they and their successors in Powys and Deheubarth (known as the Houses of Mathrafal and Dinefwr respectively) would likewise owe homage - for ever - to the descendants of Anarawd, the Kings of Gwynedd of House Aberffraw.
  • King Anarawd (878-916) was styled "King of the Britons" in the Annals Cambrae in acknowledgement of these circumstances.
  • King Gruffydd ap Cynan of Gwynedd (1081-1137), a direct descendant of Anarawd (male line, of course) reinforced the homage of lesser princes among the Welsh
  • King Owain ap Gruffydd (1137-1170), his son, also claimed to be "King of the Welsh" and was acknowledged as the foremost prince among the Welsh.
  • Prince Llywelyn ap Iorwerth (1195-1240), the grandson of Owain ap Gruffydd and popularly known as Llywelyn the Great, was acknowledged by all the other Welsh princes as their liege-lord at the Council of Aberdyfi in 1216 and recognised as "Prince of Wales" by King Henry III of England in the Treaty of Worcester (1218).
  • Prince Dafydd ap Llywelyn (1240-1246) was also acknowledged as Prince of Wales and paramount ruler of Wales (owing fealty to the King of England) during his short reign
  • Prince Llywelyn ap Gruffydd (1246-1282), nephew of Dafydd, was also recognised as Prince of Wales by Henry III in the Treaty of Montgomery (1267) and briefly by his successor, Edward I. He received the homage of all the other Welsh rulers in the 1250s and enforced his rule across all 'Waliae Pura' (that is those parts of Wales ruled by Welshmen). However, Llywelyn refused to to swear fealty to Edward I and was eventually overthrown by the armies of England in 1282.

So, when Llywelyn asserted that he was the rightful ruler of Wales he had a lot of precedence to back him up. This was why he would not tolerate the dastardly activities of Gruffydd ap Gwenwynwyn, the Prince of Powys and why the princes of the House of Dinefwr flocked to him. Llywelyn's ancestors had usually been the main rulers of Wales and because of the settlement made between the sons of Rhodri Mawr could claim paramountcy over all the Welsh (except Gwent which remained outside the lands of Rhodri) on a legal basis.

As such, the living heirs of the House of Aberffraw, in the male line, are not only the living heirs of Owain ap Gruffydd, "King of the Welsh" but are also the heirs of Rhodri Mawr and before that of Cadwallon and Coel Hen in an unbroken line stretching back more than sixty generations to the end of the Roman Empire. Heritage indeed.
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  #45  
Old 01-24-2014, 05:55 PM
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You make some very pertinent points, Deheubarth, and I am inclined to agree with you on many of them. I am an admirer of Prince Charles too, however, I don't see why the title "Prince of Wales" cannot be detached from the English Royal Family after Charles ascends the throne. The eldest son of the English king could be styled Earl of Chester or Duke of York, like it was before Edward I. However one point you made interested me, you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deheubarth View Post

6. The Anwyl family are not the only descendants in a direct male line of one of the sons of Owain Gwynedd - in fact descendants exist from an elder son than the one the Anwyl's descend from.
Which of the sons of Owain was this? I have heard some talk about descendants of Dafydd ab Owain... do you have any evidence for this (or any other son of Owain)? Which family alive today can claim this heritage and how? More details please!!!
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  #46  
Old 02-25-2014, 04:53 AM
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Hi James. I am in communication with Evan Anwyl from time to time. It looks as if his family is facing extinction in the male line, since his son Daffyd, has two daughters, his cousin Roger has no children, while the other cousin Philip has two daughters. If Daffyd's wife doesnot give birth to a son, his male family line will end when Daffyd dies. Let's hope for a son.
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  #47  
Old 03-12-2014, 12:39 AM
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Maybe you should tell him to get a DNA test done then. I'm sure there's many people with an exceeding amount of curiosity as to what it may be and it'd be a shame if we never know and they die out. :P

Have to disagree about why Aberfraw would have primacy.

1. Descended from the Coeling opens up the can of worms that there's probably others, and at that Merfyn going off to form his own kingdom would suggest he was a junior member of that dynasty.

2. High Kings seemed to have been elective, so who held that title had no baring on their children nor their descendants.

3. Rhodri united *almost* all of Wales. Which isnt all of Wales, and at this time the Britons inhabited Cornwall and the North still. Hes never referred to as High King nor King of the Britons.

4. System Rhodri introduced wasnt a system at all, he tried to copy Charlemagne's succession by splitting his Kingdom between sons with one as overlord- didnt work there either. Even though he tried to keep it all under Anarawd, it doesnt mean any changes he made in governance or succession actually have any baring as he wasn't ruler of anyone outside his own Kingdom (Not High King, and probably not senior descent of the Coeling either)


On the Charles subject though, I prefer to look at it this way: Its a duty to him. One day he'll be King and that duty will be passed to William. I dont think it should be something passed off like a hand me down between living people, its disrespectful of the people and those men who had their heads paraded around London when they were relieved of such duty.
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  #48  
Old 04-24-2014, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Frankcom View Post
You make some very pertinent points, Deheubarth, and I am inclined to agree with you on many of them. I am an admirer of Prince Charles too, however, I don't see why the title "Prince of Wales" cannot be detached from the English Royal Family after Charles ascends the throne. The eldest son of the English king could be styled Earl of Chester or Duke of York, like it was before Edward I. However one point you made interested me, you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deheubarth

6. The Anwyl family are not the only descendants in a direct male line of one of the sons of Owain Gwynedd - in fact descendants exist from an elder son than the one the Anwyl's descend from.

Which of the sons of Owain was this? I have heard some talk about descendants of Dafydd ab Owain... do you have any evidence for this (or any other son of Owain)? Which family alive today can claim this heritage and how? More details please!!!

The people who have a stronger and confirmed claim than the Anwyl family are the direct descendants of Hywel ab Owain Gwynedd, who had his inheritance taken from him by his younger brothers Rhodri (ancestor of the Anwyls) and Dafydd (ancestor of the Llywelyn princes).

This may be why the Anwyls have been very modest and never trumpeted their claim to seniority.

But there are also the descendants of Dafydd Goch, illegitimate son of Dafydd ap Gruffudd, brother of Llyweyln ap Gruffudd.

But having said this, the fact remains that there have been no clear rules of succession to welsh principalities - Llywelyn the Great gained the throne thanks to his father's two brothers disinheriting their elder brother Hywel ab Owain Gwynedd, completely contrary to the will of their father Owain Gwynedd who had made Hywel his heir. Llywelyn the Great passed over his older son Gruffudd to make his son Dafydd heir, whose mother was Joan, illegitimate daughter of King John.

In Wales in the Middle Ages the man who ruled was the one who could take and hold the throne by force of power.

And lastly, the old genealogies may not be entirely correct - who is to say which son was oldest or which descendants were not survived by more senior lines....

What we do know for sure is that the current Prince of Wales descends (thanks to the marriage between Henry Tudor/Henry VII and Elizabeth of York) from Gwladys Ddu daughter of Llywelyn the Great Prince of Gwynedd, and The Lord Rhys ap Gruffudd, Prince of Deheubarth. That seems like a good pedigree. Any to challenge it would enter into a 'family' debate, rather than be between people of unrelated heritage.

When Henry VII became King, he added the red dragon to his arms, closed an old chapter with the realisation of the conclusion of an old prophesy that the crown of Britain would be recovered, and began a new one, which for people in Wales at the time drew a line under the wars with the kings of England as they were Welsh now! Henry's descendant sits on the throne of Britain to this day.
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  #49  
Old 04-29-2014, 07:18 PM
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Talaith Aberffraw - the Royal House of Gwynedd and Wales

I am very interested in these "direct descendants of Hywel ab Owain Gwynedd". The Anwyl family have proven lineage from numerous sources and are in an unbroken patrilineal line of descent - which is essential because under Welsh Law/custom the royal title was normally inherited under a form of agnatic primogeniture with some features of tannistry. Possession was nine-tenths of the law but nevertheless lawful claimant was agnatic, in the male line, and not to or via a woman - unreasonable though that seems!

Can you provide me with a list of descendants from Hywel ab Owain? Presumably they appear in Merrick's Heraldic Visitations?

I have researched Dafydd Goch and his line appears to die out or at least has no documented descendants after about 1600. It's not saying they don't exist just there is no way of telling if they are real and chances are they don't know either.

I don't doubt what you say but please understand my scepticism because anything can be claimed without evidence.

Best regards

j
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  #50  
Old 01-15-2015, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deheubarth View Post
The people who have a stronger and confirmed claim than the Anwyl family are the direct descendants of Hywel ab Owain Gwynedd, who had his inheritance taken from him by his younger brothers Rhodri (ancestor of the Anwyls) and Dafydd (ancestor of the Llywelyn princes).

This may be why the Anwyls have been very modest and never trumpeted their claim to seniority.

But there are also the descendants of Dafydd Goch, illegitimate son of Dafydd ap Gruffudd, brother of Llyweyln ap Gruffudd.

But having said this, the fact remains that there have been no clear rules of succession to welsh principalities - Llywelyn the Great gained the throne thanks to his father's two brothers disinheriting their elder brother Hywel ab Owain Gwynedd, completely contrary to the will of their father Owain Gwynedd who had made Hywel his heir. Llywelyn the Great passed over his older son Gruffudd to make his son Dafydd heir, whose mother was Joan, illegitimate daughter of King John.

In Wales in the Middle Ages the man who ruled was the one who could take and hold the throne by force of power.

And lastly, the old genealogies may not be entirely correct - who is to say which son was oldest or which descendants were not survived by more senior lines....

What we do know for sure is that the current Prince of Wales descends (thanks to the marriage between Henry Tudor/Henry VII and Elizabeth of York) from Gwladys Ddu daughter of Llywelyn the Great Prince of Gwynedd, and The Lord Rhys ap Gruffudd, Prince of Deheubarth. That seems like a good pedigree. Any to challenge it would enter into a 'family' debate, rather than be between people of unrelated heritage.

When Henry VII became King, he added the red dragon to his arms, closed an old chapter with the realisation of the conclusion of an old prophesy that the crown of Britain would be recovered, and began a new one, which for people in Wales at the time drew a line under the wars with the kings of England as they were Welsh now! Henry's descendant sits on the throne of Britain to this day.
Can probably tell senior lines from DNA: genetic distance and what not- you can tell if some one came from the same region later and how closely they share an ancestor. Think something that's being forgotten here is that "Wales" is an external term placed on the Brythonic people by Anglo-Saxons. Rhodri and his sons probably still referred to themselves as being Brythonic - and considering their welcoming of the Men Of The North in 900ish - if one of those individuals was from the ruling house (Alt Cut utilized a clan structure) then it stands to reason that they have seniority as leaders of the Brythonic people.
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  #51  
Old 01-31-2015, 01:51 PM
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Some real difficulties come with exactly what protocol should be or is after well over half a century since the last reigning monarchs.


As far as I can see there are only 3 families of which a descendant would be accepted as a Welsh King:


The Kings of Gywnedd/House of Aberffraw
Owain Glyndwr
Henry Tudor ie the House of Windsor and Status Quo


As someone said earlier, it would be much more likely to be accepted if a descendant from the relatives of Gywnedd or Glyndwr made a claim- even if they had multiple females in the family line- rather than a male line heir of a little known prince from much farther back.


There are no doubt people who will only accept a direct male line heir from a welsh king due to “Welsh Law” or “Welsh custom”. A problem with that is firstly that it is becoming increasingly difficult to find any male line heirs with a genealogy that even nearly stacks up. Secondly in the current situation the Anwyl family are descended in the male line to Owain Gwynedd so you have a quirk of history that the House of Windsor is directly descended from more of the legitimate (ie House of Aberffraw) Kings of Gwynedd than the “true Kings of Wales”. My guess is that would be why they never made a claim; like it or not, Prince Charles has more Welsh royal blood in his veins than they do as he's descended from a daughter of Llewellyn the Great.


I wonder whether it is this fact that makes some Welsh monarchists so insistent that it has to be male line. Because if all you have left are descendants of Llewellyn the Great and if the Windsors are counted amongst them then why change anything?


Also which laws do you follow? The ones Llewellyn the Great put into practice making only sons born in wedlock legitimate? That would make Llewellyn the Last (and his shortly lived successor, his brother Daffyd) a pretender, as would his great nephew Owain Lawgoch.


I doubt you will find anyone who wants a Welsh King who would say that those three are illegitimate pretenders however anyone interprets Welsh law.


Hywel “The Good”'s maybe? They didn't really come into practice until the early mid 900's, he usurped the throne of Gwynedd (admittedly he was the Grandson of Rhodri the Great so it is a bit of a case of Family Wars), conveniently the “laws” of succession he passed legitimised his father's claim to the throne of Seisyllwg and also amazingly made him the only person who could claim the Kingdom of Dyfed. While you might say that he just codified the laws of the time and it was just a coincidence, there might be enough for someone to cast doubt that the law of Hywel should bind on Royal succession. As well, as someone pointed out earlier the laws were forgotten or ridden roughshod over all the time.


Someone on this forum put it best when he described Welsh succession law as a bit like that line from Pirates of the Caribbean; as more like guidelines than rules.


Male line would be preferable but could probably be got round in a similar way that Hywl got round it to claim Dyfed (and multiple others did- not to mention how the whole shebang started).


It would require a more than likely traceable decent from a prince, a lot of front, and a whole lot of luck. Frankly, even then I don't think people would go for it. Most Welsh who would go for a monarch are happy enough with the Winsors. Those who don't want them are more likely to be republicans. It's just a funny quirk of history that for the Welsh- unlike the Irish- most of the most prominent, successful, iconic people in the independence movement have been descended from royalty and have claimed to be Prince/King.


According to Peter C. Bartrum's genealogies of Wales there were descendants of Dafydd ap Gruffydd (last King/Prince of Gwynedd) through Dafydd Goch.


A group of Welsh scholars dismiss the claim but I think rather unfairly. One of the reasons is that the English wanted to kill everyone from the male line so it is impossible they would have overlooked this. The main problem for that hypothesis is that they acknowledge that Dafydd and Llewellyn the Last's brother Rhodri was allowed to live and have children. They also tried to cast huge doubt on Owain Lawgoch being who he said he was, the Wynn claim, the Anwyl one and they even question the accepted genealogy of Owain Glyndwr.


I do seem to remember that someone claimed to be a descendant of David Goch and also from his uncle Dafyed who reigned and was Llewellyn the Great's legal heir according to Bartrum's genealogies. I think there were half a dozen females in between (I could be wrong but I was under the impression that they all married armigers or clergy; not royalty which would have pretty undoubtedly given their sons a strong claim, but maybe enough given that the native royal lines in male decent got a decent chopping by the English), not the eldest child etc- I think they also suggested that they were descended from the brother of Owain Glyndwr and a Cousin of Sir John Wynn who the English courts decided was the de Jure Prince of Gywnedd. Not sure if so many lines makes it more likely or less that it's true. Plus when female decent is included there must be hundreds or thousands with the same bloodline and claim.


Too far back really but the estimate is that 25% of those with 4 welsh grandparents are directly descended from a group of early Welsh kings. Maybe a royal nation doesn't need a reigning monarch?
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  #52  
Old 01-31-2015, 07:51 PM
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Male line is easier to follow due to the ap's/ab's/map's and the Brythonic obsession with reciting ones history.

I guess if some one claimed it they'd be claiming Wales rather than the bits and bobs than any of those three lines claimed as their own.

There is a fourth line from Tudwal Gloff and its still maintains a male line (I say a, i think there could be numerous). Think that kind of blows it out in the open really. It's very convincing- even if there isnt a direct link its very close and at the very least has ancestral origins in the Hen Ogledd which would fit with Merfyn's own origins.
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