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  #21  
Old 09-08-2006, 09:53 PM
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The Asantehene's position is recognised in the Ghanaian Constitution,as are all the native Kings & chiefs.

The 'Maori King' IS a reigning monarch,but is not a ruling one.

This should definitely be transferred to 'Other Reigning Houses'.

Aidan.
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  #22  
Old 09-08-2006, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain
I have already made this point but will make it again, shouldn't New Zealand Royalty be under "Other Reigning Houses" rather than "Non Reigning Houses"? Surely the later is for royal families who no longer have a throne whereas the Maori royals do.
I think is a little more complicated than that. For me the Reigning Houses are the ones with a monarchic form of government established in their Constitution (Example Jordan, Great Britain, Monaco, Japan, Saudi Arabia, etc).
The former traditional royal houses fall more into the description of being mediatized by larger systems, be it monarchies or republics. They still continue their traditions and get support and respect from the government, but they are not the decision makers. The ones with representation at the UN.
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  #23  
Old 09-09-2006, 12:14 AM
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Toledo,the Asantehene has a similar position to the Kabaka of Buganda.They are both reigning monarchs.The Ghanaian government often seeks advice in traditional matters from the Asantehene.The Kabaka's position is slightly different,as Buganda is an autonomous state with its own Parliament & government.Here's a link with information about Buganda; www.buganda.com .

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  #24  
Old 09-09-2006, 06:54 AM
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Tradidional Monarchies and Sovereign Monarchies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royalist0007
The Asantehene's position is recognised in the Ghanaian Constitution,as are all the native Kings & chiefs.

The 'Maori King' IS a reigning monarch,but is not a ruling one.
This should definitely be transferred to 'Other Reigning Houses'.
Aidan.
That's nice to know but Warren's explanation was clear enough for me. Although if New Zealand decided to become independent of the last ties to the British monarchy and choose their own sovereign monarchy, they could go for their own traditional monarchy royal family if that was the consensus. Same with Ghana, if they decided to change the office of the president for an actual sovereign for the whole country.
But that's getting into the world of politics and I won't go there. As I understand it, a sovereign monarchy is quite a different system from a traditional monarchy. But is good we are discussing it since the terms King and Queen etc are used in both systems and could create a big confussion on many of our Forum members not familiar with the idea of a traditional ruler of a group using the title 'king, queen, prince(ss)' etc.
This is not about being right or wrong but about expanding and explaining the meaning of titles we associate with sovereign monarchies.

Traditional monarchies are very revered each in their own way. But they are still part of a larger nation that is either a republic or a monarchy. Countries like Great Britain, Netherlands, Tonga, Thailand, etc are nations that are officially sovereign monarchies. Even though traditional monarchies do outnumber countries with a monarchical system they are not the same. It's just a different 'species' of the same system that have evolved individually to fit the needs of their particular environment. Thus, they are a different category, like apples and oranges. I think it would be easier to understand their importance by cataloging their system of government according to other traditinal monarchies the same way we place monarchies like Britain, Japan, Luxembourg, Brunei etc at the same level. For example, the traditional monarchy of the Maori would be more at the same level of the traditional monarchies of the African and Asian continents as the monarchy in Britain could be compared at the same level as the one in Japan or Jordan.

And please don't get me wrong just because I used the word 'level'. It's not one superior to another one, they are just different systems. One gubernamental and the other one more on the scale of tradition and heritage. To each its own. Same thing we do with cataloging different Republican systems.
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  #25  
Old 09-10-2006, 07:08 AM
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And back to the topic about New Zealand's royalty...
This site has data from the year 1966 about the Maori King Election and Coronation

This one is about The History of the Maori Wars and the origin and first establishment of the Maori Kings tradition


This last one below, from the BBC, not only reports on the news of the election of a new King, but when you scroll down we see an explanation of the terms used in the article:

Words in the News: Maori new king
23 August, 2006 - Published 10:48 GMT
quotes from the article:
"...The Maori King movement, known as kingitanga, began in 1858, partially in response to the colonisation of New Zealand by the imperial forces of Britain's Queen Victoria. A treaty signed by a number of Maori chiefs at Waitangi in the North Island ceded New Zealand to the British Crown. It stated that if Maori wanted to sell their land then they could only deal with Queen Victoria's authorised agents.
Some North Island Maori sought to reach a common position on the use of their land. To help this goal, the first Maori King was created -- he was Potatau Te Wherowhero of the Tainui tribe in the central North Island region of Waikato...

definitions from the article:
sovereign: a supreme ruler; a king, queen, emperor, empress or the equivalent
tribal ancestry: the origins of a group of communities linked by social, economic, religious or blood ties and usually having a common culture and dialect and a recognized leader
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  #26  
Old 09-10-2006, 08:59 PM
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Toledo,the 'Maori King' is not the monarch of all the Maoris.There are separate Maori monarchies in other parts of New Zealand.The most influential of these is that of Ngati Tuwharetoa,whose monarch is Paramount Chief Tumu Te Heu Heu (since 1997).

Aidan.
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  #27  
Old 09-12-2006, 08:35 PM
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To All Out There There Is Only One Moari Monarch. He Or She Is The Head Of The Kingitanga Or King Movement. The Others Are Marely Cheifs And Have No Say Over The King Movment. So Please Stop The Arguing. King Tuhitia Is The Only Moari Sovereign.

Mark Onehi
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  #28  
Old 09-14-2006, 12:35 AM
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Onehi
To All Out There There Is Only One Moari Monarch. He Or She Is The Head Of The Kingitanga Or King Movement. The Others Are Marely Cheifs And Have No Say Over The King Movment. So Please Stop The Arguing. King Tuhitia Is The Only Moari Sovereign.

Mark Onehi
Mark,King Tuheitia Paki is really the King of Tainui.To say that Paramount Chief Tumu Te Heu Heu of Ngati Tuwharetoa is not a Maori monarch is wrong.

As for saying that the Maoris are one nation,that is also wrong.Coming from Wanganui,I have heard the distinctive Wanganui Maori dialect being spoken,but I have never learnt any dialects of the Maori language.

Aidan.
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  #29  
Old 09-14-2006, 12:50 AM
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Maori case could be compared to Etrusc one, I think. Etrusc were a single people, speaking the same language and having the same tradition, but they lived in State-Cities and everyone of them had a King named the Lucumon.

We can said almost the same thing for ancient Greeks. They were all Greeks (Helenos), but they have different kind of governements depending on the region or the cities. Athenas had a democracy, but Macedonia, Sparta and other parts had Monarchies. Sparta had a system who was very ineteresting: two Monarchs were sovereign and ruled for equal quantity of time, alterning themselves in the rule of the country.

However, Greece was many countries and a same "Nation": the shared language, Gods and traditions. They all went to Olympic Games honoring the same Gods and considered themselves as being the same people...Of course, this wouldn't avoid the war between them!

Vanesa.
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  #30  
Old 09-14-2006, 01:31 AM
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Vanesa,the Maoris are a very tribal people like the Scots,but the Scots learned to put aside their differences along clan lines to become a nation.The Maoris haven't done this,so therefore,each tribe is a nation.

Aidan.
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  #31  
Old 09-26-2006, 10:10 PM
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Aiden

I dont mean to argue but I of all people should know how the moari King movement works because I am part of the moari royal family. My Great grand father is the second moari King, King Tawhiao. The Present King is My Cousin Twice removed. The Moari King movement was established so that Te Whero Whero, The First Moari King, would govern over all Moari people.
The Moari King or Queen is officially noticed as the King or Queen of the Moari People. Te Heu Heu still has to answer to the Moari Sovereign like how it was seen at Queen Te Atairangikahu's funeral, he still ecknowledged her as his Queen . Although he is a Paramount cheif He doesnt Have power of the Moari Courts and Moari Justice system as does the monarch.
Tuheitia is a King, as was his mother and predeccessors of her. They were monarch.
King and Paramount Cheif have totally different meaning.
They still have the lead of their tribes but at the end of the day The King is The King as it is in England, Tonga, denmark ect.

Mark Onehi
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  #32  
Old 09-27-2006, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Onehi
The Moari King or Queen is officially noticed as the King or Queen of the Moari People. Te Heu Heu still has to answer to the Moari Sovereign like how it was seen at Queen Te Atairangikahu's funeral, he still acknowledged her as his Queen .
The fact that we refer to the Maori King or Queen, and based on Mark's statement that the Paramount Chiefs show deference to the Maori Sovereign, should settle the matter as to who is recognised as pre-eminent.
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  #33  
Old 09-27-2006, 07:22 AM
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Talking Meaning of 'Paramount Chief'.

Mark,the meaning of 'Paramount Chief' is the same thing as a tribal king.There are many examples of Paramount Chiefs of countries under British protection who became kings after independence.The late King Moshoeshoe II of Lesotho was the Paramount Chief of Basutoland from 1960 until 1966,when Lesotho became independent within the British Commonwealth.King Sobhuza II of Swaziland was the Paramount Chief of Swaziland prior to 1967,when Swaziland became a protected state.Swaziland became fully independent within the British Commonwealth in 1968.

To say that King Tuheitia Paki is a monarch like the Queen of Great Britain is actually incorrect.His position is actually very similar to that of King Goodwill Zwelithini of Zululand.

What was intended & what actually occurred are 2 different things,as far as the Maori King Movement goes.The intention was to unite all Maori tribes,but in reality,they are not a united nation.

< ..ed political comments - Warren ..>

Aidan.
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  #34  
Old 09-27-2006, 04:16 PM
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Aidan

You are indeed right about all moari tribes coming together but as it was said on the national and international television broadcast and at turangiwaewae the Paramount cheifs of New Zealand or recognised Te Arikinui Dame Te Ata i arangikahu as their QUEEN. 10 paramount cheifs maybe more all stood at the end of her casket and recognised her for her position. Each and everyone of them all said "Your Grace, our Queen". If I remember correctly there is a saying which brought the negotiations of electing a moari king to a slight halt in 1889 i think it was, New Zealand cannot be ruled by 2 kings, Tawhiao Moari King 2 proved that saying wrong. "He mahi, He inoi, he moe, he mahi ano" that was his saying was Ï work, I pray, I sleep and then I work again", this is what proved that saying wrong. This is why QERII recognised the Maori Queen as a queen. King Tuheitia is indeed king of tainui but as it said on the monument erected in east Taupo, KING TE WHERO WHERO WAS ELECTED KING OF ALL MOARI PEOPLE AS IS HIS DECENDEANTS>

Mark Onehi
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  #35  
Old 09-27-2006, 11:31 PM
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Mark,I am very aware of how influential & how popular Te Arikinui Dame Te Ataairangikaahu was.Despite the intention of the Tainui monarchy of uniting the Maoris,this has largely failed to a large degree,because the Maoris are so tribalised in terms of their identity.

It is possible to have one native monarch being under the suzerainty of another native monarch.In this case,it is Paramount Chief Tumu Te Heu Heu of Ngati Tuwharetoa who is under the suzerainty of King Teiheitia Paki of Tainui.Both Maori monarchs are in turn under the suzerainty of Queen Elizabeth II.

Do you see where I am coming from?

Aidan.
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  #36  
Old 09-28-2006, 06:57 PM
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Aidan
Yes I do see where you are coming from, But as I said in previous messages King Tiheitia Paki is still the King of Moari hence the Saying (Moari King) Cheif Te Heu Heu of tuwharetoa does not carry that title.
This is where I am coming from, Maori King and P/Cheif have difference in meaning.
Although the Moari King does not carry the title of "His Majesty" he is still recognised as the King.
Te Heu Heu is indeed the Paramount Cheif of Tuwharetoa I will agree with you on that but in saying that I strongly believe not only on my behalf but my position in the Kahui Ariki King Teheitia Paki is King. Wether it by of Moari or just of Tanui he is still the Moari King.
This also fit into the same desciption as The Cook Island Royalty of whom my Grandmother was once the head of, they are also protected under the Commonwealth but in turn They respect and love their Queen or Pa Ariki. QERII is the Head of State but The tribes of all the Cook Islands do not recognise her as the Queen.

Mark Onehi
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  #37  
Old 09-29-2006, 03:37 AM
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Mark,there is a big difference between being the king of a nation & being the king of a tribe.The term 'Maori King,in my view,is strictly incorrect,as there isn't a Maori nation as such.There are something like 72 tribes,so that means there is something like 72 Maori nations.

The Cook Islands Maoris are in a similar situation.There is also not a single Cook Islands Maori nation.They are very insular in terms of their identity,as they identify themselves as Rarotongans,Penrhyn Islanders,& Aitutakians,etc.
Pa Ariki is the Paramount Chieftainess of Rarotonga,but she cannot claim to be the Cook Islands Maori Queen,as most of the other islands in the Cook Islands also have their own chiefs.

Do you see where I am coming from?

Despite the fact that I am a British New Zealander of Scots descent,I am a very fierce Royalist who believes very strongly that New Zealand needs to have a House of Chiefs with a role very much like the Fijian Great Council of Chiefs to a certain extent.That way,the Maoris can play a very strong role through their hereditary chiefs,kings,& paramount chiefs.

Aidan.
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  #38  
Old 09-29-2006, 08:49 PM
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Wel, Aidan. Your post makes a lot of sense and I agree with yur views. Hope that some day, New Zealand culd have a strong monarchy.

Vanesa.
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  #39  
Old 10-03-2006, 06:29 PM
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Yes Aidan I do see where you are coming from. But what you said about my home land is in part wrong. I to am a fierce royalest and I am part of both Moari and Cook Island Moari royal families. Once upon a time the Cook Islands was an absolute Monarchy and the Monarch then was Queen Makea and she was indeed just a paramount cheiftaness and there was other cheifs but Queen makea was the Head of the executive coucil, Queen of avarua and in turn the Queen of The Cook Islands. The Pa Ariki is the Head of the House of Ariki and she and she alone makes the law final. The Cook Islands is a semi independant state and is to apart of the commonwealth. This I know because it is my mother who is now the Pa Ariki or formally Recognised as the Rarotongan Queen. I will one day take that position because I am the oldest. I am known as the Ngaine Purotu or the Oldest son of the Pa Ariki. As far as my position goes in the Kahui Ariki I adimntley hope that one day New Zealand becomes a self ruling state. I thank you for the thread you gave me, I had a good say of what I believe on it.

Mark Onehi
aka Maakaruaitimetuaanga Kokaua Ariki III
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  #40  
Old 10-25-2006, 06:29 AM
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Mark,the Cook Islands Maori chiefs have no constitutional functions in the strict sense of the word.It is the Queen's Representative (a viceregal equivilant to Governor or Governor-General) who assents to legislation that is passed by the Cook Islands Parliament,not Pa Ariki.The House of Ariki may be called upon to advise on cultural & traditional matters only.Beyond that,they have no constitutional power.

Aidan.
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