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  #201  
Old 05-19-2010, 08:30 AM
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Dear Benjamin,
Thanks for right understanding of things.
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  #202  
Old 05-19-2010, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varaz View Post
Al Bina herself makes conclusions: "It is unfortunate that Princess Anna's children are unlikely to be a part of the succession line."
We answer: We think that any sharp-conclusions made by people from outside of Royal Family into the account of the law of succession simply obscenely and ethically wrong. We simply face infringement of Human Rights and Dynastic Law. Who will inherit succession rights, it must be determined by the Head of the concrete royal house.
It has been most kind of you to comment on my post.
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  #203  
Old 05-19-2010, 11:27 AM
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Dear Al Bina, excuse us if we have offended you. We did not wish to offend you intentionally. We simply remind of the rights concerning royal houses, that`s all. We talk about very delicate theme like Royalty, thus we should be more natty I guess...
Please don`t take close to heart...
Sincerely, Varaz
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  #204  
Old 05-20-2010, 09:12 AM
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Georgian people,Church,etc will never accept a woman or a Malania surname as a head of the Georgian Royal family even if kart kakheti bagartionis descendent Nugzar whan.
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  #205  
Old 05-20-2010, 10:20 AM
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Dear giorgi, I really wonder why are you so offensive and aggressive, are you hate Georgia and its royalty or what ? Or, maybe you have some personal hostility with the Royal house of Georgia ? Please feel free to explain to us and to all members of this forum the real reason of it.
Actually you cannot ignore the authentic rights of Crown Prince Nugzar thus nor his rightful successor HRH Princess Anna and consequently you offend the child of the Princess? Yes, very kind of you... a courageous act !
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  #206  
Old 05-20-2010, 02:19 PM
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Varaz Say.according to the plan of the Patriarch, before constitutional monarchy could be accepted by the country, the child born from this marriage would have to grow up so he could become the future monarch,

Varaz say:
We think that any sharp-conclusions made by people from outside of Royal Family into the account of the law of succession simply obscenely and ethically wrong. We simply face infringement of Human Rights and Dynastic Law. Who will inherit succession rights, it must be determined by the Head of the concrete royal house.

Varaz say;That would be HRH Princess Anna's exclusive right as HRH Prince Nugzar has designated her as his heir, and the more ancient history and traditions of ancient Georgia provides for female succession, when no male heir can be found, because succession is primogeniture
This determination is absolute and will not change.

are you contradicting yourself, first do you say that the patriarch plans was a child, later that nugzar it can change the laws, later that the women can be the head of the family, and why not the patriarch support the all ready born anas daughters?

and why is not the nugzar older sister the chiefs of the gruzinsky family?.

and I do not insult anybody, when I can call anybody by his surname that is it is not any insult.

or not to be a nobleman its an insult?

i sorry but its the reality.
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  #207  
Old 05-21-2010, 07:43 AM
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Hello giorgi,
If you have noticed as I wrote to Benjamin: "unfortunately plans of Patriarch have changed..."
Before the wedding His Royal Highness Nugzar trusted this plan ( the child born from this marriage would have to grow up) and raised a question about legal privileges of Princess Anna towards her future spouse. As you know, according to the historic tradition of Georgian kingdom, it is not obligatory for the representative of Royal Family that his/her marriage was equal, so, the marriage with David was acceptable. However, Royal Status is assigned to future successor by the Royal Line, whether it be male or female. In our case, the Royal Dignity would be assigned on successor from Princess Anna’s side, as high-noble David does not belong to the Royal Line, about which he (David) was elucidated more than once before the marriage.

Now as for Princess Anna`s daughters - We still have asked members of Chancellery about this matter and they really surprised us, they said: "by blessing of the Patriarch and by the royal decree of contract signed both from the prince and from his first son-in-law the decree was defining - the born children from this marriage will carry the Royal surname of Bagrationi-Gruzinski."
Somebody knew about it ?... Thanks to royal chancellery and its members for such an important information !
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  #209  
Old 05-29-2010, 08:29 AM
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The Truth about Leonida Georgievna Kirbi (Bagration-Mukhranski).
Part 1.

Leonida Georgievna was born 23 (on October, 6th) 1914 in Tiflis, in a family of the former leader of Dusheti district nobility of Tiflisky province., prince George Aleksandrovicha Bagration – Muhransky and of the Polish noblewomen origin Elena Sigizmundovna Zlotnitskaja. (Daughters of the linear controller of Vladikavkaz railways. Cheslava-Sigizmund Zlotnitsky).

Leonida Georgievna belonged to the Muhransky high-nobiliary branch of Bagrationis, branche separated from reigning Bagrations in the beginning of 16 century and owned «Mukhrani fief». It is necessary to notice that the lawful head of the House of Bagrations lives in Georgia till today, HRH Crown Prince Nugzar Petrovich Bagration of Georgia, the direct descendant of last King of Georgia - George XII.
Thus, Leonida Georgievna from father side does not belong even to the reigning House of Bagrationis, but from one of the line which representatives never occupying the Throne of Georgia.

In 1921 after overthrowing of the Menshevic government of Noe Zhordania, George Bagration- Mukhransky family has gone abroad, however in 1923 they have returned back. In 1931 the family by means and help of M.Gorki has left the USSR. Leonida Georgievna has grown in France, and in 1934 in Nece has married the American financier Samner Moore Kirbi. For Mr. Kirbi it was already a third marriage. From this marriage in 1935 daughter Elena was born. In 1937 the couple has divorced. Samnera Moore Kerbi was waited by sad destiny, in 8th of April 1945 he was lost in German camp Buhenvald.

With the beginning of the Second World War friends have helped Leonida Georgievna with daughter Elena, to leave for Spain. There in 1946 the citizen of the USA Mrs. Leonida Kirbi, has got acquainted with the Head of the Russian Imperial House Grand duke Vladimir Kirillovich. On August, 13th, 1948 on the eve of the "Uspensky post" they have secretly got married in the Greek church in Switzerland.

On this moment it is necessary to concentrate more carefully on this particular case. In 1911 Princess of Imperial Blood Tatyana Konstantinovna has decided to marry by love on prince Konstantin Aleksandrovich Bagration-Mukhranski, the second cousin of the Leonidas father Georgi. This marriage has been estimated as morganatic by the Russian imperial House. Emperor Nikolay II asked the permission to fulfilment of marriage to Empress Maria Fedorovna as the senior in a sort. From Princess Tatyana Konstantinovna was taken renunciation of Throne rights of succession. (Later "the moving chancellery of Grand duke Vladimir Kirillovich" has tried to hide this left-handed marriage).

Thereby unequal position Bagration – Muhransky in relation to Romanovs was underlined. It is indicative, as senator Korevo, without assuming in 1922 whom the successor of Grand duke Kiryl Vladimirovicha will select to itself in spouses, resulted marriage of prince of Imperial Blood of Tatyana Konstantinovna with prince Bagration – Mukhranski as a left-handed marriage example «with the person who does not have own advantage, that is not belonging to any reigning or sovereign house».

It is necessary to notice also that the Synod of Russian Orthodox Church Abroad having received the telegramme of the aunt of Vladimir Kirillovicha – HIH. Grand duchess Elena Vladimirovna, the princess of Greece, has then forbidden wedding of the Grand duke with Mrs. Leonida Kirbi . But they have hastily left to Switzerland and got married in the Greek church. (Vladimir Kirillovich will explain later it in "naive" tradition: «Then in Madrid there was no orthodox church (!!!!) the Nearest was in Lausanne (Switzerland), therefore we have gone there»...)
To be continued
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  #210  
Old 05-30-2010, 10:25 AM
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can you tell us some interesting thinks?

the nugzar grand father (petre)wife surname?if she was a regent a restauran and when the nugzar father born petre was 65 year old?

nugzar mather surname?

nugzar wife surname?

anas daughters surnames?
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  #211  
Old 06-01-2010, 05:56 AM
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The Truth about Leonida Georgievna Kirbi (Bagration-Mukhranski).
Part 2.

Thus Grand duke Vladimir Kirillovich - in 1948 has entered the Morganatic MARRIAGE from dissolved American civil Mrs. Leonida Kirbi, nee Bagration-Muhranski. After that marriage almost all Members of the Russian Imperial House have torn the relations with Vladimir Kirillovich. The exception was made by his uncle - Grand duke Andrey Vladimirovich, itself married to ballerina Matilde Kshesinsky. As to the Russian colony in Madrid, it has stopped any relations with Vladimir Kirillovich, considering that Leonida Georgievna cannot name itself "grand duchess" in any way.

It is necessary to notice that the family of Grand duke Vladimir Kirillovich - after unworthy and doubtful business - of operations of prince Irakli Bagration-Mukhranski (brother of Leonida Georgievna and grandfather of David), there were rather intense relations with generalissimo F.Franko and for some years they have been compelled to leave Spain.

In 1953, at Grand duke Vladimir Kirillovich and Leonida Georgievna was born the daughter, Maria Vladimirovna, nowadays self-appointedly claiming the Russian Throne. In 1969 Grand duke Vladimir Kirillovich declares the daughter «the successor of the Russian throne». However their Highnesses Princes of Imperial Blood- Vsevolod Ioannovich, Roman Petrovich and Andrey Aleksandrovich «as representatives of three branches of the Russian Imperial House» declared the protest. In the protest in particular it was said that «the marital status of the Spouse of Prince Vladimir Kirillovich equally with what Spouses of other Princes of Imperial Blood have, and we do not recognize behind her the right to be called as "grand duchess". This split remains till today; the majority of recent descendants of the House of Romanovs did not recognize use of a grand-ducal title by Leonida Georgievna.


For the first time after emigration Leonida has visited Russia together with Grand duke Vladimir Kirillovich from 5th to 11th of November, 1991. After death of the spouse, in 1992 Leonida Georgievna even more often began to visit Russia.

After of criticism act from Archbishop Antony of Los-Angeles in address of Vladimir Kirilovichs branch, Leonida Georgievna has publicly renounced Russian Orthodox Church in abroad.

In 1992 under the order of the president of the Russian Federation Boris Yeltsin, to Leonida itself and daughter Maria and grandson George have handed over passports of citizens of the Russian Federation, later of that, on elections of 1993 Leonida Georgievna has acted with support of the Kremlin and on elections in the State Duma was agitating for the authorities. (A democratic choice of Russia).

After death of Vladimir Kirillovicha, the name of head of the House of Romanovs began to use his daughter – Maria Vladimirovna, Leonida Georgievna helped in all her daughter, together they arranged «the highest visits», distributed "imperial" orders, ranks and titles.

Since 1995 Leonida Georgievna tried to achieve de jure recognition of "the Russian Imperial House», addressing in the letter to the chief of Security service of the president to general A.V.Korzhakov she tried to manage to get "the guest house in St.-Petersburg or in Moscow, or in immediate proximity from them".

One more political action made by Leonida Georgievna was a propaganda trip across Russia in support of Boris Yeltsin on presidential election of 1996.

So in Paris under the patronage of Leonida Georgievna has arisen «Committee of support of Boris Yeltsin». Here, what exactly was told by the princess about Yeltsin: «these days I communicate with common people and I try to convince them that Boris Yeltsin - the true Russian man. I am well familiar with him and I can testify: he sincerely loves Russia and wishes no evil. He was not afraid to throw down a challenge to communistic system, has returned to Russians the historical truth, religion. Thanks to him reforms in Russia are carrying out. It is possible to speak freely. Freely to visit each other. Certainly, lots of problems remains. But each time, coming to Russia, I am convinced that it all becomes independent, more strong and finds lines of the civilised state ».

In 2002 was her last visit to Russia , in October of the same year at the age of 88-years she was comprehended by a serious illness. Doctors have rescued her life, but since then a state of health does not allow her any more to make distant moving and aviation flights.

The whole epoch has gone - an epoch in which all terrible fatal events of the last century were reflected. Leonida Georgievna personified old tradition in dialogue and behaviour.

All who personally knew her remember her proud bearing, the polite and attentive conversation full of advantage speech – speech of the person born before revolution.

It is so sad to observe nowadays - vulgar behaviour of her daughter Maria and grandson George – such a contrast … …


eternal rest to her!
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  #212  
Old 06-06-2010, 11:22 AM
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The late nobiliary law expert, Sir Iain Moncreiffe of that Ilk, PhD., LL.B, who was a member of the royal household of Queen Elizabeth II, perhaps summed things up best when he wrote: "[The] Bagration…dynasty had reigned in the male line as Kings from 886 until the 19th century, before the 17th century boyar family of Romanoff dispossessed them. Both Bagration and Romanoff are now dispossessed: which needs the official recognition of which?" ------------------------------ Decree of the Head of the Russian Imperial House, H.I.H. Grand Duke Wladimir Kirillovich, on the Recognition of the Royal Rank of the House of Bagration, 22 November/5 December 1946. His Royal Highness, the Infante Don Fernando of Spain, Prince of Bavaria, asked Me when his daughter, the Infanta Mercedes, was about to contract a marriage with Prince Irakly Georgievich Bagration of Moukhrani, whether, taking into account the independence of Georgia from 1918 to 1921 and the present position of its Royal Family, I could consider the proposed marriage to be an equal one. My reply, which was conveyed to the Infante through the intermediary of the Spanish Minister in Berne, the Count de Bailen, was in the affirmative, inasmuch as, after prolonged and careful study of the history of Georgia and of the Georgian question, and after consulting my uncle His Imperial Highness Grand Duke Andrei, brother of my late Father, and my advisers, and after correspondence with the historian, Professor M. Muskelishvili, I consider it right and proper to recognize the royal status of the senior branch of the Bagration family, as well as the right of its members to bear the title of Prince of Georgia and the style ... Ver másof Royal Highness. The present head of the family is Prince George. If Almighty God, in His mercy, grants the rebirth of our great empire, I consider it right that the Georgian language should be restored for use in the internal administration of Georgia and in her educational establishments. The Russian language should be obligatory for general use within the empire. I have decided to draw up this decree for the good of the Russian Empire and for the preservation of its territorial integrity in the future, and have deemed it right to affix my signature to it, in order to satisfy the legitimate national sentiments of the Georgian people and in the hopes of avoiding thereby a possible annexation of their fatherland by force of arms, in the event of its willful secession from the Russian Empire. (The original is signed in His Imperial Highness’s own hand:) Wladimir Sanlucar de Barrameda, 5 December 1946 --------------------------------- Decree of the Head of the Russian Imperial House, H.I.H. Grand Duke Wladimir Kirillovich, concerning His Marriage to H.R.H. Princess Leonida Georgievna, the Daughter of the Head of the Georgian Royal On this day was celebrated My Wedding with Princess Leonida Georgievna Bagration of Moukhrani, the daughter of the Head of the Georgian Royal House, Prince George Aleksandrovich. I decree that My Consort shall be granted the title Pious Grand Duchess Leonida Georgievna, with the style Imperial Highness. (The original is signed in His Imperial Highness’s own hand:) Wladimir Issued on 13 August 1948 Lausanne, Switzerland
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  #213  
Old 06-06-2010, 11:28 AM
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the patriarch Illia II stated at Sioni`s Cathredal that Leonida Bagration Mukhraneli was a member of the Georgian Royal family and declared the members of Bagration Mukhraneli of Georgia Branch as a Batonishvili`s (tsarevich).
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  #214  
Old 06-07-2010, 12:27 AM
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An article about the life and rule of Iberian king Vakhtang Gorgasali (447-502) - Messenger Online
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  #215  
Old 06-08-2010, 06:31 AM
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Funeral H.I.R.H. Leonida Romanova,by H.H.the Patriarch Illia II of all Georgia.

its very interesting H.H. Speach about the Mukhraneli`s Royal Family of Georgia.



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  #216  
Old 06-08-2010, 11:44 AM
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Thank you very much for posting that video, giorgi.

The Patriarch looks rather frail; I hope that he will be alright.

Can you tell us whether any members of the Georgian Royal Family attended the service that the Patriarch conducted for Grand Duchess Leonida?
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  #217  
Old 06-10-2010, 09:30 AM
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Dear giorgi: Please notice that the prince tells words: "I consider it right and proper to recognize..." and where is the word "lawful"? And who gave the right to Vladimir Kirilovich giving to high-nobiliary family of Bagration-Mukhranski the royal status of Gruzinski ??? He had no right to such act when he itself was just a simple emigrant from Russia. He, even been not recognized by the rest of Romanovs families at that time. This unlawful precedent became the beginning of all those illegal acts against the true royal house of Georgia. Otherwise why Vladimir Kirilovich got married with Leonida not in Spain but in Lausanne (Switzerland) ???

***And Please do not use Patriarch to satisfy your ambitions. Anyway the trnslation made by "X" person on this U-tube video is doubtful ! and even if it`s so, please, be kind and do not keep Patriarch misinformed.
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  #218  
Old 06-11-2010, 12:18 AM
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Varaz you can hear in georgian lenguge wath Patriarch say,no doubs about ,you worry?

leonida and Kiril married in Lausanne because in Spain was not a Orthodoz Church in this period ,and in wich comunist bureau married nugzar and his father??????.
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  #219  
Old 06-11-2010, 09:12 AM
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giorgi says: "leonida and Kiril married in Lausanne because in Spain was not a Orthodox Church in this period..."
We answer: First of all Leonida`s husband`s name was Vladimir not Kiril and secondly during that time in Spain already there was specially allocated temple for Russian colonies of emigrants since 1918, it is obvious ! Almost all the royal relatives of Vladimir were there and they were against of that marriage ( including Russian church in emigration), that is why he was compeled to marry in Switzerland - Not in Russian orthodox church but in Greek church ! hidden away from everybody !
As for your slander regarding marriages of Royal family representatives we will answer: HRH Prince Nugzar has been betrothed with the princess Leila Kipiani (Kipiani - one of the high-nobiliary houses of west Georgia) in a cathedral of Svetitskhoveli in 1971. Wedding ceremony was held by Archibishop Keratishvili.
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  #220  
Old 06-11-2010, 02:16 PM
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Thank you Varaz for the interesting and helpful on the succession subject.
I'd like to add some more information to support your point of view.

Note:
Although the Head of the House of Bagration-Mukhranski claims to be Head of the Royal House of Georgia, there is no historical, customary or legal justification for this claim. Salic laws of succession never applied to any of the Georgian Kingdoms. Indeed the final unification of the kingdoms of Kartli and Kakheti rests on female inheritance. There are numerous descendants in the natural and female lines, of the Houses of Kakheti and Kartli, and of Imereti, possessing superior claims to Regalty.
http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Georgia/georgia.htm

NOBILITY:Copyright ©Christopher Buyers
The Georgian nobility was largely organised on a military basis, the army being divided into several corps represented by "banners" (or drosha), each commanded by the great grandees of the realm. These grandees were petty sovereigns within their own domains, enjoying the power of life and death, but owing allegience to the king. During the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, the order of precedence was as follows:

1) H.M. The Most High King.
2) Princes of the Blood (batonishvili).
3) Great Officers of State:
a) Patriarch-Catholicos.
b) Chief Secretary (Mtsignobarth-Ukhutsesi).
c) Lord High Steward (Mandaturth-Ukhutsesi).
d) Lord High Constable (Amir-Spasalari).
e) Lord High Treasurer (Medchurchleth-Ukhutsesi).
f) Lord Great Chamberlain (Msakhurth-Ukhutsesi).
g) Grand Armourer (Meahjret-Ukhutsesi).

4) Grandees of the first class (Sul-didibuli-tavadi) of the Kingdom of Kartli, commanders of banners (drosha):
a) Prince of Mukhrani (Mukhrani-batoni), head of the house of Bagrationi-Mukhrani.
http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Georgia/nobility.htm

Thus princes Bagration-Muhranski were not Princes of the Blood in Kingdom of Georgia.
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