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  #181  
Old 02-15-2011, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Russophile View Post
I was just disgusted to find out that Queen Emma and her family, on a transAmerican trip via train were so shabbily treated by the Americans due to the color of their skin.
Aloha. I think you mean Prince Alexander Liholiho (Kamehameha IV), Queen Emma's husband. Queen Emma was lucky enough to escape prejudice since she was a fourth white herself. The story was that Alexander Liholiho was accompany Gerrit P. Judd and his brother Lot Kapuaiwa to Europe and the United States on a diplomatic tour. He was told to get off the train by Americans who thought he was a slave. Not only that but in one incident a butler refused to served him or his brother because of their skin color. That would be the main reason Kamehameha IV was so anti-American and pro-British. Racisim is something the Hawaiian royals faced a lot from white people. Prince Jonah Kuhio onced punched a European count because he made fun of his race. During the Golden Jubilee of Queen Victoria, the King of Saxony and the King of the Belgians (man behind the whole Belgian Congo thing) refused to accompany Liliuokalani to the Jubilee supper because of her skin color! That was the fear with most Hawaiians in the 1890s because they believed if they were annexed to the US they would lose all their rights like the African-Americans because of their skin color.

PS: Anybody interested in Hawaiian history should check my Wikipedia page here is the link User:KAVEBEAR - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Mahalo!
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  #182  
Old 02-15-2011, 06:44 AM
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As I've implied above, it was made worse by the fact they were not even spared the prejudice in their own kingdom. Hawaii did not become an integral part of the US until statehood in 1959, though.

Through time you could always find good monarchs and bad monarchs, and Leopold II of Belgium fell into the latter. In fact, Emperor Franz Joseph of Austria described Leopold as a "thoroughly bad man", indicating what other royals thought of him.
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  #183  
Old 02-15-2011, 11:25 AM
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Kingdom of Hawaii Constitution of 1864 granted by HM Kamehameha V
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  #184  
Old 02-17-2011, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Kavebear View Post
...During the Golden Jubilee of Queen Victoria, the King of Saxony and the King of the Belgians (man behind the whole Belgian Congo thing) refused to accompany Liliuokalani to the Jubilee supper because of her skin color!
The Golden Jubilee was in 1887; here's a piece from earlier on, the 1881 Season in London...

"During the London season the Prince of Wales amused society by paying extraordinary attentions to King Kalakaua of Hawaii... At a party given by Lady Spencer on 13 July, the Prince insisted that the King of Hawaii should be accorded precedence over the German Crown Prince [later Kaiser Wilhelm II], who protested without avail. The Crown Prince was silenced by his brother-in-law's robust retort: 'Either the brute is a King, or he's a common or garden nigger; and if the latter, what's he doing here?'

The Prince of Wales took the King to a Lord Mayor's banquet at the Mansion House and to a Trinity House banquet four days later. He found him amiable and very interesting, and gave him a luncheon at Marlborough House. He made Christopher Sykes, Lord Charles Beresford and other friends give parties in Kalakaua's honour, and at the Marlborough House Ball on 22 July, which ended the London season, he again relegated his German brother-in-law to second place by asking King Kalakaua to open the royal quadrille with the Princess of Wales."

-> "King Edward the Seventh, the Most Edwardian of Them All" by Philip Magnus, paperback pp217-218.
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  #185  
Old 02-17-2011, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Warren View Post
The Golden Jubilee was in 1887; here's a piece from earlier on, the 1881 Season in London....
Read this book if you want to know more about Kalakaua's trip around the world. It was written by William N. Armstrong who accompanied him on the trip. See Around the world with a king - Google Books
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  #186  
Old 02-17-2011, 10:28 PM
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I remember now. The incident with Jonah Kuhio Kalanianaole and racism was when he was traveling in Europe with his wife after the overthrown of the Kingdom of Hawaii. It was in Geneva when a German count spoke out loudly about his dark skin color. Kuhio knocked out the count and a friend of the count tried challenging Kuhio to a duel, but Kuhio just fought his way out of the incident. BTW although Hawaii didn't become a state until 1950 it was a part of the US since 1898.
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  #187  
Old 02-19-2011, 12:56 AM
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Hawaii became a state in August, 1959.
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  #188  
Old 02-19-2011, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Russophile View Post
I was just disgusted to find out that Queen Emma and her family, on a transAmerican trip via train were so shabbily treated by the Americans due to the color of their skin.
It is truly awful.
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  #189  
Old 02-19-2011, 04:34 AM
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84-year-old Princess Abigail Kawananakoa is a descendant of the royal family that ruled the former nation of Hawaii more than a century ago, presiding from graceful Iolani Palace in downtown Honolulu.
Princess Abigail is the great grand-niece of Queen Kapiolani, who was married to the last King of Hawaii, David Kalakaua.
For decades Princess Abigail seeks for custom-made furniture, oil paintings and other treasures disappeared from Iolani palace after January 1893, when a small band of businessmen overthrew the monarchy. - Full article
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  #190  
Old 02-19-2011, 04:59 AM
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I'm jealous, I've always wanted to visit the Iolani Palace! I'm surprised at the juxtaposition between the grand exterior which looks so large/imposing and how small you said the bedrooms are!
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  #191  
Old 02-20-2011, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by PrincessKaimi View Post
It is truly awful.
History shows old monarchies being overthrown or otherwise being absorbed by others- e.g. Georgia by Russia, Hanover by Prussia, Two Sicilies et al by Sardinia-Piedmont, Korea and Ryukyu by Japan... the overthrow in Hawaii would be among those, which remains a subject of historical debate to this day.

At least African monarchies, though not sovereign, have survived colonialism and independence.
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  #192  
Old 02-20-2011, 03:20 AM
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You are absolutely right, David,
And this is very sad to know that the traditional monarchies in South Africa (6 of 13) which have survived are abolished by SAR president nowadays.
Is it possible to restore the Hawaiian monarchy via plebiscite?
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  #193  
Old 02-20-2011, 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Kasumi View Post
You are absolutely right, David,
And this is very sad to know that the traditional monarchies in South Africa (6 of 13) which have survived are abolished by SAR president nowadays.
Those six were Apartheid creations without historical legitimacy.

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Is it possible to restore the Hawaiian monarchy via plebiscite?
It would not be possible to make the State of Hawaii one as it would be unconstitutional. If the indigenous Hawaiians can attain recognition as a native people the same way as Native Americans have, maybe.
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  #194  
Old 03-05-2011, 01:13 PM
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If Hawaii was ever restored as a monarchy. There would be many candidates to the throne. The only rightful heirs are the Laanuis or the Kawananakoas as the highest ranking chiefs in the land and the closest to connection to the House of Kamehamhea and Kalakaua. There are many false pretenders like Akahi Nui (claimed descendant of Kamehameha I and Liliuokalani's sister) and Mahealani Kahau (claimed descendant of Hawaii's last king who was elected "head of state").
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  #195  
Old 03-17-2011, 11:25 PM
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I disagree about the "true heirs" of Hawaii, Kavebear. Hawai'i didn't work like that.

Dave V. Good point about the monarchies. I do believe it was best for Maui to concede to Hawai'i in the unification process, given what they knew was about to happen. The royalty of Mau'i and Oahu and Kauai (and probably the outlying islands) were treated well (as kinds of dukes) under the rule of the Big Island.
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  #196  
Old 03-19-2011, 10:20 PM
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It's my own opinion really. But when you say "Hawai'i didn't work like that." You got to remember Hawaii did work like that for thousands of years before the missionaries came. If your ancestors were ali'i you are an ali'i, if your family ruled you got the power; it was always the highest ranking chief in the land that ruled. But check .

Only the Mauian and Hawaiian chiefs actually benefited from Kamehameha's conquest really. The Oahuan chiefs had been virtually exterminated already in the war between King Kahahana of Oahu and King Kahekili of Maui in the 1780s and the Waipio conspiracy that followed. The Kauaian chiefs were removed from power after Prince Humehume's rebellion in 1824 and replaced by chiefs from the Big Island and Maui.

PS: Check this video out. One of the few video about Hawaiian history


and this one that is really false but the music and pictures are cool
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  #197  
Old 03-19-2011, 10:38 PM
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What I meant was this:

the Hawaiian Islands were settled about 1000 years (not thousands of years) before the coming of Europeans (circa 800 A.D.).

They did not follow Salic law, nor did they have a strictly lineal ali'i.

Families of ali'i could be raised to rule, or they could fall. If people failed to call one ali'i, one was not ali'i. If people were called ali'i nui, then they were. Kahunas and Kapunas (to use the simplest forms of the words) were usually of ali'i family, and were a sort of lesser ali'i (but could be ali'i nui as well, if people called them that).

That's what I meant. It didn't work like British royalty or French royalty or any of the descendant cultures of Proto-European monarchy.

It was Polynesian in nature and not nearly as male-dominated.

Thanks for posting the video (I've seen it before but it was good to see it again).

But long before Kamehameha I, Hawai'i had practices that were not entirely uniform across all its islands, but tended towards bilineality and fluidity. I believe the genes tell that story, but so does the genealogical chant of Kamehameha I, himself.

I disagree that all descendants of ali'i were automatically ali'i (especially if they were kapu breakers). But, there was a tendency to extend royal protocol to the children of ali'i, yes (and Kamehameha and his Queen were not the first or only to relax kapus).

For example, Queen Ka'ahumana's own father was a "fugitive noble" (whose days as an ali'i were probably at an end, as his life also might have been) and, like many people who traveled from island to island, a distant cousin of the King.

But there not that many Hawaiians and the ali'i of all the islands claimed common descent (and we know, anthropologically, that all Hawaiians are closely related to begin with).

The ancestor that both the Queen and King shared was not a male ancestor, which was my main point - but that the ali'i of Hawaii also or often (or sometimes only) counted on the female line.

Very different from the later views, adopted from Europe (even though Hawai'i easily embraced Queens, as it was our custom to have powerful Queens).

Once the missionaries arrived, many refused to recognize the Queens as being in the main line of ali'i (Queen Ka'ahumana's father may have been ali'i by marriage or he may have been elevated from kapuna, I have heard and read various versions of the story).

Ka'ahumana's kidnapping of the King of Kauai (and his forced marriage to her own person) was almost certainly a remnant of Hawaiian - not European - custom.

So, as I was trying to say (and was perhaps not clear), Hawaiian monarchy/ali'i worked differently than Salic/British/European monarchy.

The chiefs of Oahu and Maui were certainly defeated, but no one threw all their babies, nieces and nephews off battlements, they simply relinquished their prominent positions, people obeyed the ali'i of Hawai'i instead - but they continued to exist as families, as they still do today.
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  #198  
Old 03-20-2011, 02:44 AM
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You're right. That's the problem with Hawaiian history most people, including me, try to mic Western royal attributes to them. The chiefs of Oahu did meet a gruesome end in the 1780s (used exterminate to make a point). According to myth King Kahekili made a house out of all the bones of the slain chiefs of Oahu. Keeaumoku Pāpaiahiahi was a royal himself being the grandson of Queen Kalanikauleleiaiwi of Hawaii. He was only a "fugitive noble" from the same Kahekili I mentioned above because the story goes that Keeaumoku married Namahana, the widow queen of Kamehamehanui Ailuau and Kahekili's half-sister. Kahekili had wanted to marry her but Keeaumoku beat him to it so he was angry. Keeaumoku fled to Hana and then he joined Kamehameha I's force. I love discussing this.
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  #199  
Old 03-21-2011, 01:46 PM
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After princess kaiulani are there other hawaiian royals existing today? Why can't they at least be a constitutional monarchy.
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  #200  
Old 03-21-2011, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Grandduchess24 View Post
After princess kaiulani are there other hawaiian royals existing today?
Yes, they do. Read this thread from the very beginning, if you please, to find all info you are asking for.
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Why can't they at least be a constitutional monarchy.
Because of the Constitution of the United States.
I wonder, if you really are from US.
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