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  #141  
Old 07-18-2012, 09:12 AM
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First of all, I don't think this is the right place for such questions as the thread is about the former rulling families of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and possible claims to the former thrones of those once united countries. I suggest you to start a new thread devoted to the history and presence of the former Polish and Lithuanian nobility, which is, BTW, a much larger and most interesting question than the claims to the throne. As you may know, the szlachta was very privileged and not only the most powerful but the only political power in Poland, as the elected Kings were almost totally controlled by the nobility and had no real power to perform on their own. Additionally, the szlachta was a very large social class comprising about 10% of the total population, which was very unique in contemporary Europe. in 1831 in France only about 1% of the total population had right to vote. The so-called Golden Liberty, the Polish and Lithuanian nobility's rich history of privileged position and almost sovereign-level political power of the whole social class (as a form of the noble democracy) is very interesting and less known in the English-speaking world.
As for the Sanguszko sisters you asked about, do you speak Polish?
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  #142  
Old 07-18-2012, 10:46 AM
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Didnt the polish monarchy end with king stanislaw?
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  #143  
Old 07-18-2012, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Grandduchess24 View Post
Didnt the polish monarchy end with king stanislaw?
Yes, the last king of an independent Poland before the partitions was Stanisław II August Poniatowski.

Nobody related to him could make any claims to the throne though because he was elected.
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  #144  
Old 07-19-2012, 07:26 AM
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Thank you very much for the explanation and I will try to make the new thread . I do speak some Polish. If you have a source/sources I can read in Polish, can you give me the title of the source(s)? Thank you .
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  #145  
Old 07-19-2012, 09:24 AM
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There is no need for a new thread. This thread is fine.
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  #146  
Old 07-19-2012, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by theresa_225 View Post
Is there any information about Princess Helena Sanguszko and her sister, Jadwiga Klementyna?
Princess Jadwiga Klementyna Sanguszko married Prince Adam Stanisław Sapieha. The Crown Princess of Belgium is descended from her but right not that's all I know.

This is a link to the Polish language wiki page for Prince Adam. It lists all their children.

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_St...5%82aw_Sapieha
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  #147  
Old 07-20-2012, 10:52 AM
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Thank you for the information . Do you know which are his children with Helena Sanguszko (whom Jadwiga adopted)? If I remember it correctly, one of them went to America after Helena's death.
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  #148  
Old 07-20-2012, 01:41 PM
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That page does not state that any of the children listed are not Jadwiga's. All the Polish language info I've read says that it is just rumor that her husband had children with her sister.

I'm checking out this page now. Here's a link to a translated version:

http://translate.google.com/translat...ed=0CFgQ7gEwAA
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  #149  
Old 07-20-2012, 05:22 PM
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Thank you . I read the info about their two children on that source but I had a hard time looking for their children.
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  #150  
Old 07-20-2012, 05:39 PM
kbk kbk is offline
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Originally Posted by Noble Consort Ming View Post
Yes, the last king of an independent Poland before the partitions was Stanisław II August Poniatowski.

Nobody related to him could make any claims to the throne though because he was elected.
When he became King the monarchy was elective and there was no rightfull and in fact, any other claimants to the throne. For example, King John III Sobieski, one of the greatest and most popular Polish monarchs, was survived by his three sons and one daughter. And although his eldest son, Jakub Ludwik, was one of the strongest candidates to fulfill the empty throne after his father's death, he never claimed it by any right. Finally, a Wettin was elected and reigned as August II the Strong.
However, during Stanislaus II August's reign the first Polish (and the first European and second worldwide, after only the American one :)) Constitution was passed on May 3, 1791. One of its regulations was that after Poniatowski's death the monarchy should become hereditary and pass to Frederick August I of Saxony, of the Wettins. His daughter, Maria Augusta, was even called the Infanta of Poland. So, under the provisions of the Constitution of May 3, 1791, after Stanislaus II August, the claim to the throne passed to the House of Wettin and today the former Saxon rulers are IMO the strongest claimants to the defunct Polish throne.
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  #151  
Old 07-20-2012, 08:19 PM
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I see that you are in Poland. I am also from Poland but now live in the United States. I'm just stating that to let people know I'm speaking about a country I know something about.

The clause you are speaking of was dependent on the agreement of Frederick Augustus I of Saxony who declined this clause.
I guess if the Wettins still have the strongest claim then I am glad we don't have a monarchy in Poland and hope we never do.
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  #152  
Old 07-25-2012, 10:38 PM
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I found a newspaper article about the wedding of "The Red Prince" and Princess Jadwiga Sanguszko.

Ksi

About Jadwiga's sister Helena, there is a book about her "Dama w jedwabnej sukni." Is it a good book?
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  #153  
Old 10-06-2012, 02:31 PM
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The leading monarchist movement of Lithuania, The Royal House of Lithuania Associatio

For many centuries Lithuania has been shaping its state. Revolution filled the air at the end of the 1800s and beginning of the 1900s, destroying many monarchies. The majority of the revolting nations replaced their thrones with communist governments. Despite that, on June 4, 1918 the Council of Lithuania voted to invite Prince Wilhelm of Urach, Count of Württemberg, to become the king of a newly independent Lithuania. He was elected on 11 July 1918, taking the name King Mindaugas II. Through marriage to Duchess Amalie in Bavaria (1865–1912), is related, also, to the Lithuanian princess Louise Caroline Radvila of Biržai.It is very symbolic that the rare documents such as the letter of Pope Benedict XV, welcoming Wilhelm's selection as the future king of Lithuania (the copy of the document could be found in Stuttgart archive) and letters between General von Ludendorff and Swiss government stating the election of the king in 1918 (courtesy The Lithuanian cultural center in Germany) become known to Lithuanian public.
Despite the global economic and political crises, the leading monarchies of the world manage to overcome these hardships with much dignity, through giving their nations the sense of unity, missing in other modern forms of government. In Lithuania, we may, recently, observe the active revival of the monarchist’s movement and the public opinion steadily grows favorable to monarchy re-establishment. We agree with the majority of Lithuanians, who believes that the throne pretender choice should be based not only on dynastic principles but also on ability to serve to the people successfully. The Royal House of Lithuania Association(headed by H.E. Stanislovas Švedarauskas), the oldest and most reputable monarchist’s movement of Lithuania, did a profound case study of the potential legitimate candidates and arrived at the conclusion that H.S.H. Prince Inigo von Urach, Count of Württemberg suites for position of the Lithuanian throne pretender more then anybody else.
Inigo von Urach (born 1962) is the direct descendant of the last Lithuanian king Mindaugas II, Roman Catholic, family man and dedicated father of 3 children (2 of them-boys). He is connected to Lichtenstein, Luxembourg, British, Russian, Monaco, Bavarian and Portuguese Royal families by birth. The Prince is actively working on positive country image establishment leading to deeper European integration. He supports Lithuanian cultural center in Germany, learning its language and culture. Inigo is constantly visiting the country of his ancestors, meet Lithuanians from a wide spectrum of life, understands their interests and daily problems. His social activities gained interest of the international media, people’s love and recognition (he is a honorary citizen of Kaunas town).The throne pretender should, obligatory, have successful military career to be able to play an important role in recognizing and supporting the work of the Armed Services. Inigo is the only von Urach family member to hold high military rank, serving currently in the army, and regularly participating in NATO military exercises. Finally, His Highness is willing to carry out important work in the areas of public and charitable service, through partnership with Royal House of Lithuania Association in the frame of the joint socio-cultural project called ”King Mindaugas Institute”.
Following the formal offer, done by the most numerable monarchist movement of Lithuania and recognition of his high statues, H.S.H. Prince Inigo von Urach, Count of Württemberg officially accepted the position. His full title since now will be: H.R.H. Grand Duke Inigo of Lithuania, Fürst v. Urach,Count of Württemberg. The Association and His Royal Highness are now partnering for bringing to Lithuania maximum social prosperity, national unity strengthening and stability effect regardless of the monarchy re-establishment.
For more information:
“The Royal House of Lithuania” | Facebook
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  #154  
Old 10-06-2012, 05:53 PM
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Message received by the Administrators...



The leading monarchist movement of Lithuania, The Royal House of Lithuania Association, is honored to inform that

HSH Prince Inigo von Urach, Count of Württemberg

great-grandson of the last King Mindaugas II of Lithuania,

was elected and recognized as the legitimate pretender to the Lithuanian Royal Throne.

For many centuries Lithuania has been shaping its state. Revolution filled the air at the end of the 1800s and beginning of the 1900s, destroying many monarchies. The majority of the revolting nations replaced their thrones with communist governments. Despite that, on June 4, 1918 the Council of Lithuania voted to invite Prince Wilhelm of Urach, Count of Württemberg, to become the king of a newly independent Lithuania. He was elected on 11 July 1918, taking the name King Mindaugas II. Through marriage to Duchess Amalie in Bavaria (1865-1912), he is also related to the Lithuanian princess, Louise Caroline Radvila of Bir'ai. It is very symbolic that the rare documents such as the letter of Pope Benedict XV welcoming Prince Wilhelm's selection as the future King of Lithuania (a copy of which can found in the Stuttgart archive) and letters between General von Ludendorff and the Swiss government stating the election of the king in 1918 have become known to the Lithuanian public courtesy of the Lithuanian cultural center in Germany.

Despite the global economic and political crises, the leading monarchies of the world manage to overcome these hardships with much dignity, through giving their nations the sense of unity, missing in other modern forms of government. In Lithuania, we may, recently, observe the active revival of the monarchist movement and the public opinion steadily grows favorable to the re-establishment of the monarchy. We agree with the majority of Lithuanians, who believes that the choice of Pretender to the Throne should be based not only on dynastic principles but also on ability to serve to the people successfully.

The Royal House of Lithuania Association (headed by H.E. Stanislovas ?vedarauskas), the oldest and most reputable monarchist movement of Lithuania, did a profound case study of potential legitimate candidates and arrived at the conclusion that HSH Prince Inigo von Urach, Count of Württemberg is the most suitable person for the position of Pretender to the Lithuanian throne.

Inigo von Urach (born 1962) is the direct descendant of the last Lithuanian king Mindaugas II, a Roman Catholic, a family man, and dedicated father of 3 children (2 sons and a daughter). He is connected to the Lichtenstein, Luxembourg, British, Russian, Monaco, Bavarian and Portuguese Royal families by birth. The Prince is actively working on the establishment of a positive country image leading to deeper European integration. He supports the Lithuanian cultural center in Germany, learning its language and culture. Inigo is an honorary citizen of the city of Kaunas and is constantly visiting the country of his ancestors, meeting Lithuanians from a wide spectrum of life. He understands their interests and daily problems. His social activities have gained the the people's love and recognition and attracted the interest of the international media.

The Pretender to the throne should, obligatory, have a successful military career and be able to play an important role in recognizing and supporting the work of the Armed Services. Inigo is the only von Urach family member to hold high military rank, serving currently in the army, and regularly participating in NATO military exercises. Finally, His Highness is willing to carry out important work in the areas of public and charitable service, through partnership with the Royal House of Lithuania Association in the frame of the joint socio-cultural project called the "King Mindaugas Institute".

Following the formal offer, done by the most numerable monarchist movement of Lithuania and in recognition of his high stature, H.S.H. Prince Inigo von Urach, Count of Württemberg officially accepted the position. His full title will henceforth be: HRH Grand Duke Inigo of Lithuania, Fürst v. Urach, Count of Württemberg. The Association and His Royal Highness are now in partnership with the aim of bringing to Lithuania maximum social prosperity, the strengthening of national unity and stability, regardless of whether the monarchy is re-established.

For more information:
“The Royal House of Lithuania” | Facebook
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  #155  
Old 10-06-2012, 06:03 PM
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Interesting. Is the newly-elected claimant supported by any other organization and/or party? And how strong the pro-Monarchical movement is in Lithuania anyway? I'v never gathered the impression the Lithuanian people even thought of a restoration or potential claimants.
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  #156  
Old 10-06-2012, 08:27 PM
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A wonderful novel about Poland is called simply "Poland", by James Michener. He is the author of other historical novels such as "Afghanistan," "Hawaii" and many others. I was so fascinated with "Poland" that I didn't put it down, except to sleep and eat, until I finished it. It has a broad historical sweep, showing people of all classes, including elected kings and defenders of Poland against encroachment, as well as Polish people who became the leaders of modern Poland (with a flavor like Doctor Zhivago about Russia).
There is considerable discussion in this novel about who became rulers of Poland and why, coming usually from the nobility, but different segments of the nobility who had differing ambitions and goals.
This thread is very interesting historically.
The Scots also elected their kings in the eras before the Stuarts became hereditary kings. I don't remember how the Stuarts became hereditary, but it probably was similar to the way in which the Carolingians took over from the previous dynasty of the Merovingians. The Carolingians were "mayors of the palace" to the Merovingians and did the day to day business of the crown, and finally took over, although Carolingian kings married Merovingian princesses to give authority to their rule. The Stuarts started their ascent as similar aides to the kings of Brittany and later Scotland, such as King David I of Scotland. Finally they became the ruling thread of the land, and also gained legitimacy by marrying noblewomen and a king's daughter such as Marjory Bruce.
My own family was perhaps a notch below the Stuarts as "aides", since they seem to have been aides to the Stuarts in England and then followed them to Scotland and always supported them even when it meant loss of their lands and power.
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  #157  
Old 11-02-2012, 10:59 AM
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H.R.H. Grand Duke Inigo of Lithuania, Fürst v. Urach,Count of Württemberg

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
Interesting. Is the newly-elected claimant supported by any other organization and/or party? And how strong the pro-Monarchical movement is in Lithuania anyway? I'v never gathered the impression the Lithuanian people even thought of a restoration or potential claimants.

Yes!In Lithuania, we may, recently, observe the active revival of the monarchist’s movement and the public opinion steadily grows favorable to monarchy re-establishment.Therefore, "The Royal House of Lithuania" Association(headed by H.E. Stanislovas Švedarauskas), is the oldest and most reputable monarchist’s movement of Lithuania. H.S.H. Prince Inigo von Urach, Count of Württemberg supports Lithuanian cultural center in Germany, learning its language and culture. Inigo is constantly visiting the country of his ancestors, meet Lithuanians from a wide spectrum of life, understands their interests and daily problems. His social activities gained interest of the international media, people’s love and recognition (he is a honorary citizen of Kaunas town).
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  #158  
Old 11-02-2012, 11:18 AM
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Thera are only few people in Lithuania who knows about Prince Inigo existence or about Urach claimants at all.
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  #159  
Old 11-27-2012, 10:30 AM
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From 17 to 21 of November 2012 H.S.H.Prince Inigo von Urach, Count von Wurttemberg, Lithuanian crown pretender, paid an official visit to Lithuania. The visit took place through the invitation from The Royal House of Lithuania Association. He was greeted at the Vilnius airport by the president of Association, H.E.Stanislavas Svederauskas. Later, in the scope of his first official visit in a new role, His Highness met various officials and had several working meetings, with,namely: the board members of the leading monarchists movement of Lithuania, parliamentarian H.E. Egidijus Vareikis, a deputy of city of Vilnius H.E.Vidas Urbonavichius, the representatives of the mayor of Vilnius H.E. Artūras Zuokas,many others.His Highness launched the preparatory work for creation of “Mindaugas Institute” with the main Project called ”Economic and social stability aid” Program. A lot is left to be done, but the first , key stones, were already laid to make the solid basement.Inigo also gave the extencive interview to various local magazines.

For more information and photos , please visit:
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  #160  
Old 01-12-2013, 03:54 AM
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Poland's last dynastic monarchs vs. later elected monarchs

Hello everyone!

From what I best remember in my memory... I believe King Sigismund II Augustus was the last dynastic king (monarch) of Poland.

He ruled until about 1570 (again... as best I remember). After that, as so many people here have pointed out, Poland became an "elective monarchy" -- with the country's powerful nobility choosing their own rulers.

Much of our conversation here has been about an "elective king" (or queen) coming back to the Polish throne, and who that person/family might be.

Sigismund II Augustus was the last king of the Jagiellon dynasty, which was actually a branch of the Gediminid dynasty that ruled neighboring Lithuania for centuries.


Although this is all only theoretical... if Poland were ever to have a monarchy again, would it be possible that they would draw from the Polish/Lithuanian Jagiellon Gediminids?

Or, because the Poland of today is a Republic, would the country by more inclined to look for families who descend from one of the later elected royal families?

No matter which past monarch the country would choose to look to... would it matter since any new monarch would still have to be "elected" (in some way) by the modern Polish Republic?


Please share your thoughts!
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