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  #1  
Old 05-18-2012, 07:58 AM
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Queen Sofia not attending British Diamond Jubilee Lunch

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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
And, if the British government was sensative to the problem, they could have waited for their big announcement. It is not like the world jumps for joy when Sophie and Edward do anything. It could have waited. That is diplomacy, too.
What announcement? Edward and Sophie's visit didn't bolt out of the blue over the last few days. As a British Overseas Territory, Gibraltar was always going to get a royal visit this year. In choosing to send Edward and Sophie, the Queen and the British government have tried to be sensitive to the Spanish as they are able to go about their business quite quietly and without massive media entourages.
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Old 05-18-2012, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
The ex royals will not be at the Queens lunch at Windsor Castle as that is for reigning monarchs only. I guess there is an outside chance they may be at the more formal dinner given by Prince Charles at Buckingham Palace.
Judging by this picture it looks as if some ex-royals, including the ex-King of the Hellenes, ex-King of Romania etc. were at the lunch.

Queen's Jubilee lunch overshadowed by row over King of Bahrain - Telegraph
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Old 05-19-2012, 12:56 PM
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merged

I don't think this was the King's decision. I think the Spanish government saw an opportunity to take Spaniards' attention off the economic crisis for a bit, and went for it. It also probably helps in shoring up the monarchy, portraying them as sticking up for Spain, which they need to do given recent events.

Queen Sofia is just the collateral damage.

I don't think the irony of their policy on Cuetta and Melilla has occurred to them, NGalitzine.

Anyway, Charles and Camilla managed to visit Spain last year without anyone getting their knickers in a twist. I fail to see how the same couldn't be true of Queen Sofia this time.
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Old 05-19-2012, 01:00 PM
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Gibraltar will always be a thorn in the side when it comes to UK Spanish relations. For all of Spains claims to Gibraltar and yearning to get it back, I do wonder if they ever think of returning their North African territories to Morocco. Probably not.

Well felipe did raise the issue when Charles & Camilla were visiting last year.....but they were visiting Spain and not Gibraltar. Also Spain does have a new conservative government now which may be attempting to flex some muscle regarding the SRF (and that may be a good thing in the long run).
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Old 05-19-2012, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by EIIR View Post

Anyway, Charles and Camilla managed to visit Spain last year without anyone getting their knickers in a twist. I fail to see how the same couldn't be true of Queen Sofia this time.
Spain had a different government in situ when Charles & Camilla visited and when Sofia, Letizia and Felipe attended William & Kate's wedding.

Maybe this new government is just trying to make a statement. ? There also seems to be some issue with fishing rights but I'm not sure what that is about.
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Old 05-19-2012, 02:23 PM
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The cancellation was a request from the Government. In diplomatic relations there are calm moments and difficult times. This is not just a problem of sovereignty, is a deeper problem. Gibraltar is a colony of a European country, in another European country, but it is a territory that does not meet European standards... making it often on a problem for the neighbor that is Spain.

The Gibraltar Government has changed and is more nationalistic, the Government has changed in Spain and is more conservative. In recent months there have been fishing problems in the boundary waters, and there have been problems between the Spanish Civil Guard the Royal Navy in Gibraltar.

Gibraltar and the fishermen were negotiating, but on Wednesday those negotiations broke down. Obviously Spain could not have the Queen celebrating in London, while the Royal Navy could arrest Spanish fishermen or might have a problem with the Spanish Civil Guard.
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Old 05-19-2012, 02:42 PM
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Gibraltar is not a colony. It is a British Overseas Territory, which runs all its own affairs with the exception of defence.

Whatever the rights or wrongs of the Spanish government's grandstanding, all it's done is make the problem worse. The Gibraltarians are talking about using Royal Navy ships if the Spanish fishing boats continue to trespass into its waters. The Spanish government have escalated this whole thing. But I suppose they'd rather Spanish voters be talking about this than Spain's potential economic catastrophe.
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Old 05-19-2012, 02:43 PM
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Gibraltar is not a colony of the UK, it is an overseas territory which is different. It controls everything except defence & foreign affairs and its citizens are British citizens. Gibraltar citizens have the right to vote in European Parliamentary elections. The current fishing dispute is an issue between the Government of Gibraltar and the Government of Spain. The people of Gibraltar have voted overwhelmingly in referendums in 1967 and 2002 not to become part of Spain and not to have Spain take any part in their government and as in every democracy those people have the right of self determination.
The Spanish governments position is very ironic considering their own possession of Cuetta and Melilla. I guess they consider offshore territories in Africa to be quite acceptable for a European power even though Morocco, as with Spain & Gibraltar, claims these communities for themselves and want Spain to return them.
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Old 05-19-2012, 03:02 PM
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Prime Minister Rajoy denied Sofia's trip because (1) the Wessex's are visiting Gibraltar in June, (2) the Gibraltar marching band was performing at the Queen's celebrations, and (3) hostilies escalated this week regarding Spanish fishing rights outside of Gibraltar.

Yet the official explanation for the cancellation didn’t even bother to explain why: “The government considers it is hardly adequate that in the current circumstances Queen Sofia take part in Queen Elizabeth’s Jubilee,” said a spokesperson for the Spanish royal household.

Mariano Rajoy became Prime Minister on December 21, 2011 as a member of the conservative People's Party. As part of his election campaign, running against the more moderate Socialist government, he made it clear that he believes Gibraltar should belong to Spain.
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Old 05-19-2012, 03:02 PM
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This is a forum about royalty, and I think this topic has gone too far in a forum of activities on the King and Queen of Spain. The last thing I write on the subject...

According to United Nations Gibraltar is a territory awaiting decolonization.

The United Nations and Decolonization - Committee of 24 - Non-Self-Governing Territories

The situation of Gibraltar and Ceuta and Melilla are not comparable because they come from two very different historical realities. For that reason those cities do not appear in the list of the United Nations. Perhaps before writing is necessary to review the international laws and history.
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Old 05-19-2012, 03:25 PM
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I studied some international law when I got my law degree. This would be the same UN that granted Libya, China, Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe, Sudan among others membership of its Commission on Human Rights?

Gibraltar should not be on that list because its citizens have voted twice in democratic elections to remain a British Overseas Territory. A largely self-governing territory, who have democratically chosen to maintain their territorial status, should not be considered a colony. Chapter XI of the UN Charter was designed decades ago to help those territories who wanted to become independent states. It assumes that every overseas territory will automatically want to achieve full independence. The definition is no longer fit for purpose in the 21st century, where territories such as Gibraltar have voted decisively to retain their connection with the administering state.

The Gibraltarians have been lobbying for their presence on that list to be removed, but the UN choose to leave things as they are hoping if they just ignore it it'll go away.

I posted the above before seeing seeing your post An Ard Ri, but since lula's post has not been removed, I would ask that my response be allowed to stand also.
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Old 05-22-2012, 03:26 AM
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"Bit annoying really."

It's not annoying, is her job. Her responsibility. A responsibility she took on when her husband swore the Spanish Constitution as King of Spain.

I'm not going to debate the politics around Gibraltar, this is obviously not the place for it. I object however to the "romantic" notion that Queen Sofia was forced by the Spanish government to do something against her will.

Spain is a parliamentary democracy like the UK. And like the UK, the Premier advises the King on a wide range of issues, including diplomatic ones. No one forced QS to stay in Spain - she could have gone to England if she so wished.

Same as the Queen of England. She can do/go where she wants to even against the advice of her government.

Of course if they did that, they wouldn't be monarchs for long. It's Europe 2012, not medieval times.

BTW, does anyone really think Edward and Sophie visit to Gibraltar was anything but political? I doubt an incredibly overcrowded small rock with native monkies is the kind of place they'd choose as a destination - either as holidays or to meet other friends/royals.
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Old 05-22-2012, 04:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alondra
"Bit annoying really."

BTW, does anyone really think Edward and Sophie visit to Gibraltar was anything but political? I doubt an incredibly overcrowded small rock with native monkies is the kind of place they'd choose as a destination - either as holidays or to meet other friends/royals.
Yes i think it is anything but political. The Queen is celebrating her diamond jubilee and her children and grandchildren are visiting the countries and islands on her behalf of which when reigns over. We've witnessed that Her Majesty has enough common sense not to go to Gibraltar herself as that would cause more huff from the Spanish government.

I agree with Molly it's a shame Sofia had to turn down and invitation which she had earlier accepted because of a visit that will make no difference to the current situation. I'm sure like all the Monarchs there she would have enjoyed the lunch and dinner.
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Old 05-22-2012, 04:49 AM
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The fact the Queen of England is celebrating her diamond jubilee is something for her subjects to rejoice - not for the rest of the world, including Spaniards, to celebrate.

Gibraltar, like Malvinas, like Hong Kong and India in the past, are internationally disputed territories. Monarchs do what their governments dictate, including the Queen of England.

The fact Queen Elizabeth has not visited Gibraltar is because the UK government didn't think it was necessary, specially considering her age.

I'm sure Queen Sofia would have enjoyed having lunch and dinner with other monarchs. Her government though didn't think it was appropriate for her to attend the celebration under the current political circumstances. She did what she had to as Queen of Spain.

Those are the dues royals pay to their countries.
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Old 05-22-2012, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alondra
The fact the Queen of England is celebrating her diamond jubilee is something for her subjects to rejoice - not the rest of the world.

Gibraltar, like Malvinas, like Hong Kong and India in the past, are internationally disputed territories. Monarchs do what their governments dictate, including the Queen of England.

The fact Queen Elizabeth has not visited Gibraltar is because the UK government didn't think it was necessary, specially considering her age.
Queen Elizabeth is Queen in Gibraltar, therefore it is a country she reigns over and one she has done for 60 years. Hence the visit to celebrate the Diamond Jubilee. It might be a disputed territory but HM is still Queen. Age has little to do in this case, Elizabeth isn't visiting any overseas territories this year, she's staying at home and touring the UK. She hasn't been able to visit Gibraltar her entire reign, which started when she was 22 I think.

Yes both government tell their monarchs what to do, it doesn't make either situation less sad or silly.
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Old 05-22-2012, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
Queen Elizabeth is Queen in Gibraltar, therefore it is a country she reigns over and one she has done for 60 years. Hence the visit to celebrate the Diamond Jubilee. It might be a disputed territory but HM is still Queen. Age has little to do in this case, Elizabeth isn't visiting any overseas territories this year, she's staying at home and touring the UK. She hasn't been able to visit Gibraltar her entire reign, which started when she was 22 I think.

Yes both government tell their monarchs what to do, it doesn't make either situation less sad or silly.
Sorry but it's not sad or silly. It's politics. And politics is what governs our countries, including top level diplomacy.

Queen Elizabeth is Queen of Gibraltar by the British. A fact that it is NOT recognised by Spain.

Queen Sofia swore the Spanish Constitution, not the British one.
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Old 05-22-2012, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alondra

Sorry but it's not sad or silly. It's politics. And politics is what governs our countries, including top level diplomacy.

Queen Elizabeth is Queen of Gibraltar by the British. A fact that it is NOT recognised by Spain. Queen Sofia swore the Spanish Constitution, not the British one.
It's sad and silly to me. Do not belittle my opinion.
HM as Queen of Gibraltar is recognised by Gibraltar they have even rejected Spanish sovereignty one two recent occasions. If that doesn't speak volumes in the political circles then I don't know what does.

You're clearly not interested in listening to another side of the story, so I think this discussion is over.
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Old 05-22-2012, 05:36 AM
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It's sad and silly to me. Do not belittle my opinion.
HM as Queen of Gibraltar is recognised by Gibraltar they have even rejected Spanish sovereignty one two recent occasions. If that doesn't speak volumes in the political circles then I don't know what does.

You're clearly not interested in listening to another side of the story, so I think this discussion is over.
I didn't belittle your opinion when I said - "Sorry but it's not sad or silly. It's politics." - It was a statement of fact.

I think though that the fact you are here in the Spain forum (and not the opposite -ie, me complaining in the British one) trying to demean the government of Spain's for their advice to Queen Sofia not to attend England's Jubilee celebrations, is a fact of the political position you stand on.

I said from the beginning I'm not going to discuss the politics of the situation because this forum is not the appropriate one to do so.

I will say my opinion though as a Spaniard when it touches my Queen and my government. What your position is, it's also obviously clear.
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Old 05-22-2012, 05:54 AM
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Gibraltar is quite a hot topic for Spaniards.
While I find respectable Prince Andrew´s trip to Gibraltar as it´s a British territory, and I´m 100% sure that Sofia would have love the celebration, I think the correct thing to do nowadays was to stay at home. She does not owe anything to the British Crown, honestly, and everything to Spanish people. If she had to offend anyone, I prefer it was the British Queen than the Spaniards, really.

I like when some royals put their duty above their pleasure, it´s nice from the Spanish Royal Family after all the latest events
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Old 05-22-2012, 05:57 AM
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"While I find respectable Prince Andrew´s trip to Gibraltar as it´s a British territory"

It was Prince Edward, not Andrew. I find nothing respectable about Andrew.
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