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  #261  
Old 06-03-2014, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by lula View Post
The reference to Carlos V and Felipe II is now even more inevitable.
Oh, indeed.

But talk about a succesful process of abdication- sucession

I´m so looking foward the event today. It´s everything very symbolic: El Escorial, both King and future King alone, military event+parade...

I´ll admit that with all this issue I´m getting quite sentimental
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  #262  
Old 06-03-2014, 06:34 AM
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And both Holy Roman Emperor & King Charles V/I and King Philip II are buried within the El Escorial Monastery!!
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  #263  
Old 06-03-2014, 06:42 AM
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After Maria Wladimirovna it is now the turn of the nutty prince Sixte of Bourbon-Parma to throw in his few cents. The prince considers himself as the legitemate king of Spain I suppose. He says that the king was an enemy to religion and to the nation:

Ante la renuncia del Jefe del Estado « Comunión Tradicionalista

Why is he referring to Juan Alfonso btw?
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  #264  
Old 06-03-2014, 06:48 AM
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Well it will just be simple Bill in which the King confirms his desire, as expressed on June 2nd, to abdicate the kingship in favour of his son and Heir. There is broad consensus in the Cortes (Parliament) so it will all pass pretty smoothly.
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  #265  
Old 06-03-2014, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
After Maria Wladimirovna it is now the turn of the nutty prince Sixte of Bourbon-Parma to throw in his few cents. The prince considers himself as the legitemate king of Spain I suppose. He says that the king was an enemy to religion and to the nation:

Ante la renuncia del Jefe del Estado « Comunión Tradicionalista
His claims to the kingship of Spain are a complete farce. The last Carlist descendant from the Spanish Borbóns died, without issue, in 1936. The claim subsequently went to.... the line of the present King Juan Carlos...

CARLIST LINE

Don Carlos IV de Borbón, King of Spain (1788-1808)
x Maria Luise de Borbón, Princess of Parma
= Don Carlos de Borbón

Don Carlos de Borbón, Conde de Molina (1788-1855)
x Maria Francisca de Bragança, Infanta of Portugal
= Don Juan de Borbón

Don Juan de Borbón, Conde de Montizón (1822-1887)
x Archduchess Maria Beatrice of Austria-Este
= Don Alfonso Carlos de Borbón

Don Alfonso Carlos de Borbón, Duque de Sain Jaime (1949-1936)
x no marriage
= no issue

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PRESENT ROYAL LINE

Don Carlos IV de Borbón, King of Spain (1788-1808)
x Maria Luise de Borbón, Princess of Parma
= Don Fernando de Borbón

Don Fernando VII de Borbón, King of Spain (1784-1833)
x Maria Christina de Borbón, Princess of Two Sicilies
= Doña Isabel de Borbón

Doña Isabel II de Borbón, Queen of Spain (1830-1904)
x Francisco de Asís María Fernando de Borbón
= Don Alfonso de Borbón

Don Alfonso XII de Borbón, King of Spain (1857-1885)
x Maria Christina, Archduchess of Austria-Lorraine
= Don Alfonso de Borbón

Don Alfonso XIII de Borbón, King of Spain (1886-1941)
x Princess Victoria Eugenia of Battenberg
= Don Juan de Borbón

Don Juan de Borbón, Conde de Barcelona (1913-1993)
x María de las Mercedes de Borbón, Princess of Two Sicilies
= Don Juan Carlos de Borbón

Don Juan Carlos de Borbón, King of Spain (1938)
x Princess Sophia of Greece and Denmark
= Don Felipe de Borbón

Don Felipe de Borbón, King of Spain (1968)
x Doña Letizia Ortiz Rocasolano
= Doña Leonor, Infanta de España
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  #266  
Old 06-03-2014, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by ricarda View Post
And you think that would not have happened in the case of JC's death?

Perhaps. If the spanish royal family hasn´t mended its damaged reputation by then - no.
But at least there was a chance their popularity had risen again at this particular day in the future.
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  #267  
Old 06-03-2014, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
And why not? As much as Juan Carlos did the transition from dictatorship to democracy, Felipe's role could be guiding the country from unitary parliamentary constitutional monrachy to a republic, if this turns out what people want in the next decade or so. Felipe is not stupid, at the end of the day monarchy has become outdated and Spain has never been a classic monarchistic country unlike eg the nordic countries, that seem to enjoy the pomp and glamour part.

Why not?! Because I´m a monarchist (otherwise there would be no need to spend time at this forum....) and I have very strong resentments against republics.
I don´t see why monarchies were "outdated"! And I don´t get why Spain wouldn´t be a "classic monarchistic country", too. Spain has been a monarchy for many centuries with a short exception in the 20th century.
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  #268  
Old 06-03-2014, 08:51 AM
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It is amazing. Even my relatively-small middle-American city newspaper (where getting a new police chief is a front page article) picked up the story! Usually I don't see anything about any royal family besides the Brits except in the "Around the World" paragraph blurbs.... Willem-Alexander's and Philippe's inaugerations were only a couple of paragraphs on page 7 or 8.

William and Kate's wedding was the front page, above-the-fold big picture, btw.
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  #269  
Old 06-03-2014, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
After Maria Wladimirovna it is now the turn of the nutty prince Sixte of Bourbon-Parma to throw in his few cents. The prince considers himself as the legitemate king of Spain I suppose. He says that the king was an enemy to religion and to the nation:

Ante la renuncia del Jefe del Estado « Comunión Tradicionalista

I was actually surprised we didn't hear from the Carlist pretenders to the Spanish throne earlier. I assumed that, like the republicans, they would seize the opportunity to voice their protest against Prince Felipe's accession.
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  #270  
Old 06-03-2014, 08:59 AM
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This event was in the news in Australia. We saw republic demonstrations.

Anyone on the forum from Spain who can give first hand information on what the Spanish are feeling?
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  #271  
Old 06-03-2014, 09:04 AM
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[QUOTE=Duc_et_Pair;1671546]Heu...

Queen Wilhelmina had no full support of the public in 1948?
Grand Duchess Charlotte had no full support of the public in 1962?
Queen Juliana had no full support of the public in 1980?
Grand Duke Jean had no full support of the public in 2000?
Queen Beatrix had no full support of the public in 2013?


I didn´t name Wilhelmina, Charlotte, Juliana or Jean nor Beatrix!
All these sovereigns are from monarchies with abdication-tradition (in fact, abdication became only and not before popular in the NL because Queen Emma, who originally was Queen consort, had to hand over the office to her daughter who became of age).
Both Belgium and Spain had no abdication tradition before (Leopold III also abdicated only because huge resentments against him for his role in WW2).
In the Netherlands and in Luxemburg this custom works; we´ll see how in the long run things develop both in Belgium and Spain. I only hope for the best of these countries!

Monarchs like Elizabeth II or King Harald who have been anointed or at least blessed by the church should never abdicate as this tie can only be dissolved by god, in my opinion.
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  #272  
Old 06-03-2014, 09:32 AM
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Duc et pair thank you for the lovely painting showing abdication
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  #273  
Old 06-03-2014, 09:36 AM
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[QUOTE=wartenberg7;1671645]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Heu...

Queen Wilhelmina had no full support of the public in 1948?
Grand Duchess Charlotte had no full support of the public in 1962?
Queen Juliana had no full support of the public in 1980?
Grand Duke Jean had no full support of the public in 2000?
Queen Beatrix had no full support of the public in 2013?


I didn´t name Wilhelmina, Charlotte, Juliana or Jean nor Beatrix!
All these sovereigns are from monarchies with abdication-tradition (in fact, abdication became only and not before popular in the NL because Queen Emma, who originally was Queen consort, had to hand over the office to her daughter who became of age).
Both Belgium and Spain had no abdication tradition before (Leopold III also abdicated only because huge resentments against him for his role in WW2).
In the Netherlands and in Luxemburg this custom works; we´ll see how in the long run things develop both in Belgium and Spain. I only hope for the best of these countries!

Monarchs like Elizabeth II or King Harald who have been anointed or at least blessed by the church should never abdicate as this tie can only be dissolved by god, in my opinion.
Juan Carlos was also blessed (and anointed) in the Jerónimos Church roughly one month after his proclamation as king by the Cortes. Although I respect your religious beliefs, modern monarchs (including Queen Elizabeth II) are not really kings/queens "by the grace of God", but rather by the will of the people represented in Parliament. Even in the UK, Parliament can depose the king or change the line of succession as shown in the cases of James II and Edward VIII.

I also think that an abdication tradition or lack thereof is not the real issue. The monarchies of Spain and Belgium are more fragile in comparison to those of, let's say, Denmark or the Netherlands because of structural problems in those countries, most notably Flemish separatism and the linguistic divide in Belgium, and long-term leftist republicanism, Catalan separatism, and, more recently, the economic crisis in Spain. Corruption scandals and other circumstantial controversies involving the Royal Family only add to those deeper, structural issues.
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  #274  
Old 06-03-2014, 09:44 AM
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thank you for your excellent post addressing religious and comparing monarchies, I fully agree with your analysis and am grateful for the information re jc blessing.

Btw no mention of any of this news in my local news, only major papers like ny times and wall street journal truly for his huge historical role in guiding Spain from Franco and bravery in attempted coup,
Also, felipe bio as American educated is always mentioned
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  #275  
Old 06-03-2014, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I was actually surprised we didn't hear from the Carlist pretenders to the Spanish throne earlier. I assumed that, like the republicans, they would seize the opportunity to voice their protest against Prince Felipe's accession.
That is because the Carlists are not taken au sérieux. The last Carlist pretender died unmarried and childless in 1936. The Carlist pretension was caused when King Fernando VII of Spain changed the succession in 1830. Until then it was male primogeniture, meaning that his brother Don Carlos was the Heir. The King only had two daughters. He changed the succession by removing his brother Don Carlos in favour of his eldest daughter, the underaged Doña Isabella. Three years after the change the King died, his little daughter became Queen and under influence of her Regentess, the Dowager Queen. The Carlists saw her as the machination behind all the changes.

This caused a shift and even civil wars ("Carlist Wars") between the supporters of Don Carlos and the supporters of his niece Doña Isabella and her mother the Dowager Queen. Anyway, ultimately the male line descendants of Don Carlos became extinct in 1936. With this the Carlist claims have dried up, as exactly following the old logica of male-only succession, the line of the present-day King is the rightful one.

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  #276  
Old 06-03-2014, 10:25 AM
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The newspapers ABC and El Mundo have inventarized the deputies and between 80-90% of them will approve the Bill for the abdication of Don Juan Carlos de Borbón, King of Spain.

No problems whatsoever. Only a few separatists, leftists and mixed parliamentarians will vote against.
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  #277  
Old 06-03-2014, 10:29 AM
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The process should be ended on June 18th, and then the Royal House will set the date of the proclamation.

They are talking about June 24th for the ceremony, but that isn´t official yet.
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  #278  
Old 06-03-2014, 10:30 AM
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His Catholic Majesty King Juan Carlos I of Spain with the future King Felipe VI at Escorial today:

El Rey y el Pr?ncipe presiden juntos un acto militar en El Escorial vestidos con el uniforme de Tierra | Espa?a | EL MUNDO
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  #279  
Old 06-03-2014, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
There are so many questions now ... style and role of the old kings, will they stay or move out of Zarzuela, the Asturias family moving in? JC will remain advisor for Felipe anyway, but it doesnt sound easy if the parents are still living at the same place.
Now it becomes clearer that Leonor will have a different role that Sofia and she will be groomed accordingly.
And I wonder how they will handle the workload, just the two of them, if the kings stop to be active, especially Sofia, and what about Elena?
I have been told that Infanta Elena is not a member of the Spanish royal family any more. She will have no official duties. I guess Infanta Leonor should start undertaking some official engagements.
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  #280  
Old 06-03-2014, 12:52 PM
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It´s official now: the date for the proclamation is set for June 18th.

El Rey abdica: El príncipe Felipe será proclamado rey el 18 de junio ante las Cortes | Política | EL PAÍS

https://translate.google.es/translat...-text=&act=url
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