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  #1  
Old 01-10-2005, 12:44 PM
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Joséphine-Charlotte and Maria Teresa's Relationship

While searching for news on the unfortunate death of the former Grand Duchess [and I cannot believe that not one single US news outlet has any mention of her! :seethe:] I came across this article, which I've never seen before. It was quite interesting. And it made me like Josephine-Charlotte even more. ;-]

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Old 01-10-2005, 01:04 PM
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I have heard these sorts of stories before, and I believe that in an old (very old) thread we did discuss this press conference Maria Teresa held and the alleged tense relationship between mother- and daughter-in-law. (If you are interested in finding the old thread here, do a search and go back at to at least fall 2003 if not more.)

Allegedly, Josephine-Charlotte would've preferred for her eldest son to have married an aristocrat considering that he would succeed his father one day. Maria Teresa was not only not an aristocrat, she was from Cuba which apparently Josephine-Charlotte thought even less of. Josephine-Charlotte was allegedly very disappointed in the pairing, so much so that she cried on their wedding day.

I have also heard stories that Josephine-Charlotte much preferred her daughter-in-law Sybilla, who is married to her son Guillaume. Either here or on another forum when this story was being discussed, there were pictures posted of Josephine-Charlotte carrying an umbrella for Sybilla at a baptism because she was holding the baby but other people remarked that Josephine-Charlotte would never have done the same for Maria Teresa under the same circumstances. Other examples of the favouritism were of how Josephine-Charlotte would frequently lend Sybilla tiaras and jewels but never to Maria Teresa, who as the Hereditary Grand Duchess would've taken precedence over her sister-in-law.

I'm not sure about the accurace of these stories of course. They're just stories I've heard. In light of Josephine-Charlotte's death, whatever the relationship was between Maria Teresa and her mother-in-law, I hope she can forgive and forget and not dwell on how badly things (apparently) were.
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Old 01-10-2005, 01:52 PM
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even more important: those things are very unpleasant for the (grand)children.

the things you mentioned like the umbrella and the family jewels are visible, there are lots of things children notice that are less visible and leave scares.
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Old 01-10-2005, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suturegeisha
While searching for news on the unfortunate death of the former Grand Duchess [and I cannot believe that not one single US news outlet has any mention of her! :seethe:] I came across this article, which I've never seen before. It was quite interesting. And it made me like Josephine-Charlotte even more. ;-]

Here you go:

Grand Duchess does a 'Lady Di'

Please note: I am not trying to be offensive here to Maria-Teresa, Josephine-Charlotte, or the late Princess Diana. I just wanted to post it before I forgot about it and lost the link.
-Kara-
i've just copy and paste that article...so that ppl can see it in the future if that link does not work anymore

Grand Duchess 'does a Lady Di'
By Philip Delves Broughton in Paris
(Filed: 03/07/2002)

A Grand Duchess in Luxembourg has been accused of "doing a Lady Di" after she summoned journalists to the royal palace and treated them to an extended, tearful assault on her mother-in-law.

Grand Duchess Maria Teresa with her husband Grand Duke Henri
Grand Duchess Maria Teresa, 46, married into the Luxembourg royal family on marrying Henri, now the Grand Duke after his father, Jean, abdicated two years ago.

She has done all that can be expected of a Grand Duchess, including travelling the world for Unesco, but she has never won the approval of her mother-in-law, the Grand Duchess Josephine-Charlotte.

Last month Maria Teresa summoned 15 Belgian and Luxembourgeois journalists to a supposedly off-the-record lunch but details of it began to emerge yesterday.

According to those present Maria Teresa, 46, spent the entire lunch sobbing and blaming Josephine-Charlotte for making her life a misery.

Maria Teresa is said to have told her guests that her mother-in-law calls her "the little Cuban" and despises her for not being blue-blooded.

Her wealthy family fled Cuba after Fidel Castro's revolution and she was brought up in New York and Switzerland.

The Belgian newspaper Le Soir reported that Maria Teresa also blamed her mother-in-law for spreading rumours that her husband was having an affair with Luxembourg's foreign minister. It described the event as Maria Teresa "doing a Lady Di".
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Old 01-11-2005, 01:40 AM
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yes, i've read that article and heard various other stories as well, and all of them are a sad business. hopefully mt is bigger than that and can put the past behind herself and not dwell on it, thus passing grief that's caused by situations such as those on to another generation. if they are true, then j-c wasn't as much a classy lady as i though she was and truly was a product of her breeding and her era, so to speak- this was said on the benelux messge board. btw, i was wondering when someone would start a thread on this subject. anyway, let's all hope that mt and the rest of her family-in-law can set a better example and move away from the whole, "yuck, you can do better than a commoner can't you," idealology and see ppl for who they are on the inside and not what they are or where they come from or how much money or how well connected they are, b/c let's face it, it's 2005 and this type of bigotry must end b/c it's childish, offensive, and stupid. sorry if i've offended anyone with my comments; i'm not being partial to anyone(mt or j-c) b/c i like them both, despite all their flaws which comes from not being royal by blood or by marriage or both, but from being human beings.
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Old 01-11-2005, 09:19 AM
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I would just like to state i am playing the devils advocate here. I was just wondering Suturegeisha why, although Maria-Teresa aired her dirty laundry in public by talking to the press and doing "a princess diana," why does this make you like Josephine more? If it were true she didn't like her daughter-in-law just beacuse she was Cuban and not born a noble, is this perhaps not quite cruel of Josephine and to call her the Little Cuban?

PS - I just want to say again that I am playing the devils advocate here and just asking an alkwerd question. In no way what so ever do i mean any offence to Suturegeisha or anyone else's opionions on either Maria-Teresa or Josephine-Charlotte.
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Old 01-11-2005, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splodger
I would just like to state i am playing the devils advocate here. I was just wondering Suturegeisha why, although Maria-Teresa aired her dirty laundry in public by talking to the press and doing "a princess diana," why does this make you like Josephine more? If it were true she didn't like her daughter-in-law just beacuse she was Cuban and not born a noble, is this perhaps not quite cruel of Josephine and to call her the Little Cuban?
I have to preface this with the fact that I do not know much about Josephine-Charlotte, Maria-Teresa or any of the family history, relationships or dynamics. But from a purely human point of view, I would hasten to guess that Maria-Teresa must've been pretty frustrated by the situation and at the end of her rope to have drawn such public attention and scrutiny to her situation with her mother-in-law.

I am curious to know (for those who are in the know more than me), if there was some incident or occasion taking place in Luxembourg or within the family at the time that might've "provoked" this press conference? I vaguely recall (but am not a hundred per cent certain) that Josephine-Charlotte might've made some comment about Maria-Teresa that became published (intentionally or untentionally) so Maria-Teresa felt it necessary to share her side of things?

Again, I don't really know, just taking a stab in the dark.
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Old 01-11-2005, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splodger
I would just like to state i am playing the devils advocate here. I was just wondering Suturegeisha why, although Maria-Teresa aired her dirty laundry in public by talking to the press and doing "a princess diana," why does this make you like Josephine more? If it were true she didn't like her daughter-in-law just beacuse she was Cuban and not born a noble, is this perhaps not quite cruel of Josephine and to call her the Little Cuban?

PS - I just want to say again that I am playing the devils advocate here and just asking an alkwerd question. In no way what so ever do i mean any offence to Suturegeisha or anyone else's opionions on either Maria-Teresa or Josephine-Charlotte.
Mmmm. I guess everyone misconstrued that comment. I'm sorry. :o

While of course Maria-Teresa did not deserve to be treated in such a way by her own mother-in-law, I really don't think it was right of her to have an "off-the-record" lunch and cry and whine about it to- of all people- a bunch of journalists. To be upset by such comments, of course! But, there are other outlets in which to vent one's frustration, and not the newspapers.
What I meant by what I said is that I've always liked the late Grand Duchess- a lot- and reading that article just made me feel kind of this wierd affection for her. She reminds me of my own grandmother. :) Sorry for any confusion. I like Maria-Teresa a lot as well.
Lollies!
-Kara-
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Old 01-11-2005, 02:24 PM
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I really don't want to be mean, but if you suturegeisha had a grandmother like the late Grand-Duchess, then I have to say that I'm very sorru for you.
Between Josephine-Charlotte and Baldouin there is a HUGE-HUGE difference.
I'm sorry for her death, but she was never a exemple of how a good mother should be. Her sons were grown enough to choose their wifes.
Maria Teresa is a wonderful Grand Duchess, very sweet, catholic, good mother and very pretty. She deserved a better mother-in-law, I hope Maria Teresa had forgive her.
Even Hola magazine didn't give much attencion to her death... may she rest in peace, but she was not kind and good, that's a pitty.
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Old 01-11-2005, 02:49 PM
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Actually, doll, I believe that Josephine-Charlotte was kind and good.

And, no need to feel sorry for me.
-Kara-
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Old 01-11-2005, 03:46 PM
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I can understand entirely how MT was feeling in regard to JC. If you had a mother-in-law who was continually thinking that you weren't good enough for their son, no matter what you did, it would get very upsetting and frustrating. However, I don't know see sufficient evidence to say that MT actually did say those things at the 'lunch'. Why would she do it? She knows what the implications comments like that would have on the family. It just doesn't seem like something she would do.
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Old 01-11-2005, 08:38 PM
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Wait...was this like hardcore the media being everywhere published?
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Old 01-12-2005, 03:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina
I really don't want to be mean, but if you suturegeisha had a grandmother like the late Grand-Duchess, then I have to say that I'm very sorru for you.
Between Josephine-Charlotte and Baldouin there is a HUGE-HUGE difference.
I'm sorry for her death, but she was never a exemple of how a good mother should be. Her sons were grown enough to choose their wifes.
Maria Teresa is a wonderful Grand Duchess, very sweet, catholic, good mother and very pretty. She deserved a better mother-in-law, I hope Maria Teresa had forgive her.
Even Hola magazine didn't give much attencion to her death... may she rest in peace, but she was not kind and good, that's a pitty.
I think that you have not the right to say that Josephine-Charlotte was not kind and good. She was very dedicated in the SOS children's village for example and President of the Luxembourgish Red Cross. In December 2003 there was a Gala of the SOS children's village and despite her illness she was present which shows us that this projects were very important for her. In 1997 there was a serious train accident in Luxembourg with many victims and she visited the injured people and consolated them!

She lost her parents when she was very young (only seven years old) and she was like a mother for the brothers Baudouin and Albert. Thus she was a strong personality.:)

I think she had also a good relationship with her children as I saw on TV reports.

But I'm sorry that she had a bad relationship with Maria Teresa!:( She had a very conservative point of view and didn't want that her son married a commoner and because of that she didn't like Maria Teresa. That's one explanation, the second is that Maria Teresa was related with a person involved in the Cuban revolution, the dictator Fulgencio Batista as I wrote in this part of the forum:
Grand Duchess Maria Teresa, Picture Thread; Part 1 (Please read this! )

Although she had a nasty man in the family, Grand Duchess Maria Teresa is a very nice and kind person which makes so many good things and I really like her (it's not her fault that this Batista was nasty !) But J-C didn't think like this but developped some sort of hate for M-T and I remember you that many mother-in-law have bad relationships with their daughter-in-law and especially among Royals (as you can see in other Royal families! ).

It is a pity that J-C and M-T had a bad relationship because both are/were dedicated in helping other people. J-C rarely showed emotions and because of that many people have a wrong image of her.

I respect both persons and I think that it is really sad that Josephine-Charlotte has gone from us and certainly Maria Teresa has forgiven her and is feeling like all member of the Grand Ducal family and many people in Luxembourg: "You were une Grande Dame and we will never forget the good things you did!"

PS: Do you think really the news in foreign countries would have mentioned her death more if she had a better relationship with Maria Teresa? No, because for most of the journalists Luxembourg isn't interesting or they completely ignore where this country is!
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Old 01-12-2005, 04:57 AM
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We should stop talking about this bad story

I, for one simply don't believe in such story of the conflict between both Grand Duchesses especially this one which has been well-circulated especially after her demise.

Grand Duchess Josephine Charlotte is a great lady and I don't think she should have bad relationship with her daughter in law.

Even if she does, it has to be regarded as purely private matter and don't need to publicise or have our critics on it.

As royalists we should preserve good name of all royal families. Think of their great contributions from positive side. Spread the glory of their kingdoms to all. Everyone does make mistake and there's nothing to be so important about it to the extent that we should open any column to talk about royal gossip. Same goes to Prince Bernhard whereby in the previous weeks, so many bad stories on illegal daughter, Lockeheed bribery and so forth. I mean, we don't need to talk about all those things. Those are gone already. What we should do is to display their good image.

O, come on, we are royalists, man.
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Old 01-12-2005, 06:46 AM
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I think 'we' often fall into a dilema where we want to support this institution of monarchy and feel we must defend it, and those of Royal status at all costs against the outside world inhabbited by devout republicans and those who dont care or have based their opnions on royalty though sensational and missleading media stories. However as the majority of people in these forums are pro-monarchy in one way or another, or at the very least not about to overthrow them in a republican frenzy, we can all afford to see and accept that they are all human and they are not perfect as we dont need to deffend them in argument as if it were the eve of a referendum over its existance.

My knowledge of the Grand Ducal family is not extensive, however i am sure that both MT and JC are both very good examples of hardworking monarchs who are devoted to their people. However like we, here in these forums, often fall out with each other and we get along well with some members and not others, we cant expect JC and MT to play happy families just beacuse they are both on the same side.

I imagine their disagreements were blown entirley out of proportion by the media who probably put their own spin on the accounts of their lunch with MT (i would have thought MT would not be so unwise to behave like that as it would have caused problems between her and her husband whos mother she was eledgedily criticising). However just beacuse they may or may not have got on very well does not mean either are bad Grand Duchesses. It is quite possible the issues of MT being non royal were of concern to her JC who came from a generation where royal heads of state were all married to at least recognised european nobility if not full blown blue blood and there had been an air of distrust of non nobles marrying into such families for fame and fortune and then creating havock when they realise they cant cope with the demands placed on them. Assuming MT did blab to the press, it was not becomming behaviour of the wife of the Head of State (I have always admired the Duchess of York for never playing 'kiss and tell' on a family she is known to have had personal differences with) and it is not nice of JC to call her daughter-in-law the "little cuban." however i guarentee we all have people in our families who we do not get along with for one reason or another but we dont think we are bad at our jobs for it do we?

We can not let our selves become blind to the fact that no one is perfect just beacuse they are royal. we can allow our selves to accept these failings here in the forums as we will all apreciate it is only a valid opinion and not an attack on what we all know and love. It is the point of these forums to discuss such issues and learn from others information. No one needs to feel that beacuse JC and MT didnt get on that either were bad monarchs and that the House of Luxembourg will come crashing down beacuse of it.
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Old 01-12-2005, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephram
I, for one simply don't believe in such story of the conflict between both Grand Duchesses especially this one which has been well-circulated especially after her demise.

Grand Duchess Josephine Charlotte is a great lady and I don't think she should have bad relationship with her daughter in law.

Even if she does, it has to be regarded as purely private matter and don't need to publicise or have our critics on it.

As royalists we should preserve good name of all royal families. Think of their great contributions from positive side. Spread the glory of their kingdoms to all. Everyone does make mistake and there's nothing to be so important about it to the extent that we should open any column to talk about royal gossip. Same goes to Prince Bernhard whereby in the previous weeks, so many bad stories on illegal daughter, Lockeheed bribery and so forth. I mean, we don't need to talk about all those things. Those are gone already. What we should do is to display their good image.

O, come on, we are royalists, man.
Many of us are then not royalists in the way you describe and
if they depended on people who qualified as royalists according to your description they would be in big trouble because it is a very small group who thinks like that.

mentioning the 2 daughters born out of wedlock in the same breath as the lockheed bribery seems strange to me, the first being about love and the latter being about money.
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Old 01-12-2005, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by susan alicia
mentioning the 2 daughters born out of wedlock in the same breath as the lockheed bribery seems strange to me, the first being about love and the latter being about money.
I mentioned both issues as the examples of the bad issues which people talked on the previous weeks during and after the funeral of Prince Bernhard. I don't care whether they are money issue or love issue.

Maybe the 'definition' of royalist I meant previously is seen as 'too radical' but I just don't like to talk something negative about royals even if they are facts. I mean we should not make such issues to be subjected to any criticism.
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Old 01-12-2005, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephram
I mentioned both issues as the examples of the bad issues which people talked on the previous weeks during and after the funeral of Prince Bernhard. I don't care whether they are money issue or love issue.

Maybe the 'definition' of royalist I meant previously is seen as 'too radical' but I just don't like to talk something negative about royals even if they are facts. I mean we should not make such issues to be subjected to any criticism.
It's disrespectful from you to say "we", talking of all the members of this forum like royalists, because I'm not sure everyone is. As for myself, I'm a strong convinced french republican, but very interested in royalties, though, and I can't share your opinion.
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Old 01-12-2005, 10:08 AM
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Ooh hot discussion on TheRoyalForums!
Well as I said in a post before it is not fair and respectful at all if we talk about Grand Duchess Josephine Charlotte that she has done nothing good in her life and was terrorising the whole family as some members did here. She died two days ago after a cancer battle of two years and she was a very strong personality who never stopped thinking to win this battle one time. But despite her astonishing courage she died and left behind a very sad husband (former Grand Duke Jean).
Can you imagine how hard it is for a 84 year old person to lose his wife after 51 years of marriage?:(
Can you imagine how difficult the last years were for the whole Grand Ducal family?:(
Can you imagine how the employees feel which saw her during years? (I saw a woman on TV who cried!):(
Can you imagine how the doctors feel which have done everything possible to help the sick sovereign but however she died?:(

... I stop here because there were even more of these questions to pose!

I have lost in the last years 5 family members and know how terrible it is to lose a related person. And my family is not Royal so we have less administrations which have to be done than after the death of a Grand Duchess. After her death they had to call all the members of the big family and than inform the government, journalists are around Fischbach Castle, the TV is showing pictures the whole day of the Grand Duchess... and so on.

They have so many things to do that it is impossible to them to realize immediately the whole situation. Than, after days with less business they see everywhere the pics of the dear person which has left them. Grand Duke Jean will be alone in Fischbach Castle (his children cannot be there all the time!) and imagine how depressing it is to be alone in such a big castle!:(

That were my thoughts after the death of Grand Duchess Josephine Charlotte!

PS: I remarked today that my signature was saying something about J-C although I have it since the beginning of the year!
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Old 01-12-2005, 05:43 PM
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Yes, poor Jean.In my opinion, he should move in with Henri and MT's family that way he will be surrounded by people and won't be lonely. Of course, living with any of his other children is perfectly fine, but I just thought of Henri first.
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