Joséphine-Charlotte and Maria Teresa's Relationship


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
See posts with no answers
JR76 said:
I don't know much about J-C but I found her an absolute doll in the Danish series "A royal family". Very charming and chuckling with delight and mock horror when talking about how Uncle Goggi tried to put his false teeth down her décolletage.

We all know that Liliane was no summers breeze but what happened on her wedding day? Is what happened a rumour or a stated fact?


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app
Click to expand...

Josephine-Charlotte was upset about the family fight regarding precedence that sprang up within her family over the wedding. Princess Liliane (Stepmother) wanted to take the place of mother of the bride in all events; this was her first big event as Leopold's wife. Her request was refused, and Dowager Queen Elizabeth took her place. There were evidently hurt feelings on both sides, enough so that Elizabeth did not travel with the rest of her family to Luxembourg by train and made the trip by car instead.
 
Olyashka said:
Hmm... if we consider that MT's version of the story is not true, why did GD Henri come along with her in the presscon? Why did he allow MT to malign his mother in public?

I am thinking if he believes his mother wasn't the one spreading that rumor, he would have disapproved of MT holding that presscon.

But he was there with his wife. He supported her. He went there knowing what MT would say. He knew it's his mother who MT would talk badly of.

I know lots of this M-I-L vs. D-I-L stories among royals and in common people life. What I noticed is it's most often the MIL who dislikes/loathes the DIL (examples: Empress Maria Feodorovna nee Princess Dagmar of Denmark vs. Empress Alexandra of Russia nee Pcss Alix of Hesse, my father's mother vs. my mother, many to mention). The reasons vary but it all comes down to a simple generalization ... the MIL thinks her son deserves a better woman.

On this story between JC and MT, I will assume it's JC who disliked MT first (despite being the first to give consent to their marriage) given the 'facts' that a crying GD Henri begged her (JC) to stop being harsh to MT (1988), and that he also supported MT on her 'irrational' presscon.

Btw, I am not here to create a dark image of JC or defend MT. It's just that this topic is interesting as what Schatten said. We never may be able to find out about the truth, however, it's fun to investigate and infer from the things we know about them : )

P.S.
'I've found my Prince Charming': Luxembourg's bride on how she fell in love with her fiancé

How would you describe your relationship with the Grand Duchess?

Stephanie: "Very good. I consider myself very lucky. Since my mother died, the Grand Duchess has been very present in my life, and she has been a sort of second mother here in Luxembourg."

Obviously, Stéphanie is very lucky to have a mother-in-law who stands as her second mother ;)

Nevertheless, time will tell whether that relationship will stay or be broken..
Click to expand...

Is there any source for that 1988 story?
 
I am saying everything calmly... lol, I feel the need to say this as I am taking this discussion seriously and so, it might be thought of that I'm saying my posts in an angry tone. Actually, I'm just talking calmly, in a conversational way ^^

@maria olivia
I have read the whole thread actually before commenting here. I reread this thread's page 4 to find out again if my questions "Why did GD Henri allow MT to have that presscon; why did he allow her to malign his mother JC in public?" but like the time I read that page 1st time, I only found one possible answer why he did that and that is "Henri never had a good relationship with his parents"... but I won't believe that is true.

Letting MT say bad things about his mother on public because he doesn't have a good relationship with her is completely unbelievable, in my opinion. If he has a bad relationship with his mother, he shouldn't have let her see his children, etc.

I'd prefer believing he let MT talk badly of JC because he found his mother's criticism of his wife already too much. For me, if a husband takes his wife's side in a 'conflict between his mother and his wife', he would do anything to try to solve the problem - even if it means allowing something to happen like what MT did just to show to the world to whom his support goes to.

@Schatten
I'm currently investigating on that and I'd tell you once I find something. I also find that detail doubtful as it seems like taken from a fictional book.
 
Last edited:
I thought that it was simply a case of J-C being very unhappy with her son marrying a non-royal and never really getting over that (that's the general concensus in articles that mention the feud)
Are you guys saying that that was not the case?
(if it *was* the case i understand why Henri would stand by his wife in the pressconference...)
 
@Olyashka, thank you!

The late Grand Duchess supported her son's marriage.

I think there are things we will never find out. But i refuse to believe, that Josephine-Charlotte told bad things about her son. I believe, she simply had a problem with M-T on a human level. Which is a normal thing. Maybe something happened, that JC couldn't take.

I try to find something about this incident. The interview. Maybe one day, there will be a book. In another forum I read that M-T has a drinking problem. You see, its pretty wild.

M-T is likely to be different than we think. Why Josephine's daughters and MT were arguing about the jewels? Sure, something happenend.
 
Schatten, that link of the article you found had been posted by Marengo and she did write the main point of what's in it - view her post in page 4 of this thread, post #70. I got the detail of Henri crying from that particular post ^^

I'm very sorry for disregarding your stand that it's not JC who spread that rumor on Mrs. Polfert affair.
You have a point there. As what law says "The alleged suspect is innocent until proven guilty."

I'm also so sorry that I was much focused on saying my assumptions that Henri believed it's his mother who spread that rumor, and that JC is the one who disliked MT (more than how MT disliked JC) , basing from Henri's support of MT.

Back to JC - I am thinking about 3 possibilities, which are:

1) She mentioned that affair to someone and told that person "Make sure to spread it. Let's see if they (H & MT) won't break up."

2) She mentioned as a joke that there's an affair between her son and Mrs. Polfert to someone. However, that person who she told that to/the people who heard her is the one who spread that thing, and it made its way to the press.

3) She has no involvement on that.
It's just MT and Henri assuming she's the one behind that because of her dislike to MT but actually, it's completely just strangers who made that rumor to cause trouble in the Grand Ducal Family.

(Note to first time readers or people who don't have a background on this issue: Scenarios entirely made up by me to illustrate my points. They are not facts.)

I also want to clarify that what I say in my posts are just my opinions. I'm not forcing anyone to agree with me ^^

About MT's drinking problem (+ the nervous breakdown + depression stated in a previous post), I won't believe those. If she had those problems, her children would have grown like other misbehaving, rebellious royals, imo...

May you please also tell me about that Jewels issue? I thank you soo much in advance ^o^
 
Last edited:
It was just a clash of characters. The late Grand-Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte of Luxembourg born Princess of Belgium has had an eventful life, being hostaged even, being exiled, experienced an enforced abdication from her father, went into an arranged royal marriage. It all formed her character, it formed her royal DNA.

María Teresa missed all this. The relationship between mothers- and daughters-in-law in normal life already is often a difficult one. But here it is also the relationship between a Grand-Duchess and a future Grand-Duchess. So it doubles up. Maybe Grand-Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte demanded the highest standards and maybe María Teresa was not that strict. Maybe that clashed with Joséphine-Charlotte's expectations. Maybe there was a fundamental clash in the ideas how the grand-ducal court organization should be run, maybe there was a clash about the choices made regarding the upbringing of the children. We simply not know.

What we know that no one looked more saddened and heartbroken on Grand-Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte's funeral than precizely María Teresa. Both ladies have learned to appreciate each other, a genuine warm bond seem to have grown between the two.
 
:previous:That is perfectly stated Duc, and so much more intelligent and thoughtful a response than the one you often see from J-C detractors putting her attitude down to simple snobbery and racism. I've always believed it was much more complex than that.

It also strikes me that if the relationship between the two women was so bitter why did M-T's children all adore their grandmother so? Guillaume in particular seemed very close to her and was visibly distraught at her funeral...as was his mother.
 
Is it possible that Henri is/was having an affair? I've heard from European friends of mind that it is widely known in Luxembourg that the affair was true, that since Luxembourg is a small country, secrets are not so easily hidden there. Now, I don't know if this is true, but this is what I've heard. Just some food for thought, perhaps Maria Teresa reacted the way that she did because she knew the rumors to be true? You know how it is, it is precisely the truthful dart that hurts the most. By the way, I don't think that M-T and J-C always had such a strained relationship. I've seen early pictures of them together where they seem very lovey dovey. However, people do drift apart and start rubbing each other the run way. Can we speculate that maybe J-C's cancer and M-T's stress over Henri's affair put a strain on the daughter and mother-in-law relation?
 
Last edited:
The biggest clashes seemed to have been in the first decade of María Teresa in Luxembourg, even with rumours of the Hereditary Grand-Duchess being halted at Findel Airport and "guided back" by gentlemen from the palais grand-ducal, back to her guilded cage, Fischbach Castle. It is rumoured Grand-Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte was so astounded by all this and had little understanding, for once lost her perfect royal façade and disapproved her "rebellious" daughter-in-law with the remark of "la petite Cubaine" (the little Cuban).

We do not know what is true of these rumours. We can only judge from what we see and that is that the relationship between the two visibly improved. In all public appearances with her mother-in-law since 2000, Grand-Duchess María Teresa has always been aware to give honour and affirmation to her formidable mother-in-law, being careful not to outshadow the Grand-Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte whom was -we tend to forget- deeply beloved amongst the Luxembourgians.
 
Last edited:
I will never forget the sorrow of Grand Duke Jean attending Josephine Charlotte Funerals in 2005.
 
Last edited:
@Olyashka
That's the Jewels - Thread
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...e-and-luxembourg-jewels-of-the-past-1473.html

Drinking Problem - I've read that she had it for years. I hope it's a rumor, it wouldn't be good.

@Duc
Good point, that's what i tried to say.

@Maria-Olivia
I can't see this section of the funeral without sadness. I wish i could find the entire funeral.


I have a deep affection for Josephine-Charlotte and her life. It is nice that we are talking about it, even if it is not a positive topic.

And I think it's good that everyone here has their own opinion.

Some of you are well informed - can someone tell me the date from which JC had cancer. And when exactly she had the stroke and if there is further information on this.

In her cancer time, it was said, she also had problems with Marie-Astrid and Sibilla. Can someone say something about this?
 
I have long suspected that the marriage of Henri and MT is not the picture perfect idyll it seems to be. I have heard rumors of infidelity on both sides. I have also recently learned from what I consider a reliable source that MT keeps an apartment in Paris where she "escapes" every time she is free from official duties in Luxembourg, and that she does this with Henri's approval. It might be the reason she was on hand in January to attend the anti-terrorist march in the French capital without her husband...she was already in Paris at the time.:cool:

Whatever their problems, they seem as devoted, hardworking and dignified a Royal couple as any in Europe. They have raised a family that, in my opinion, could be a model for most of the others to follow.
 
Last edited:
@Duc et Pair
Thank you for that wonderful post. I wilk keep quiet now regarding JC-MT relationship because I'm very satisfied of your explanation. Thank you very much again ^^

@moonmaiden23
I'm sorry if I seem to be against JC and pro-MT. It is because I think I know what MT felt being disliked by her MIL (assuming her story is true) - I know it from what my mama went through. It is a very terrible feeling - I can feel it whenever my mother is crying from time to time since I was 4. It's even more unbearable for me because it's also a beloved person to me who is hurting her. So that's why I feel pity for MT although I really don't know what things she did which made JC turn against her.

With regards to your question, (again, let's presume JC and MT had been in a bad relationship), I wonder if the 5 does what I and my siblings do. We still love and respect our grandma although we know she and mama are in bad terms because she's adorable in her own way, and our mama didn't teach us to hate her.

@Rayarena
If that affair was true, why did Henri accompany MT at the presscon?
Is it because they thought if only MT appears, the press and public wouldn't believe their denial of that rumor?

It's possible Henri and MT could be as cunning as that, but for me, it's very unlikely that they would do that just to let the other (in this case, Henri) continue with the affair quietly. Also, if they have extramarital affairs, their children wouldn't be as well-brought up as what we see.

@Schatten
Thanks for the link! I will be reading it right now ^^
Of course, it is better to say it isn't true. If MT has that problem, she wouldn't have been able to perform her duties as well as she does until now. Habitual drinking can cause memory and thinking problems. Obviously, MT has no symptoms of that.
If ever she may have had that drinking problem long ago, then why was she able to accomplish a lot of achievements back then, too?

@Moonmaiden23
Has your reliable source seen MT bring another man in that place?

I think that personal Paris apartment is just ok. I can put the situation this way: If ever she has a free time and she'd spend it in Luxembourg, perhaps she would feel like continuing to do other duties, thus, no more vacation for her anymore. So, she and Henri talked about that apartment away from Luxembourg and Henri agreed with her.

Granting her a personal apartment may also mean that Henri trusts her that even though she's away for a vacation, she won't look at other men. Same goes for MT; she trusts Henri that he won't seek other female's company while she's away...

I also think that Paris apartment is for them as a whole. It's just that MT is using it more. I also have an explanation to say why MT was alone in that January anti-terrorist march - Henri had an angioplasty last 2011. Probably, he still has heart/circulation problems until now, and it would be detrimental to join such a march in the midst of hundreds of people.
 
I'm finally done reading the thread of JC's jewelry and its proposed selling. It is very relieving the auction's been cancelled! Thinking about her properties being sold to strangers makes me mournful, esp. those of her mother Queen Astrid's!

Back to topic, what I learned from reading that is both Marie Astrid and Margaretha don't want to share the jewels with MT because of the presscon issue. I understand why they would think about that...
But there's one thing I'm soo confused about... Is it MT who decided for the jewelry to be sold?
Seems like she is not as I have read it's Henri who decided to have those jewelry up for sale. But most posters there seem to blame MT as if she's the one who decided to have those jewelry sold... one even stating that MT wanted to sell those so as to erase any memory left of JC. I think that assumption sounds soo unfair and harsh because that poster doesn't even know what MT's feelings were at that moment.

If JC didn't specify who gets this or that, then M. Astrid and Margaretha could have just taken all JC's jewelry. If MT protests, they could tell her "We are her daughters and you are her daughter-in-law. Who has more right to own our mother's jewelry then?"

Also it's confusing because there are Princes Jean's and Guillaume's wives -DIL's of JC, too- but why were posters in that thread mentioning MT's name against MA and Margaretha only? It's clearly mentioned in the first page of that thread that the selling was due to a conflict among JC's daughters and Daughters in law, not JC's daughters and the reigning Grand Duchess.

However, that case is closed because the auction was cancelled : )

Forgive me for looong posts and too much talking.. I just have so many opinions. I feel like not being able to sleep if I can't say them.
 
Olyashka,
You should stop remaining an old attitude from the past 2002.

A lot of thinks changed during 13 years .
The old Grand Duke is still alive . He attended the Commemoration from his Mother's return to Luxembourg after WW2.

The grand Ducal Family is a great Family .

My hope is the annoucement of a pregnancy for the Heditary grand Duchess.

The Grand Ducal Family is respectful
 
I've read the whole thread a few times and to me the problem here is that we only have one side of the story, J-C may have had a good reason to dislike M-T that she may have chosen to keep private. I can tell you from personal experience that it's not always the mother in-law that's the bad guy, My ex sister in-law was awful to my mother.
 
@maria olivia

Yes, I will stop bringing back the past. I apologize. There's really no sense for me to ask things and continue inferring this or that. I was just madly curious about this issue.

@lise
You're right with that... so I must stop pitying MT already...

To everyone of you who shared their knowledge and opinions, thank you very much ~ I learned a lot : )

P.S. The baby news will come this year for sure. I will pray along with all Luxembourg Royals' fans ^^
 
I think with the apartment we have gone a little too far. What is she doing there or not, we don't know.

I agree with Lise. That's what I think too.

As long there is no first-hand story, it's hard to believe Maria-Teresa. Josephine-Charlotte never went to the press. She has been a king's daughter and her mother was one of the most popular queens. Her brothers were both kings and she herself was a Grand Duchess. I think she knew how to handle things.

Some situations don't need to be public (of course it's interesting for us), and that is exactly what Maria-Teresa done wrong. And that is the main difference between these two Ladies.

The one takes it, the other goes out and cries.

I'm not against someone (i have to admit, M-T is not my favorite royal), but there is no judging on Josephine-Charlotte, when there is no prove (well, one of my favorite royals).
 
Moonmaiden23 said:
I have long suspected that the marriage of Henri and MT is not the picture perfect idyll it seems to be. I have heard rumors of infidelity on both sides. I have also recently learned from what I consider a reliable source that MT keeps an apartment in Paris where she "escapes" every time she is free from official duties in Luxembourg, and that she does this with Henri's approval. It might be the reason she was on hand in January to attend the anti-terrorist march in the French capital without her husband...she was already in Paris at the time.:cool:

Whatever their problems, they seem as devoted, hardworking and dignified a Royal couple as any in Europe. They have raised a family that, in my opinion, could be a model for most of the others to follow.
Click to expand...


Whatever works for them. Who are we too judge. No marriage is the same.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app
 
Josephine Charlotte had to keep her emotions in check from a very early age. Also, she was the emotional and motherly support for her two brothers after the death of Astrid. That toughened her up, I'm certain.

Then, she had a very difficult step-mother to deal with, German occupation and confinement during WWII, exile and the forced abdication of her father. It is merely speculation, according to what I know, that she was in love with a commoner. I thought I read a story about Leopold III telling how JC came to him and happily announced her engagement to Jean. So, there's two sides to that issue. Charlotte and Elizabeth were keen for a match between JC and Jean.

Her wedding pre-festivities and the day itself were super stressful thanks to Lillian de Rethy and it wasn't just JC who was stressed and upset, but also Elizabeth as well.

Now, it seems to me that JC was a tightly wound package. That's no character flaw. It's just a character trait.

It is my opinion that what MT did after Josephine Charlotte's death was reprehensible. She spoke about someone who could not (and never would have had she been alive) defend herself or provide her own context or side of the story. To blab to the press is a real character flaw, in my humble opinion, especially about the dead. And, what a horrible slap in the face to Jean and disrespect for the ducal house and family.

That does not mean that I dislike MT, that just means that I think it was not only a faux pas, but a horribly tacky move.

Just my .02
 
:previous:
Actually the famous press conference dates back to 2002, when Josephine Charlotte was still alive.
 
It is only natural that members of the famille grand-ducal have a pied-à-terre in Paris. I would love to have an appartment as well in Paris. Having nice weekends there, to load up the battery. Of course we can fill it in as a "love nest" for María Teresa but I think it is just a second home in use for members of the famille grand-ducal when in Paris.
 
I agree, and I don't believe it's any sort of "love nest" either. It's perhaps just a place where MT can get out of the Grand Duchy when she feels a need. The late Princess Grace also spent much time in Paris at the family pied-a-terre.

Both Monaco and Luxembourg sound like they can be claustrophobic.:ermm:
 
Moonmaiden23 said:
I agree, and I don't believe it's any sort of "love nest" either. It's perhaps just a place where MT can get out of the Grand Duchy when she feels a need. The late Princess Grace also spent much time in Paris at the family pied-a-terre.

Both Monaco and Luxembourg sound like they can be claustrophobic.:ermm:
Click to expand...

The monegasque princely family still has a château with a domain (larger than the principality...) in Picardie, against the Belgian Border (Château de Marchais). That is just 150 km from Paris. Luxembourg-Paris is around 375-400 km depending on the route.
 
episcogal said:
I thought I read a story about Leopold III telling how JC came to him and happily announced her engagement to Jean. So, there's two sides to that issue. Charlotte and Elizabeth were keen for a match between JC and Jean.


.02
Click to expand...


She told herself in "A royal family" about how when she told her father about her engagement he rather terrified asked to whom she was engaged too and also his apparent relief when it was to Jean of Luxenburg... and then after finishing the story she chuckled rather dearly.

Judging from that story it doesn't seem like an arranged marriage to me. Maybe arranged in the sense that both JC and J knew from what circles they where expected to find a spouse like it was for most of their royal contemporaries but other than that nothing forced about it. For instance both JCs mother and two aunts all married for love to three princes with Astrid so full of emotions that she spilled tea on Leopold when he visited her parents for the first time and Margareta so visibly in love with her Axel that her mother said they couldn't be trusted to be left alone in a furnished room.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app
 
Duc_et_Pair said:
The monegasque princely family still has a château with a domain (larger than the principality...) in Picardie, against the Belgian Border (Château de Marchais). That is just 150 km from Paris. Luxembourg-Paris is around 375-400 km depending on the route.
Click to expand...


Yes, I've known about Marchais for years. During the reign of Rainier III there were documentaries and photo shoots of the Princely family relaxing there. It's a very ancient(17th century?) and stunning castle. But the Grimaldis also kept a large apartment in Paris, in the exclusive 16th arrondissement, with their Arms rather ostentatiously displayed on the balcony. I don't know if they still own it.

Shortly before their wedding Albert and Charlene began renovations at Chateau Marchais.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Marengo
Grand Duke Henri & Grand Duchess Maria Teresa, Current Events 9: Aug 2023 -
2 3
Replies
78
Views
9K
Stefan
Stefan
Marengo
  • Sticky
Luxembourg: Birthday and Anniversary Wishes 2024
2
Replies
48
Views
2K
An Ard Ri
An Ard Ri
M
Family Bylaws Concerning the House Law of the House of Luxembourg-Nassau
Replies
1
Views
415
Tatiana Maria
T
Marengo
  • Locked
Grand Duke Henri & Grand Duchess Maria Teresa, Current Events 8: June 2018 - present
29 30 31
Replies
923
Views
129K
Marengo
Marengo
JessRulz
  • Locked
Grand Duke Henri & Grand Duchess Maria Teresa, Current Events 7: May 2014 - June 2018
12 13 14
Replies
394
Views
72K
Marengo
Marengo

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom