Joséphine-Charlotte and Maria Teresa's Relationship


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
When did Catherine Oxenberg get into the picture??
GD Henri was in love with Catherine of Linburg Stirrum grandaughter of the Comtess
de Paris. When they broke up he was very upset. He met Maria Teresa at the
University of Geneva where they were both studying.
 
Ok who is this Catherine of Linburg Stirrum ???? Anyone got a pic and a forum where to find info about her??
 
Catherine de Limburg-Stirum is the eldest daughter of Count Evrard de Limburg-Stirum and his wife Countess Helene, Princess of France, herself the daughter of the late Count and Countess of Paris.
Catherine also is first cousin of Count Rodolphe de Limburg-Stirum, the husband of Henri's niece Archduchess Marie-Christine of Austria.
 
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She was the Count and Countess de Paris's first grandchild. After many strange years she divorced and is often seen at Belgians events. She is still Catherine de LS.
I am not sure about her relationship with Gand Duke Henri of L
How proud should have been the Orléans! a grandchild on a throne !
This has nothing to do with Grand Duchess J. Ch and Maria Theresia..M.T.'s behaviour at that moment was totaly
 
The rumor about Catherine de Limburg-Stirum and Henri was in Point de Vue many years ago. One of the "royal experts" on Robert's boards has said that he felt it was "just a rumor" started when Henri and Catherine both attended a wedding and were seen together.

I read that the reason Maria Teresa met secretly with the press was because Josephine-Charlotte was spreading rumors that Henri was having an affair with Lydie Polfer, a prominent Luxembourg politician. When the press came to lunch, Henri was supposedly completely supportive of Maria Teresa's tearful claim that this was not true. (Apparently, the affair was written about in the "yellow" press.)
 
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Wasn't it exactly that which she openly said to the press, that JC was spreading rumours about Lydie Polfert? I believe it was reported immidiately in the papers at the time. In what year was this meeting btw? 2002?
 
Yes, it happened in Summer 2002. I remember to have read something on newspapers, and more or less it happened that dueing the meeting with the press at the Grand Ducal Palace, Maria Teresa crying denied the rumors about the affair between the Grand Duke and Mrs. Polfer and also the rumors that she was going to leave Luxembourg to return to Cuba, and she also added that these rumors were all spread by her mother-in-law Josephine Charlotte, who deeply disliked her because she was a commoner.
 
Sad isn't it. Can't understand why someone would be so disliked because of being a commoner. It seems like Josephine Charlotte never really got to know Maria Teresa or didn't try to get to know her. There was really no reason for her mother-in-law to be that way. If she had been mean or nasty to her or had done things or said things to embarass or make the family look bad, then her mother-in-law would have reason to not like her.

Maria Teresa has never been involved in any scandal and has basically been scandal free. She is devoted to her husband and family.
 
While Josephine-Charlotte was very difficult with Maria Teresa, what was Grand Duke Jean's relationship like with Maria Teresa. I've always gotten the impression from pictures that his relationship wasn't so prickly and he was more welcoming. If this has been discussed before, I apologize.
 
An article from the Belgian 'Le Soir' about the matter, dating from 2002:

Tempte au Palais grand-ducal Luxembourg Depuis plusieurs

courtesy: Zita at All Things Royal.

---

According to the article GD Henri was present too. The newspaper states that Henri never had a good relationship with his parents. It adds that the problems escalated at a castle in Belgium in 1988, where Henri apparently was crying & asking JC to stop her attacks at MT. The reason for this were JC's harsh words to Stephane Bern, who wanted to make a documentary on Henri and MT. JC told him that: 'my son has nothing to say'.
 
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Mt is not a nice and kind person

Things and people are not always as they appear. MT is not a kind and nice person; maybe JC saw the side of her that she so aptly conceals.






I think that you have not the right to say that Josephine-Charlotte was not kind and good. She was very dedicated in the SOS children's village for example and President of the Luxembourgish Red Cross. In December 2003 there was a Gala of the SOS children's village and despite her illness she was present which shows us that this projects were very important for her. In 1997 there was a serious train accident in Luxembourg with many victims and she visited the injured people and consolated them!;)

She lost her parents when she was very young (only seven years old) and she was like a mother for the brothers Baudouin and Albert. Thus she was a strong personality.:)

I think she had also a good relationship with her children as I saw on TV reports.

But I'm sorry that she had a bad relationship with Maria Teresa!:( She had a very conservative point of view and didn't want that her son married a commoner and because of that she didn't like Maria Teresa. That's one explanation, the second is that Maria Teresa was related with a person involved in the Cuban revolution, the dictator Fulgencio Batista as I wrote in this part of the forum:
Any Pics Of Maria Teresa When She Was Young? - Page 3 - The Royal Forums (Please read this!;) )

Although she had a nasty man in the family, Grand Duchess Maria Teresa is a very nice and kind person which makes so many good things and I really like her (it's not her fault that this Batista was nasty;) !) But J-C didn't think like this but developped some sort of hate for M-T and I remember you that many mother-in-law have bad relationships with their daughter-in-law and especially among Royals (as you can see in other Royal families!;) ).

It is a pity that J-C and M-T had a bad relationship because both are/were dedicated in helping other people. J-C rarely showed emotions and because of that many people have a wrong image of her.

I respect both persons and I think that it is really sad that Josephine-Charlotte has gone from us and certainly Maria Teresa has forgiven her and is feeling like all member of the Grand Ducal family and many people in Luxembourg: "You were une Grande Dame and we will never forget the good things you did!"

PS: Do you think really the news in foreign countries would have mentioned her death more if she had a better relationship with Maria Teresa? No, because for most of the journalists Luxembourg isn't interesting or they completely ignore where this country is!
 
Sorry I don't want to offend but, was JC racist? I ask this because one of the reasons she did not like MT was that she is Cuban.
 
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I don't think she was a racist as such - just a representative of the old school.
Some ideas and (unfortunately) prejudices were normal for certain eras.
 
I think it may have been the other way around, because there grew difficulties between JC and MT, JC looked for things to make remarks about.

Still, where did we hear the often repeated 'petite cubaine'? What is the source for it? AFAIK the only source for any of this was the interview that an emotional MT gave to the press. Who says that her version is the correct one? JC had the good sense never to speak about it in public. Who says that for example MT unstable, over emotional and not seeing things correctly? In the end only a few people, close to both ladies will know the truth.

And for all those who say that JC ws not a nice person: how do you know? As said, who says that MT's version is the truth? And even if she wasn't nice to MT, who says that she was a nasty person to others? I remember that at her funeral many people seemed emotional, apart from her own family (MT included), several Queens seemed to be crying too (among others). She and her husband also seemed quite appreciated by QEII, judging from their balcony attendance after several parades (as only foreign royals), and in the Danish programme 'A Royal Family' the late Grand Duchess seemed witty, quite the reverse from what her somewhat severe look on pictures would make you expect.

And again: where did the stories come from that JC was against a marriage? I always read that she was the first to support her son in his choice. That she convinced GD Jean. It was Jeans mother Charlotte who did not attend the wedding, but after the birth of HGD Guillaume she seemed to warm up to MT.
 
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Where did we hear the often repeated 'petite cubaine'? What is the source for it? AFAIK the only source for any of this was the interview that an emotional MT gave to the press. Who says that her version is the correct one? JC had the good sense never to speak about it in public. Who says that for example MT unstable, over emotional and not seeing things correctly? In the end only a few people, close to both ladies will know the truth...

I don't think we will ever know what happened to their relationship over the years. Your point is well taken that not just JC, but also MT has been rumored to have a difficult personality. I have read that MT has a drinking problem, suffers from depression and has had a nervous breakdown. Who knows? I do think we can say that inviting the press to lunch and dissing her mother-in-law was certainly not very rational behavior. And would JC really have told people that Henri was having an affair with Lydie Polfer, as MT stated at the press luncheon? Doesn't sound believable to me. (Although there is some question as to whether JC had a stroke in her later years, so maybe she was a little off.) It is all very hard to figure out.
 
Unbelievable royal attitude from MT . Even the Press was shocked. Family affairs are private.
 
I heard from a lot of people that Josephine-Charlotte is an old-fashioned monarch and well, in this case, she wanted that all of her children to marry the blue-blooded kids; just like the older times.

But I was wondering does Hereditary Grand Duke Guillaume's birth mend their relationships?
 
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LadySarah I have heard and read different things...some sources say they made peace, and others indicate otherwise.

I do know that HGD Guillaume seemed to adore her, and J-C doted on all five of Henri and MT's children.
 
I think the relationship of MT and Stephanie will not be the same as MT and Tessy
 
Stephanie will be Hereditary Grand Duchess, and eventually Grand Duchess of Luxembourg which of course is the position that MT now holds.

She will marry MT's eldest son...naturally that might cause some underlying tension. But I am not prepared to automatically assume that it will be a difficult relationship as a result. MT is an intelligent woman, she must realize that for the sake of her son's future happiness AND success as a sovereign in his own right when the time comes, she should try to help and support his new wife as much as possible.
 
On the subject of royals marrying commoners: it is a good practice, genetically. Too close inbreeding is harmful in many cases (not all). Look at what great looking children GD Henri and GD Maria Teresa had. And now HGD Guillaume is marrying an aristocrat with a very long pedigree (I looked it up and it is mind-boggling in extent, somewhat like Princess Diana's). It is probably excellent that Guillaume and siblings had a "vacation" from inbreeding. I would not be surprised if the acceptance of commoner brides for royalty is in part based on the realization of genetic hazard. Prince Charles marrying Diana was not exactly a "vacation" from inbreeding, as she had a long pedigree. Maria Teresa was a beautiful vacation, as is Catherine Middleton, Mary of Denmark, Mathilde of Belgium (do I have that right, Mathilde) and others to come. Marrying close relatives is not bad if there are no hereditary defects, but if there are?
 
She will marry MT's eldest son...naturally that might cause some underlying tension. But I am not prepared to automatically assume that it will be a difficult relationship as a result. MT is an intelligent woman, she must realize that for the sake of her son's future happiness AND success as a sovereign in his own right when the time comes, she should try to help and support his new wife as much as possible.
Of course she is; she accepted at once her first grandchild, although he was born out of wedlock, whereas earlier her brother-in-law Jean and his beloved Helene were rejected at the beginning for having a child out of wedlock. Henri was , in fact, the only family member who didn't push them off.
 
Grand Duchess MT is the boss of the family and a happy and intelligent woman. She will do her very best that her family remains happy .
 
Of course she is; she accepted at once her first grandchild, although he was born out of wedlock, whereas earlier her brother-in-law Jean and his beloved Helene were rejected at the beginning for having a child out of wedlock. Henri was , in fact, the only family member who didn't push them off.

I think that Prince Jean had support from all of his siblings, not just Henri. For example, his sister Princess Margaretha is godmother to his daughter Marie-Gabrielle. And didn't all of Jean's siblings attend Constantin's christening, along with Prince Philippe of Belgium? His parents never attended any of his children's christenings, standing "on principle."
 
On the subject of royals marrying commoners: it is a good practice, genetically. Too close inbreeding is harmful in many cases (not all). Look at what great looking children GD Henri and GD Maria Teresa had. And now HGD Guillaume is marrying an aristocrat with a very long pedigree (I looked it up and it is mind-boggling in extent, somewhat like Princess Diana's). It is probably excellent that Guillaume and siblings had a "vacation" from inbreeding. I would not be surprised if the acceptance of commoner brides for royalty is in part based on the realization of genetic hazard. Prince Charles marrying Diana was not exactly a "vacation" from inbreeding, as she had a long pedigree. Maria Teresa was a beautiful vacation, as is Catherine Middleton, Mary of Denmark, Mathilde of Belgium (do I have that right, Mathilde) and others to come. Marrying close relatives is not bad if there are no hereditary defects, but if there are?

I agree with what you say, I just like to add a small caveat. Stephanie's pedigree is not "somewhat like Princess Diana's," Stephanie leaves Diana in the dust! Remember, Diana's family--while impressive---was ennobled in 1603, while Stephanie's dates back to the 13th century if I'm not mistaken. That is to say, she have four centuries of nobility over Diana!!!

If Guillaume was looking for nobility in a match, he could not have done better. What a match!
 
HGD Guillaume is indeed making one of the most dazzling marriages in recent Royal history, but I don't think he set out to deliberately find an aristocrat...reading between the lines he met this girl years ago at his cousin's party, and she entered and stayed on his radar. But they went their separate ways and did not enter one another's lives again in a significant fashion until much later.

Apparently the old attraction was only then re-awakened and voila! She obviously had other qualities that drew him, her ancient and very noble pedigree must have been icing on the cake at that point. :whistling:

As for MT and J-C, I am going to stick by the belief that the old wounds had been mostly healed or at least set aside by the time of J-C's final illness. MT looked genuinely sorrowful at the older woman's funeral.

BTW: Princess Mathilde descends from one of Poland's oldest, most distinguished aristocratic families. In that way, her marriage to Philippe is about as different from Kate's and Mary's as it's possible to be...in other words it was hardly a "vacation" at all.

Mathilde-like Stephanie de Lannoy-was raised in a castle. Almost a princess in all but name.
 
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I think the "vacation" here describes not from the same gene pool, not from the same family, which exponentially increases the chances of "better" offspring.
 
I don't think that royals are sacrosanct. They are in the public eye and must behave with a certain amount of dignity. A lot of them do not (Monaco's royals).
Royal or not Josephine Carlotte was not a good mother-in-law. She made her son's wife feel bad and inspite of the fact that dignity is a must, everyone has a breaking point. I do not blame Maria Teresa. Go you MT.
 
First of all, we have to remember that both Josephine-Charlotte and Maria Teresa comes from different generations and has different personalities that can create some frictions.
I think it is hard to gauge what kind of mother-in-law Josephine-Charlotte is because we don't know her. However, just because Maria Teresa chose to spilled to the press her opinion of Josephine-Charlotte doesn't mean I'm going to believe her entirely. I don't entirely blame Josephine-Charlotte for all frictions their relationship nor do I believe Maria Teresa is entirely innocent in that matter since it has been said that MT has a difficult personality and can be hard to get along with.
 
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