Joséphine-Charlotte and Maria Teresa's Relationship

[gaggleofcrazypeople]

Oh, ok. I was getting a little confused. So back on MT and JC, do you think that MT now feels really bad about it?

 

[msfroyste]

apparently so. mt was holding a handkerchief and was visibly upset at the visitation on tues, so there could be some sadness there b/c mt seems to be a pretty sensitive person.

 

[Lena]

Looking at the whole discussion, I wouldn´t say either, that Josephine Charlotte was a bad person! She surely had her faults...pretty "human" faults, if you ask me. Conflicts between mother-in-laws and daughter-in-laws are pretty normal! A mother wants only the best for her son...and in the case of JC the "best" was defined through her education. Then maybe in the long run, MT made it pretty easy for JC to treat her with no respect. It´s IMO also pretty human, that you take advantage of a situation of power (MT tried probably all to please her mother-in-law). So maybe the little revenge of MT in 2002 (to talk to the press) was finally a connecting factor/point for those 2 women. And JC has seen, that she can´t do all with her daughter-in-law, what she wants.
Of course I can´t say, if I´m right, I can only hope, they have made peace, before JC passed away. And I would say, we shouldn´t take this conflict as only factor to judge JC´s life. Since we aren´t part of the grand ducal family (but live in own families with own problems) , it´s not up to us to judge their family life, we should rather focus on the things JC has done for Luxembourg and the world.

 

[susan alicia]

Looking at the whole discussion, I wouldn´t say either, that Josephine Charlotte was a bad person! She surely had her faults...pretty "human" faults, if you ask me. Conflicts between mother-in-laws and daughter-in-laws are pretty normal! A mother wants only the best for her son...and in the case of JC the "best" was defined through her education. Then maybe in the long run, MT made it pretty easy for JC to treat her with no respect. It´s IMO also pretty human, that you take advantage of a situation of power (MT tried probably all to please her mother-in-law). So maybe the little revenge of MT in 2002 (to talk to the press) was finally a connecting factor/point for those 2 women. And JC has seen, that she can´t do all with her daughter-in-law, what she wants.
Of course I can´t say, if I´m right, I can only hope, they have made peace, before JC passed away. And I would say, we shouldn´t take this conflict as only factor to judge JC´s life. Since we aren´t part of the grand ducal family (but live in own families with own problems) , it´s not up to us to judge their family life, we should rather focus on the things JC has done for Luxembourg and the world.

"Then maybe in the long run, MT made it pretty easy for JC to treat her with no respect. It´s IMO also pretty human, that you take advantage of a situation of power (MT tried probably all to please her mother-in-law)."

Lena, this is probably meant to sound as a moral lesson to us all but you do not always make sense to me.

re the mink coat of MT (I do not like mink coats, makes women look like giant squirrels) at the funeral, strange that considering how her mother in law might have thought her not good enough she chose to wear a status symbol at the funeral, something modest woudl be more sympathetic. it is not that cold in Luxemburg.

 

[Lena]

Dear Susanstotz, this was actually not meant as moral lesson, but was just my point of view. I just tried to judge this situation by making different points, and by offering different views. All posters tell here their views of situations-in a friendly and respectful way. And yes, this is now a moral lesson (to you)

 

[Alexandria]

re the mink coat of MT (I do not like mink coats, makes women look like giant squirrels) at the funeral, strange that considering how her mother in law might have thought her not good enough she chose to wear a status symbol at the funeral, something modest woudl be more sympathetic. it is not that cold in Luxemburg.

I don't know what the temperature was exactly but it seemed to have been at least a chill in the air. I saw a few pictures of Queen Sofia exiting the church and she was clutching her jacket closer to her. And mink isn't just about keeping warm either; Maria Teresa's jacket could've been very light weight or even fake fur -- diminishing the point of it being a social status at all.

I don't think that Maria Teresa intended the mink coat to be a jab at her mother in law or something to make a point of any sort to anyone. Lots of women, those who were born royal and those who have married into royal households were wearing fur to some extent. Queen Beatrix wore a fur hat and her cloak was trimmed with fur.

 

[bad_barbarella]

I still dont believe that the two had problems... it could just be a big ruhmour that spread over the years... mabye they weren't close at the start, then grew on each other...

 

[hillary_nugent]

It's just the 'in-law' myth you know the one how the mother-in-law is suppose to be horrid ^___^

 

[gaggleofcrazypeople]

I don't know what the temperature was exactly but it seemed to have been at least a chill in the air.

Snow has already fallen, so it is pretty cold there.

 

[hillary_nugent]

re the mink coat of MT (I do not like mink coats, makes women look like giant squirrels) at the funeral, strange that considering how her mother in law might have thought her not good enough she chose to wear a status symbol at the funeral, something modest woudl be more sympathetic. it is not that cold in Luxemburg.

maybe the coat MT wore was the only coat she had then that was black and not to flashy...everyone was wearing coats so maybe it was a bit chilly...i don't think MT wore the coat to spite JC or anything of that sort...

 

[KatieLouise]

Yes, let's be fair - I'm sure the clothes that Maria Teresa wore had no deeper, spiteful meaning.

 

[gaggleofcrazypeople]

After all, it was such a sad funeral, I don't think MT would have wanted to spite JC.

 

[Nathalian]

I belive she didn´t wore those coat just to be superior.....please, even if she hated JC, MT was very sad, crying at the funeral, she respected JC.....And, I don´t think that clothes is a way of saying that you´re best then another person...

 

[gaggleofcrazypeople]

She was crying? I didn't see her crying.

 

[RoseMary]

I think MT had a respect for JC as far as the role of Grand Duchess. I can say that there was tension between the two because of JC conservative views on marriage. JC wanted Henri to marry a blueblood. JC herself was born a blueblood so her reaction to Henri marry a regular girl is not surprising.

JC did at times come across as cold. She and MT did/do alot of charity and humanitarian work. Whether or not MT cried is a guess because most of the pictures are repeats of eachother so you have some 24 pictures and half are repeats. I didn't cry at my uncles funeral so not crying doesn't mean she was upset. I don't think that JC and MT had cat fights on a regular basis but I hope towards the end they made an attempt to bury the hatchet.

 

[rere]

She was crying? I didn't see her crying.
Several in attendance were crying.

 

[gaggleofcrazypeople]

But she probably wasn't as close to JC as Henri or Jean.

 

[scooter]

It's just the 'in-law' myth you know the one how the mother-in-law is suppose to be horrid ^___^

Trust me, I speak from experience.....some Mothers in law are indeed horrible! Just because some one is royal does NOT make them nice to the person 'who is not good enough' for their precious 'baby'. even after that 'not good enough' person has been a great spouse to MIL's 'baby' for decades!

 

[BurberryBrit]

Isn't it true that a friend of the family set up Henri and MT? So when did she become unsuitable to JC I wonder?

 

[Royal historian]

why could nt maria teresa come with the fact that her mother in law dislike her because she's intitle.obviously if she didnt want to be in this mess she should have refuse to marry the grand duke and urge him to marry the kind of woman his parent wish him to marry maria had done nothing wrong except the fact that she's the first cuban woman who enter one of europe monarchy and the fact that her family had to be exile might makes grand duchess cj anxious cause marisa family maybe some foreign fugitive. but i must say grand duke henry was tough because to get your father approval to which a woman everymember of your family were not to accept now that is tough

 

[Marengo]

Isn't it true that a friend of the family set up Henri and MT? So when did she become unsuitable to JC I wonder?

It is said that after JC's stroke she changed a bit, also towards MT. But she she is usually discribed as a 'difficult' woman, also before the stroke. She was supposed to be like this to all her children-in-law, not only Maria Theresa.

why could nt maria teresa come with the fact that her mother in law dislike her because she's intitle.obviously if she didnt want to be in this mess she should have refuse to marry the grand duke and urge him to marry the kind of woman his parent wish him to marry maria had done nothing wrong except the fact that she's the first cuban woman who enter one of europe monarchy and the fact that her family had to be exile might makes grand duchess cj anxious cause marisa family maybe some foreign fugitive. but i must say grand duke henry was tough because to get your father approval to which a woman everymember of your family were not to accept now that is tough

As far as I know Josephine Charlotte supported her son in marrying a commoner, she persuaded her husband to accept the union. It was GDss Charlotte who had more doubts but she warmed up to MT later. The relationship between JC and MT was said to be a troubled one, but that has other reasons than that MT was a commoner.
Henri was interested in Countess Catherine de Limburg-Stirum (daughter of Princess Helene of France) but she didn't fancy a future as Grand Duchess.

 

[tan_berry]

why could nt maria teresa come with the fact that her mother in law dislike her because she's intitle.obviously if she didnt want to be in this mess she should have refuse to marry the grand duke and urge him to marry the kind of woman his parent wish him to marry maria had done nothing wrong except the fact that she's the first cuban woman who enter one of europe monarchy and the fact that her family had to be exile might makes grand duchess cj anxious cause marisa family maybe some foreign fugitive. but i must say grand duke henry was tough because to get your father approval to which a woman everymember of your family were not to accept now that is tough

Alfonso XIII´s eldest child (a son with the hemophilia problem) married two cuban women, but they did not enter into royalty because with the first marriage he had to resign his hereditary rights.

It is said that mothers-in-law are the main solvent of marriages. In China that problem used to be a real tragedy for women. I ignore how things are now.

 

[Royal historian]

ok now at the funeral i did nt see grand duchess maria teresa crying all i see is that she was sad unlike the queen of norway ,queen of spain and queen of netherlands these women show more emotion than the grand duchess maria .i think she must had been both sad and happy sad because sha had lost a woman whom shae had know for more than a quarter of century and happy cause all the hated is now gone with the decease

 

[Lindy]

"
re the mink coat of MT at the funeral, strange that considering how her mother in law might have thought her not good enough she chose to wear a status symbol at the funeral, something modest would be more sympathetic. it is not that cold in Luxemburg.

Maria Teresa comes from a VERY wealthy family. She and her family wore fur long before she became a Grand Duchess. In fact, her wedding dress was trimmed with fur, as were the coats that she and her mother wore on the day they took the train to Luxembourg (from Paris?) to meet Henri at the border before the wedding. I have seen pictures of Maria Teresa's sister and sister-in-law wearing fur, along with her grandmother. I don't think MT thinks twice about wearing fur. (BTW, I found Luxembourg very chilly and damp when I visited.)

 

[Lindy]

As far as I know Josephine Charlotte supported her son in marrying a commoner, she persuaded her husband to accept the union. It was GDss Charlotte who had more doubts but she warmed up to MT later. The relationship between JC and MT was said to be a troubled one, but that has other reasons than that MT was a commoner.
Henri was interested in Countess Catherine de Limburg-Stirum (daughter of Princess Helene of France) but she didn't fancy a future as Grand Duchess.

Apparently, Henri had been very upset about Catherine and JC didn't want to see him upset again. Remember that even though Maria Teresa was not royalty, she was ideal in many ways. She was well-educated, fluent in four languages, and a Roman Catholic. Henri and MT dated for four years before they became engaged and she had no "past." She was from a wealthy family and was raised with the social graces necessary to interact with prominent people. She grew up in a fabulous house (mansion?) in Geneva. (To give you an idea, her parents' house in Cuba is now used as a foreign embassy). She study dance, played tennis and took many ski vacations with her family. In her spare time, she did charity work with the elderly. On top on this, she was very attractive with a beautiful smile and a charismatic personality. Her parents were good friends with a Spanish couple who were also close friends with Josephine-Charlotte, so she was somewhat of a known quantity.

It is not clear what changed JC's feelings toward MT. Some articles have suggested that Maria Teresa was more popular with the Luxembourg people and had an easier time interacting with the public, both of which JC resented. But really, we don't know.

 

[Regina]

It is said that after JC's stroke she changed a bit, also towards MT. But she she is usually discribed as a 'difficult' woman, also before the stroke. She was supposed to be like this to all her children-in-law, not only Maria Theresa.

I thought Josephine-Charlotte was always very fond of Sybilla and that she felt very happy with the marriage of his son with Sybilla (a great-granddaughter of King Alfonso of Spain).

 

[Lalla Meriem]

It was J-C who actually convinced GD Jean to approve of the marriage (along with Henri's promise to renounce if he wasn't permitted her) between Henri and MT. Whether or not she liked MT on a personal level she certainly didn't try to prevent their marriage. One has to take into account that a the time of J-C's own marriage to Jean she was in love with a tennis player whom she wished to marry. Jean was also said to be in love with another women. They were both royal and it was an arranged marriage. Those tears that J-C was crying at her own marriage were not tears of happiness. J-C actually understood Henri's desire to marry the person he loved and very much supported his right to choose his partner no matter how inappropriate she felt the match was.

I think someone deserves a little room to be difficult after having been forced to marry someone you didn't love while you were so in love with another man. Despite the fact that GD Jean is undoubtedly a good man and made a fine husband and father I am sure that J-C (and probably also Jean) held some resentment toward life and those who were happily married to partners the choose. There is no doubt that J-C and Jean were in love later in their marriage but still...

Maria Teresa comes from a VERY wealthy family. She and her family wore fur long before she became a Grand Duchess. In fact, her wedding dress was trimmed with fur, as were the coats that she and her mother wore on the day they took the train to Luxembourg (from Paris?) to meet Henri at the border before the wedding. I have seen pictures of Maria Teresa's sister and sister-in-law wearing fur, along with her grandmother. I don't think MT thinks twice about wearing fur. (BTW, I found Luxembourg very chilly and damp when I visited.)

Indeed, MT's family is said to be wealthier than the Grand Ducal Family.

 

[Lady Claire]

They were civil to eatch other I'm guessing.
The proof is in the picture. (they are talking to each other in the background)
Picture from corbis.com

 

[grandlordbenji16]

well i think henri marriage with catherine oxenberg would have been splendid one and j-c- nerve would have been much calm and happy toward a noble daughter in law and i dislike when princes threaten to give up their place to the throne if they are not allow to marry who they want i believe one should not ask for too much of life and accept what is possible and your fate

 

[Lighthouse]

well i think henri marriage with catherine oxenberg would have been splendid one and j-c- nerve would have been much calm and happy toward a noble daughter in law and i dislike when princes threaten to give up their place to the throne if they are not allow to marry who they want i believe one should not ask for too much of life and accept what is possible and your fate

Well if they have an "heir and a spare" I think it's perfectly fine for a crown prince to renounce his place.