The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #21  
Old 12-03-2008, 03:28 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kirkland, United States
Posts: 682
Who can say that if Henri abdicates and Guillaume becomes the Grand Duke that he also would refuse to sign this piece of legislation into law?
I live in Washington state and a euphanasia bill was just passed. As I understand it, a person wishing to die in this manner has to be examined and questioned by several doctors and psychiatrists. It is a long and very involved process.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-03-2008, 04:19 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: brisbane, Australia
Posts: 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sg1fan View Post
The Grand Duke would be excommunicated from the Catholic Church if he signed the document and he made a choice to prevent that from happening. As a Roman Catholic he CAN NOT sign it, even if he wanted to without risking the Pope telling him he can not receive sacraments any longer (which is what excommunication is). It's why his Uncle abdicated for a day. He's between a rock and a hard place here. It's his faith or a rubber stamp which apparently means nothing anyway. Easy choice, in my opinion. If Luxembourg wants a Catholic monarch, they had to have understood that would be the decision. It's not like the Church has changed their opinion on this type of issue from when his Uncle abdicated.
So what comes first. religon or the state/ This is the very thing that Islamic states are criticsed for, putting the religon before a democratically elected parliment. I understand he is in a difficult position and certainly would not want to be im his position but as a democratic country then majority rules, not some fellow in a totally different country.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-03-2008, 04:21 AM
Jacknch's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Grundisburgh, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,781
This is a very difficult situation and one in which a solution might not easily be found. What is the general consensus on euthanasia in Luxembourg? Does it have much support from the citizens of Luxembourg? It has always been my hope that a good monarch is there unltimately to protect and support the people of a nation so that if the government of the day tries to bring in unpopular laws that are clearly not desired by the people, the monarch should step in and veto that law. Perhaps the solution in this instance only (i.e. where there is a "threat" of major constitutional change or possible abdication) there should be a referendum and the Grand Duke and government of Luxembourg agree to back down from their individual stances depending on the result.
Democracy is a strange thing sometimes - the people get to vote for a government every few years but it ends there (and you might not get the government you voted for) and the government of the day could well end up bringing in laws you didn't vote for. So in sitiations like this I think a referendum would be ideal.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-03-2008, 04:57 AM
Marengo's Avatar
Administrator
Royal Blogger, TRF Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 14,304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sg1fan View Post
The Grand Duke would be excommunicated from the Catholic Church if he signed the document and he made a choice to prevent that from happening. As a Roman Catholic he CAN NOT sign it, even if he wanted to without risking the Pope telling him he can not receive sacraments any longer (which is what excommunication is). It's why his Uncle abdicated for a day. He's between a rock and a hard place here. It's his faith or a rubber stamp which apparently means nothing anyway. Easy choice, in my opinion. If Luxembourg wants a Catholic monarch, they had to have understood that would be the decision. It's not like the Church has changed their opinion on this type of issue from when his Uncle abdicated.
I don think the Vatican will excommunicate the grand duke, it would be very unwise and they haven done so when the Belgian king signed the euthanasia law. Of course they might have tried to influence the Grand Duke, they tried the same on king Juan-Carlos of Spain when the gay-marriage bill was passed. He told them basically to bugger of, adding that he was no king Baudouin (in the sense of not a 'puppet' of the Vatican).
__________________
TRF Rules and FAQ
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-03-2008, 05:11 AM
lucien's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 6,216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sg1fan View Post
The Grand Duke would be excommunicated from the Catholic Church if he signed the document and he made a choice to prevent that from happening. As a Roman Catholic he CAN NOT sign it, even if he wanted to without risking the Pope telling him he can not receive sacraments any longer (which is what excommunication is). It's why his Uncle abdicated for a day. He's between a rock and a hard place here. It's his faith or a rubber stamp which apparently means nothing anyway. Easy choice, in my opinion. If Luxembourg wants a Catholic monarch, they had to have understood that would be the decision. It's not like the Church has changed their opinion on this type of issue from when his Uncle abdicated.
Total bogus.Who/whatever makes you think he would be excommunicated from the RC?Nonsense,absolutely nonsense,
they have nothing to do with it.Church and State are separated,even in catholic Luxembourg.They are no doubt happy with his decision,but had he signed,there would have been nothing,nothing at all they could,or would,have done.It is not of their business.

The Grand Duke has the right to veto a law,it is his prerogative so he has every right,and he used it in this case of the euthanasia law.
PM Juncker,who also opposes the euthanasia law btw but strongly feels it should be Parliament to decide,will now have a quick change of the Constitution to lift the right to veto by the Grand Duke.Rightfully so,a Constitutional Monarchy should not have a right to veto for the Monarch where parliament,and only them,are to decide.Due to his orthodox catholic faith (I am catholic myself but unlike Henri and his family,not holyer
than thou) he can not sign this law,at least that is what he feels,and can feel since he has the prerogative of vetoing anything.

That might have worked well in medieval times,but again,a Constitutional Monarch does have the right to be heared and consulted,but
when it comes to the actual execution of Law,signing of it after which it becomes law,that should be it,no obstruction of Laws decided
on by Parliament.That is how matters are done in the other european Monarchies too.

Oh well,it is a nice and sleepy Duchy,matters will calm down sooner then this thread is finished,it's just due to it's size,anything that
happens in that small beautifull little spot is blow'n up to disproportionate sizes and news agencies are always
eager to pick this sort of thing up as if there's a revolution of sorts at hand.There isn't.

Henri just opposed a very strict euthanasia law.Before anyone thinks that allowing euthanasia has people calling their GP's and ask for a shot to the heavens...NO that is not how that works.There is a very strict protocol,here that is,in The Netherlands.A patient must have severe pains and no sight at fully recuperating other than being,fi,paralised and in terrible pain,or in a terminal state due to fe cancer,MS etc..Two independent GP's will come and have a talk with you to check you know what you want and you're capable of expressing your will,and repeat that procedure within three weeks after which an awfull lot of papers and what not has to be filled in and another talk will take place in which a date and time is set.
(Awfull really,as I witnessed several times,not awfull in deeds,but hear/witness making an appointment for a certain day and a certain hour that the GP comes and delivers that awfull smelling drink) but it is the will of the patient.
More often then not,the entire procedure takes much longer then the patient has time of life.

Henri didn't set a foot wrong,but he should be stripped of his right to veto,Constitutional Monarchs do not have that,not here,not in Denmark and not in China...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12-03-2008, 06:38 AM
maria-olivia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 2,230
Belgian's ex Prime Minister Wilfried Maertens said that what happened with King Baudouin more than 15 years ago , should not be possible nowadays.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-03-2008, 08:10 AM
lucien's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 6,216
Quote:
Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
Belgian's ex Prime Minister Wilfried Maertens said that what happened with King Baudouin more than 15 years ago , should not be possible nowadays.
I can very well understand him,he had the toughest time to find a plausible elegant outcome when dear Baudouin refused to sign the Abortion-Law.The King was declared temporarely incapacitated.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-03-2008, 09:07 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: na, Australia
Posts: 175
I would of thought this would be the decision of Luxembourg's parliament not that of the Grand Duke's
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-03-2008, 11:30 AM
lucien's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 6,216
Quote:
Originally Posted by greek101 View Post
I would of thought this would be the decision of Luxembourg's parliament not that of the Grand Duke's
GD Henri does have the right to veto,it is one of his prerogatives.A Law becomes effective after the Grand Duke has
signed it and it has the counter-sign of the government minister involved.

Ofcourse parliament has the decision,it will now lift him of that prerogative to veto law approved by parliament,it shouldn't
have happened as former belgian PM Wilfried Martens,in a reaction to this,said,it should never have happened again after
he had to deal with the late King Baudouin's decision to not sign the belgian Abortion Law and Martens had to find an elegant
way out of that.He did,the King was declared incapacitated to Reign,for 24 hours.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12-03-2008, 12:15 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: San Francisco, United States
Posts: 2,041
Quote:
Originally Posted by greek101 View Post
I would of thought this would be the decision of Luxembourg's parliament not that of the Grand Duke's
If that is the case why would it matter if he signs or not?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 12-03-2008, 02:04 PM
maria-olivia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 2,230
I wonder if the Grand Duke HENRI is really popular , keeping in mind the fact that when I decided the auction of HRH the late Josephine Charlotte 's Juwelry, due to the people of Luxembourg he had to cancel the auction : part of the Juwels were PRESENTS...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 12-03-2008, 02:53 PM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: A, Netherlands
Posts: 92
I think this is a really unwise decision of him. The parliament is elected by the people. Therefore he is now acting against the (understandable) wishes of his people.
This will cost him a lot of his political power imho.

If he feels that stronly he has two options:
1. he either signs the law
2. or he refuses to sign the law and abdicates
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 12-03-2008, 04:30 PM
MamboQueen's Avatar
Gentry
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Los Angeles, United States
Posts: 83
I've been trying for a while, to get my thoughts as organized as I can to post my opinion, but the truth is that I have very mixed feelings, and can't agree with either side 100%, although I lean more in support of the Grand Duke.

I do not agree with assisted suicide. I'm a "liberal-catholic" I understand human pain and suffering, it has hit close to home for me, but I could not fathom the idea dying at my will, instead of God's. For me the ideal solution would be to have the government make it easier/more affordable (or whatever) to have relatives make their terminally ill, as pain-free and comfortable as they can those last days, even if it's by sedation, I can only imagine how it feels to be at a funeral knowing your loved one opted to swallow a shot of poison, because one couldn't afford their comfort and maybe they felt they were a burden. My suggestion isn't as black/white and not impossible, especially since it has been expressed by some that the euthanasia process is strict, complicated and lengthy and that patients usually die before they are even approved. You wouldn't have to watch your loved one suffer and the affected would nto have to choose the inevitable.

Monarchs have always represented the Church and made desicions with religion in the forefront. Parliament represents the State and makes every
day desicions that have nothing to do with religion. They may be separate but the goal is to make the best decision for the citizens. The truth is that Luxemburgers have chosen to have both entities and when both are at odds one opinion should not matter more than the other. If it has become the case however, that Henri's beliefs are getting in the way of Luxemburg's progress, then the monarchy should be abolished forever and just remain a democracy which happens to have a catholic royal family, who's opinion mattered at one point but, no longer. Citizens and Parliament would no longer be inconvenienced by the old-fashioned religious stance of the monarchs and the monarchs can live happily ever as symbols of a by-gone era, with no responsibilities to anyone. Because as some one above mentioned even if the GD abdicates in favor of Guillaume, who's to say Guillaume would sign off on the law to appease Parliament? He may feel just like his father.

I'm sorry if this post reads like a vichysoise of words, but like i said I am mixed up and tried to articulate my opinion as best I could. I know there was a point somewhere in all my bantering but I can't recall where I made it. Anyway, everyone here has expressed valid points, but that is all they are, I don't feel this to be a win/win situation.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 12-03-2008, 04:39 PM
lucien's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 6,216
Quote:
Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
I wonder if the Grand Duke HENRI is really popular , keeping in mind the fact that when I decided the auction of HRH the late Josephine Charlotte 's Juwelry, due to the people of Luxembourg he had to cancel the auction : part of the Juwels were PRESENTS...
Part of the jewels were "not just" presents,as in presents by the Luxembourgians,but once presents to
Queens Astrid and Elisabeth of Belgium,J-C's mother and grandmother,more like "holy stones" to many.

Or he is popular?I think he has popularity yes,I think he is popular.

BBC NEWS | Europe | Luxembourg to reduce duke's power
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 12-03-2008, 07:58 PM
Al_bina's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: City, Kazakhstan
Posts: 5,647
Trimming Grand Duke Henri's powers ... what exactly may the politicians do in order to avoid such crisis in the future?
__________________
"I never did mind about the little things" Amanda, "Point of No Return"
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 12-03-2008, 09:23 PM
Mermaid1962's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: NearTheCoast, Canada
Posts: 5,189
I must say that I respect Grand Duke Henri for not wanting to sign this bill. If he is opposed to it and the PM is opposed to it, I wonder who exactly is pushing for it? Is it most Luxembourg people or is it a vocal minority who have pressured parliamentarians into voting for this? Has there been a referendum for example?

Personally, I agree with the palliative care/hospice approach that another poster mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucien View Post
The Grand Duke has the right to veto a law,it is his prerogative so he has every right,and he used it in this case of the euthanasia law.
PM Juncker,who also opposes the euthanasia law btw but strongly feels it should be Parliament to decide
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 12-03-2008, 11:31 PM
Nitefeatherz's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NY, United States
Posts: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al_bina View Post
I see. Given your opinion, I think that it would be better for Grand Duke Henri to sign the law. Grand Duke Guillaume is very young to assume the burden of ruling the country.
I don't understand why some people feel it's sign the law or abdicate. Why can't there just be a way to overrule the refusal of the Grand Duke rather than remove his ability to pass all laws completely?

Similar to what we Americans have in our balance of powers....our legislative body can decide to overrule the presidential veto if they want the law passed badly enough it just takes more time to put it through once it's been veto'd.

That allows the Grand Duke to follow his beliefs and allows the legislative body the ability to pass the laws they want without one person holding them back.
__________________
The shoe that fits one person pinches another; there is no recipe for living that suits all cases.
-Carl Gustav Jung
Do what you feel in your heart to be right for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do and damned if you don't.
-Eleanor Roosevelt
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 12-04-2008, 03:24 AM
lucien's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 6,216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
I must say that I respect Grand Duke Henri for not wanting to sign this bill. If he is opposed to it and the PM is opposed to it, I wonder who exactly is pushing for it? Is it most Luxembourg people or is it a vocal minority who have pressured parliamentarians into voting for this? Has there been a referendum for example?

Personally, I agree with the palliative care/hospice approach that another poster mentioned.

All other parties except for Juncker's wish a law on the matter.

You can't really say that until you,or anyone for that matter,has to decide and face that moment.Palliative care is absolutely good,and people do not have to suffer pain,at all,ever.But if they wish to end their lives as they've become a mere shadow of their old selves due to fe a terminal illness,then they should have the right to say so and act.What happens now is that many doctors find themselves in a position that they decide ad hoc with the patient and,and family,on how to go about after having been confronted with the patients highly uncomfortable situation for a while.

I have known people who opted for it,and at the moment supreme refused,their good right,and I have seen devout catholics,of whom I never thought they would even mention/raise the subject,ask for the possibility to have euthanasia.People are people and change minds quick in many matters,but certainly in this.What the church thinks
on matters medical is of no consequence/importance at all anymore,that was in the past,it is the human suffering
and human dignity that matters.

Hold on,ofcourse many,thank God,still hold to their faith as it does give them much comfort,and I respect that.
But meanwhile the world,and most of all the medical world,has changed enormously,views have not stood still
but evolved,so it would be a good if euthanasia comes out in the open,becomes legal,instead of the sneaky
backdoor partly "illegal" ways in use now as described above.Everywhere.I do not know what I would do in such
a situation,you/I can't tell untill actually faced with it.Believe me,one has gone through many ordeals before they
reach for that decision.

All in all,as it emerges,it is said PM Juncker tackled the Grand Duke in this matter,with the tacky aside,that Juncker opposes the law too,but as rumours have it,the working relationship between the Grand Duke and PM Juncker,who's been in office for 13 years,is far from ideal.The GD has never before been involved in politics,only environmental issues have his open support.He is a modern and businesslike man,no-one expected him to move into the open with his view on euthanasia,but Juncker sees his chance fit to kick Henri in the behind.

I think PM's shouldn't be in office for 13 years,power corrupts,and this present day machiavelli has been around too long.
You might find Luxembourgians demand the PM to step back,but never Henri.As we say in dutch,this story will have a little tail.....
Interesting:

HenriM made a translation of articles in this mornings papers:

http://members3.boardhost.com/Benelu...228348919.html

courtesy Henri_M,BRMB.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 12-04-2008, 04:57 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: na, Australia
Posts: 175
I don't think any of us will ever know the grand duke's reasons for not wanting to sign this and I think maybe an idea for it to remain that way as monarchs today are expected to be impartial to most controversial topics nowadays such as politics etc and as far as I know it is the same in Luxembourg and it is unfair for the grand duke to have to remain impartial for some topics but then to have to a public stance on other controversial topics but that is just my opinion on the matter
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 12-04-2008, 08:24 AM
Marengo's Avatar
Administrator
Royal Blogger, TRF Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 14,304
I don't see how this is all; the fault of PM Juncker to be honest. It seems GD Henri got hiomself into this mess all by himself and that the PM and parlament demands that the GD's powers will be limited is not too surprising. The veto-right is not meant for cases like this but the character of that right is that the GD might use it if some big disparity between the decisions in parlament and real-life emerges. This is not the case now, since ther eis no overwhelming majority of Luxembourgians against this bill.

I see that GDss Maria Theresa is also said to be a member of the catholic charimatic movement, like much of the Belgian RF, so perhaps that plays a role in this.
__________________

__________________
TRF Rules and FAQ
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
controversy, grand duke henri


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Grand Duke Henri & Grand Duchess Maria Teresa, Current Events 6 (March 2008-May 2014) kwanfan Current Events Archive 469 05-12-2014 12:11 AM
Grand Duke Henri & Grand Duchess Maria Teresa, Current Events 5 (June 2006-Mar 2008) Danielle Current Events Archive 203 03-04-2008 12:55 AM
Grand Duke Henri & Grand Duchess Maria Teresa, Current Events 4 (February-June 2006) Alexandria Current Events Archive 196 06-04-2006 02:14 AM
Grand Duke Henri & Grand Duchess Maria Teresa, Current Events 3 (Aug 2005 - Feb 2006) Gabriella Current Events Archive 236 02-08-2006 08:32 PM
Grand Duke Henri & Grand Duchess Maria Teresa, Current Events 2 (Sep 2003 - Aug 2005) Fireweaver Current Events Archive 221 08-28-2005 12:00 PM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
birth charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit current events duchess of cambridge dutch royal history engagement fashion grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri habsburg hohenzollern infanta sofia jewellery jordan kate middleton king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg nobility olympic games ottoman picture of the month pom prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince felipe prince felix prince floris prince maurits prince pieter-christiaan princess aimee princess anita princess astrid princess beatrix princess charlene princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess marilene princess mary princess mary fashion queen anne-marie queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal royal fashion russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit sweden wedding winter olympics 2014



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:50 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]