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  #721  
Old 09-27-2014, 09:23 AM
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These laws basically protect those who were born within marriage and to penalize those that are not.

I do feel sorry for Delphine but at the same time believe that she has gone about this the wrong way. I'm not sure what the right way of going about this would be, but I think if I were her, I would try to be recognized through private channels or just do nothing and see where the chips may fall.

It would be better if the King recognized her rather than her going to court and forcing the issue which this is what she's doing. In this situation no one wins.
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Old 09-27-2014, 03:30 PM
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As (legal) daughter of Jonkheer Jacques BoŽl, Delphine is a Jonkvrouw, with the form of address Hoogwelgeboren Vrouwe (High- and Wellborn Lady).

Jonkheer (Jonkvrouw) is no title but a predicate for sons and daughters of a Jonkheer (= untiled nobility). In Belgium however it is seen a title, worn by all nobles who do not have a higher title, often younger sons of titled nobles.

In French the title Jonkheer is translated as …cuyer but is not used. Instead the form of address is different: Messire (and not Monsieur) and Dame (and not Madame). That comes close to the English Sir and Dame.


This is true, however Jonkheer is rather low in the ranks of Belgian titles - the lowest, I believe. It's feasible to believe that she could have been hoping for a higher title which she could pass on to her own children.
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Old 09-27-2014, 03:41 PM
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This is true, however Jonkheer is rather low in the ranks of Belgian titles - the lowest, I believe. It's feasible to believe that she could have been hoping for a higher title which she could pass on to her own children.
We are way off topic now, but because she isn't married to the father of her children (I think??), her children won't get any titles from her.

Besides, I don't think she is in want of a title, just recognition.
  #724  
Old 09-27-2014, 03:43 PM
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These laws basically protect those who were born within marriage and to penalize those that are not.

I do feel sorry for Delphine but at the same time believe that she has gone about this the wrong way. I'm not sure what the right way of going about this would be, but I think if I were her, I would try to be recognized through private channels or just do nothing and see where the chips may fall.

It would be better if the King recognized her rather than her going to court and forcing the issue which this is what she's doing. In this situation no one wins.

I don't think it's so much about protecting the legitimate children and penalizing the illegitimate ones as it is about ensuring stability.

Say illegitimate individuals were in the line of succession. This is fine and dandy for people who are acknowledged illegitimate children - say RaphaŽl Elmaleh - from stable relationships. But what about those who are from one night stands? Or those who the person didn't know about and reappear later on in life?

Say Albert II had an illegitimate son that was born before Philippe. Who should be king then - Philippe or his (hypothetical) elder brother? One is a man who grew up Royal and was trained for his role most of his life, while the other could be anyone. This provides no stability whatsoever for the Belgian monarchy. Excluding illegitimate children has nothing to do with penalizing them so much as ensuring stability in the monarchy itself.
  #725  
Old 09-27-2014, 04:51 PM
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This is true, however Jonkheer is rather low in the ranks of Belgian titles - the lowest, I believe. It's feasible to believe that she could have been hoping for a higher title which she could pass on to her own children.
Jonkheer indeed is the lowest title in Belgium and no title but a predicate in the Netherlands. There are families however of great standing which are "just" Jonkheer, there are also old famous patrician families which refuse to have a noble title because they feel their prestige is bigger than any noble title can give.

Picture: Jonkheer Jan Six XI in front of his direct ancestor Jan Six I (1618-1700) painted by Rembrandt: http://www.wmagazine.com/wp-content/...randt_01_v.jpg

However a "mere" Jonkheer, the family has great wealth and prestige. Like in many royal, aristocratic and partrician families, the patrimonium has been protected against fragmentation by placing these in foundations. An example is the Collection Six with amazing artworks, style chambers, etc. The Jonkheer in the picture (Jonkheer Jan Six) still lives, amidst artworks, in his old family's canal mansion in Amsterdam. A "low" Jonkheer can have a greater prestige than a higher titled gentleman. The Six family definitely still is Amsterdam's elite.

  #726  
Old 09-28-2014, 10:21 AM
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When the person wrote the book, did the Author know anything about Delphine and her mother relationship with the King prior to writing the book or researching it. Someone would have had to tell the author about this or the author perhaps had heard about it and was investigating it further when researching the book.

It would be interesting to find out who told the author? I doubt that it was Delphine or her mother and it certainly wouldn't have been the King. It most likely was someone else who knew about the relationship and it would have been interesting to find out what their motive was for revealing this.

If Delphine wanted a relationship with the King, this would not be the route to go if she was the one who told this to the reporter which I tend to doubt.

Growing up I lacked a father figure or any male figure for that matter (my biological father met me but didn't really know what to do with me, so he totally distanced himself from me) and my adopted father left when I was very young. People over the years have felt sorry for me or felt bad for me but such is life.
I have wondered about the same thing, the secret was well-protected for years, how did it become public.
I remember reading somewhere, probably in this forum, that King Baudouin informed some of the ministers about the presence of an illegitimate child. My guess is that's where the information reached Mario Daneels.
  #727  
Old 09-28-2014, 11:45 AM
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Mario Danneels wrote the book about Paola. For the book he interviewed people around the family/court, courtiers, friends, politicians etc. Acoording to Danneels they talked about the fact freely, as if it was common knowledge. Later some were upset that he actually published it though.

Danneels claimed last year that Paola can't handle the situation at all and that she forced Albert to break of contact with Delphine. I have no idea if that is reliable information as the author didn't mention his sources.
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  #728  
Old 09-28-2014, 12:17 PM
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I feel so sorry for Delphine to be in this situation. This is her real life and she deserves an acknowledgement of her parentage. I don't see that she is asking for or expecting any title, position, or heritage, just a recognition of what is true in her life. She is a real person, not a hypothetical illegitimate child. I hope the courts will give her the satisfaction and acknowledgement that she seeks. I suspect then she will not pursue anything else.
  #729  
Old 09-28-2014, 01:03 PM
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I feel so sorry for Delphine to be in this situation. This is her real life and she deserves an acknowledgement of her parentage. I don't see that she is asking for or expecting any title, position, or heritage, just a recognition of what is true in her life. She is a real person, not a hypothetical illegitimate child. I hope the courts will give her the satisfaction and acknowledgement that she seeks. I suspect then she will not pursue anything else.
She knows that Albert is her father. She has no doubt about that. So what does she want exactly? Humiliation of Queen Paola? What if her alleged father would have divorced Paola indeed to marry her mother, Baroness Sybille, and leave three children apart in a broken marriage? Was Delphine happy then? "I have a daddy, lalala, that other marriage is not my problem"?

Delphine has a daddy. That is Jonkheer Jacques BoŽl. She has a stepdaddy. That is Michael-Anthony Rathmore Cayzer. She has a natural daddy. Maybe that was (then) Prince Albert of Belgium. How many more daddies (and all of them very privileged and wealthy men belonging to high society) can someone have?

  #730  
Old 09-28-2014, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
She knows that Albert is her father. She has no doubt about that. So what does she want exactly? Humiliation of Queen Paola? What if her alleged father would have divorced Paola indeed to marry her mother, Baroness Sybille, and leave three children apart in a broken marriage? Was Delphine happy then? "I have a daddy, lalala, that other marriage is not my problem"?

Delphine has a daddy. That is Jonkheer Jacques BoŽl. She has a stepdaddy. That is Michael-Anthony Rathmore Cayzer. She has a natural daddy. Maybe that was (then) Prince Albert of Belgium. How many more daddies (and all of them very privileged and wealthy men belonging to high society) can someone have?


This is a ridiculous comment. There's no indication that she's looking for other families to be broken or embarrassment for anyone. Have you ever considered that it's mortifying for her to know that her biological father won't publicly claim her as his own?? Do you know how much that hurts?? It's not about money, it's not about privilege, and it's not about society. It's about a human being knowing that she was brought into the world as a worthwhile person - and a lot of that sentiment and feeling comes from knowing that our parents love and protect and are faithful to us.
  #731  
Old 09-28-2014, 02:35 PM
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It seems like certain events are known in one circle of people, but not in another. If someone is writing a book and they are doing an interview I would assume that whatever I told that person would be included in their book and would try to be careful what I said. Some people have a way to getting you to talk without you realizing it and once you do,it's out there. Of course you can't control what information others tell the interviewer but if it comes out, then it's not on you.

Sometimes people forget about this when doing an interview. That's why it's hard for me to understand why some people would be upset if something they told someone writing a book would appear in their book. The author isn't going to protect anyone's secrets.

It seems to be well if it's common knowledge in one group of people, that somehow others outside that group will not find out about it. Usually at some point they do and it may be decades later in the case of Delphine Boel.

It would be difficult for the average person to deal with rejection from their biological father and the father that raised them, but the fact that Delphine Boel is being rejected from two fathers would be very hard to deal with especially since it's public knowledge.
  #732  
Old 09-28-2014, 04:16 PM
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A flemish tv item about the case. Several people with different views on the matter are interviewed.

Her lawyers claim that the Royal Bank of Scotland closed her accounts due to this matter. She received a letter informing her that all her accounts would be closed, the bank didn't explain way and pointed out that they would not give further information. They think that she was put on a list of terrorists hence the accounts were closed.

Danneels only put one sentense in the book of Paola, 15 years ago, saying that Paola refused to accept the half-sister of her children.

The palace put pressure on her to move

In 2000 and 2001 lbert still sent her gifts for christmas. Danneels claims to know from a good source that when the name Delphine is dropped, she gets angry. She thinks she had to make a lot of sacrifices in her life as princess and queen and in her marriage.

Some politicians who had a close connection with Baudouin already knew or heard rumours about the existance of an extramarital child. Wilfried Martens told Danneels that all in the book was true. Herman de Croo refuses to comment, and casts doubts.According to Danneels the King and Guy Verhofstad wanted to give more openess about Delphine, but Paola didn't allow it.

72% of the Flemish think that Albert should share a DNA sample.

Danneels says that it is sad for all involved.

Delphine lawyer doesn't expect that the king will cooperate volutarily.

Delphine BoŽl vs koning Albert | VTM
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  #733  
Old 09-28-2014, 04:18 PM
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I feel so sorry for Delphine to be in this situation. This is her real life and she deserves an acknowledgement of her parentage. I don't see that she is asking for or expecting any title, position, or heritage, just a recognition of what is true in her life. She is a real person, not a hypothetical illegitimate child. I hope the courts will give her the satisfaction and acknowledgement that she seeks. I suspect then she will not pursue anything else.
Yes this is why I feel she has very right to do what she is doing, I wonder if maybe the reasons behind her actions might be the fact that she was treated with such disrespect by some members of the royal family and she wants them to know that she won't go quietly and not at all. This is a young lady who deserves her answers and before the world for KA was a man who was more then visible in the world and in some ways still is very visible in this world. ALL CHILDREN deserve to be acknowledge by their parents, that is a given in life and I have never seen nor read that she is seeking a title, line to the throne, money or anything other then acknowledgement.
  #734  
Old 09-28-2014, 04:25 PM
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She knows that Albert is her father. She has no doubt about that. So what does she want exactly? Humiliation of Queen Paola? What if her alleged father would have divorced Paola indeed to marry her mother, Baroness Sybille, and leave three children apart in a broken marriage? Was Delphine happy then? "I have a daddy, lalala, that other marriage is not my problem"?

Delphine has a daddy. That is Jonkheer Jacques BoŽl. She has a stepdaddy. That is Michael-Anthony Rathmore Cayzer. She has a natural daddy. Maybe that was (then) Prince Albert of Belgium. How many more daddies (and all of them very privileged and wealthy men belonging to high society) can someone have?

Your comment says to me that you would wish this lady would just be quiet and go away........Has KA come out in public and said he is her father? NO he has not, he has run as far away as possible and that shows his character and it is not pretty at all, There is no reason to talk about *what if's* for that did not happen, this is the here and now issue.........put yourself in her shoes and see how you would feel...........I think she is angry and upset over the treatment that she has received by members of the royal family and this is her way of saying I am not going quietly and not at all.....so live with it.............Good for her. I don't like deadbeat parents of any sex at all, and QP being a mother should have had more respect for this child(when she was born for it is not the child's fault whom her parents are, she had no choice in that..........so KA and QP should get over themselves and do the right thing.
  #735  
Old 09-28-2014, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
A flemish tv item about the case. Several people with different views on the matter are interviewed.

Her lawyers claim that the Royal Bank of Scotland closed her accounts due to this matter. She received a letter informing her that all her accounts would be closed, the bank didn't explain way and pointed out that they would not give further information. They think that she was put on a list of terrorists hence the accounts were closed.

Danneels only put one sentense in the book of Paola, 15 years ago, saying that Paola refused to accept the half-sister of her children.

The palace put pressure on her to move

In 2000 and 2001 lbert still sent her gifts for christmas. Danneels claims to know from a good source that when the name Delphine is dropped, she gets angry. She thinks she had to make a lot of sacrifices in her life as princess and queen and in her marriage.

Some politicians who had a close connection with Baudouin already knew or heard rumours about the existance of an extramarital child. Wilfried Martens told Danneels that all in the book was true. Herman de Croo refuses to comment, and casts doubts.According to Danneels the King and Guy Verhofstadt wanted to give more openess about Delphine, but Paola didn't allow it.

72% of the Flemish think that Albert should share a DNA sample.

Danneels says that it is sad for all involved.

Delphine lawyer doesn't expect that the king will cooperate volutarily.

Delphine BoŽl vs koning Albert | VTM

Paola's reaction and strong refusal is a bit strange to me. Although it is not at all easy for a woman to accept the extramarital child of her husband, but in this case Paola is also blamed. Their marriage was broken and both are blamed. So what is expected, when both of them start to have their own extramarital affairs?
  #736  
Old 09-28-2014, 05:10 PM
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Delphine has a daddy. That is Jonkheer Jacques BoŽl.
Jonkheer Jacques BoŽl is not the father of Delphine BoŽl.

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She has a stepdaddy. That is Michael-Anthony Rathmore Cayzer.
The Hon Michael-Anthony Rathmore Cayzer has been dead since 1990.
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Old 09-28-2014, 05:47 PM
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This is a ridiculous comment. There's no indication that she's looking for other families to be broken or embarrassment for anyone. Have you ever considered that it's mortifying for her to know that her biological father won't publicly claim her as his own?? Do you know how much that hurts?? It's not about money, it's not about privilege, and it's not about society. It's about a human being knowing that she was brought into the world as a worthwhile person - and a lot of that sentiment and feeling comes from knowing that our parents love and protect and are faithful to us.
It is not that ridiculous. If the rumours are true, then Delphine was never neglected or conveniently forgotten by her assumed natural father. If the rumours are true, the Prince de LiŤge regularly visited her and also did sent her presents for her birthday. So en cercle famille and so to see also en petit comitť (the Household, the incrowd) her existence seems to have been known.

So in everything it seems that -if the Prince de LiŤge was her natural father as is claimed- everyone, but the public knew. Now you say it's mortifying for her to know that her natural father would not publicly claim her as his own. Her alleged natural father in the meantime became King of the Belgians, her alleged natural father is married with a proud Italian Princess and with her he has three children and twelve grandchildren. Most likely Donna Paola has her pride, her dignity and her reputation, in some cultures -like conservative Italian cultures pride, dignity and reputation are all.

The only effect of Delphine, if the alleged father turns out to be her real father, is that of humiliation of the Queen, a kneefall of the King and what is effectively what she wants? What is it then that Albert is her papa? Will it make her life glourious and happy? Will choirs of angels then guide her on her already golden path of life, with gentle blossoms falling down, spreading a divine scent?

Come on, life is not fair. Delphine has had the unluck (some would say luck anyway) possibly to be the daughter of a man in the supreme position of the social pyramid. Too bad that this man was married and too bad that her mother engaged in an affair with a married man. C'est la vie. Despite this less ideal starting point, this lady has had an extremely privileged life with all possible opportunities presented to her on golden plates. So, no, I have not so much empathy with her. She is on crash course and it leads to nothing.

Amen.

  #738  
Old 09-28-2014, 05:53 PM
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Jonkheer Jacques BoŽl is not the father of Delphine BoŽl.
Until the day of today Jonkheer Jacques BoŽl, who acknowledged Delphine as his daughter when she was born, is her (legal) father.
  #739  
Old 09-28-2014, 06:02 PM
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Until the day of today Jonkheer Jacques BoŽl, who acknowledged Delphine as his daughter when she was born, is her (legal) father.
Though, as confirmed by recent DNA testing, Jonkheer Jacques BoŽl is not the biological father of Delphine BoŽl. Thus, he is not her father. Amen.

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Old 09-28-2014, 06:03 PM
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Paola's reaction and strong refusal is a bit strange to me. Although it is not at all easy for a woman to accept the extramarital child of her husband, but in this case Paola is also blamed. Their marriage was broken and both are blamed. So what is expected, when both of them start to have their own extramarital affairs?
Donna Paola dei principi Ruffo di Calabria went, as a young girl, to far away and unknown Belgium to marry the Prince de LiŤge. Her life was not easy, her marriage was not easy and -never destined to be Queen- the role of Queen (which placed her in full spotlights) was hard for her, as she is naturally a shy person. Most likely Queen Paola feels she has brought sacrifices in her life for her royal role and at minimum deserves to have her pride, her dignity and her reputation. Most likely, from her 56 (!) years of turbulent royal life in Belgium, she has a diametrically different viewpoint on the same case as Delphine. Her pride, her dignity and her reputation can also mean that she despises "that woman" (Sybille) and ignores her whole existence. All in the assumption that Albert is indeed the father, let us keep in mind that this is still not proven.
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