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  #141  
Old 01-03-2016, 07:21 AM
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Has there been any news on where the Prince Consort will retire to ,possibly the Château de Cayx?
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  #142  
Old 01-03-2016, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
I think the most important person in PH's world is... (drum-roll) PH himself.

Don't get me wrong, it's not malice, probably not even a grandiose perception of himself. That's just the way his character was formed and how he has seen himself all his life.
I could write about 8.000 about why I think so.
To be brief: I've met such people before, very up close actually.
It's not malice, not even selfishness. It's a kind of self-absorbment. A person like PH has huge problems comprehending that the he isn't the most important person in the room (despite trivialities like protocol, which he will go along with because "it's just for show") at any time.
To him this is natural thing, a matter of fact and he cannot understand why other people don't share his own view of himself.
That means the criticism and what he will see as lack of acknowledgement genuinely hurts!
And when he doesn't get the attention he truly believe he deserves, he will sulk and whine.

In short: I believe PH see himself as the most important character in the show that is his life.
There are others who have realized that we are only extras in the big show or at best supporting cast to the main character, our wife.
And I believe Frederik, just like his grandfather Frederik IX, is perfectly contend and indeed happy with the supporting role as husband to Mary.
It's certainly the impression I get when you see them together.

Thus ends this short venture into the realm of psychology.

Oh excellent post.. I have known 2 people who fit your description and you are so right. It's like the world should revolve around them and truly don't understand why it doesn't


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  #143  
Old 01-03-2016, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
On the Crown Princely Couple's defunct website, it was written:

I am aware of that and that is why, in my previous post, I wrote: "if we go by the old patrilineal naming conventions."

Frederik may choose to keep the dynasty's name, as Queen Juliana, Queen Beatrix and King Willem-Alexander also chose to do in the Netherlands. That doesn't change the fact though that, using the old naming convention, the dynasty changes every time it becomes extinct in male line. Although there are still living descendants in male line of King Christian X, Denmark's decision to switch to cognatic primogeniture giving Queen Margrethe II precedence in the succession over her uncle means that Frederik will begin a new dynasty when he ascends the throne, whether that is officially acknowledged or not.

A controversial topic indeed.
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  #144  
Old 01-03-2016, 07:59 AM
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This is the best Solution for every Member of the Royal Family of Denmark.

There is no hate in this Family , he remains a good husband , a good Father and an excellent Grand Pa.

May He have quiet days and a happy end of his life.
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  #145  
Old 01-03-2016, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by grevinnan View Post
I agree with your post. He is hardly a role model for consorts.
I think he was a fantastic role model for consorts. He managed to get an own independent profile, apart from his charismatic and flamboyant spouse. He could life the life of a grand gentilhomme, he enjoyed all royal trappings to the fullest, found himself back as the undisputed Pater Familias of a family he visibly loves to bits. He could enjoy his hobbies like his beloved Gravhunden (Dachshunds), writing poetry in French, making and even composing music, being a mecenas for the arts (the sculpture park near Marselisborg), lead the life of a countryside gentleman (the annual hunts), having a great château with vineyards in the Cahors and last-but-not-least, his De Laborde de Monpezat son and grandson will head Europe's eldest monarchy... One could do worser as a Consort. Plenty of examples of quite problematic royal consorts (Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands) or the total opposite: royal consorts vegetating in the mighty shadow of a strong-willed Sovereign (Félix de Luxembourg, Heinrich of the Netherlands) or royal consorts feeling bored in marriage and starting liaisons dangereux (Diana of Wales). In that sense there is little to nag about in Henri's 50 long and eventful years as Prince of Denmark.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I am aware of that and that is why, in my previous post, I wrote: "if we go by the old patrilineal naming conventions."

Frederik may choose to keep the dynasty's name, as Queen Juliana, Queen Beatrix and King Willem-Alexander also chose to do in the Netherlands. That doesn't change the fact though that, using the old naming convention, the dynasty changes every time it becomes extinct in male line. Although there are still living descendants in male line of King Christian X, Denmark's decision to switch to cognatic primogeniture giving Queen Margrethe II precedence in the succession over her uncle means that Frederik will begin a new dynasty when he ascends the throne, whether that is officially acknowledged or not.

A controversial topic indeed.
It is partly officially acknowledged since also in Denmark, like in the Netherlands and Luxembourg, the paternal surname has been included to mark their descendance. Also the paternal arms have been included in the royal arms.

Luxembourg:
Jean is also Prince de Bourbon de Parme (son of Félix)
Henri is also Prince de Bourbon de Parme (son of Jean)
Guillaume is also Prince de Bourbon de Parme (son of Henri)
The personal Arms of the Grand-Duke include the Arms of the royal family De Bourbon de Parme

Netherlands:
Juliana was also Duchess of Mecklenburg (daughter of Heinrich)
Beatrix is also Princess of Lippe-Biesterfeld (daugher of Bernhard)
Willem-Alexander is also Jonkheer van Amsberg (son of Claus)
The personal Arms of the King include the Arms of the noble family Von Amsberg (heartshield)

Denmark:
The sons and grandchildren of Prince Henrik are created Count (Countess) de Monpezat. The personal arms show the Arms of De Laborde de Monpezat in the heartshield.

United Kingdom:
The surname of male-line descendants of Queen Elizabeth II and Philip Mountbatten is Mountbatten-Windsor. The arms of his sons however do not have a reference to their father's Greco-Danish arms.

So, while keeping the name of the royal dynasty intact (Nassau in Luxembourg, Orange-Nassau in the Netherlands, etc.) it is clear that the "contribution" of the royal fathers to the dynasty often is recognized in names, styles and arms.

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  #146  
Old 01-03-2016, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
I think the most important person in PH's world is... (drum-roll) PH himself.

Don't get me wrong, it's not malice, probably not even a grandiose perception of himself. That's just the way his character was formed and how he has seen himself all his life.
I could write about 8.000 words about why I think so.
To be brief: I've met such people before, very up close actually.
It's not malice, not even selfishness. It's a kind of self-absorbment. A person like PH has huge problems comprehending that the he isn't the most important person in the room (despite trivialities like protocol, which he will go along with because "it's just for show") at any time.
To him this is natural thing, a matter of fact and he cannot understand why other people don't share his own view of himself.
That means the criticism and what he will see as lack of acknowledgement genuinely hurts!
And when he doesn't get the attention he truly believe he deserves, he will sulk and whine.

In short: I believe PH see himself as the most important character in the show that is his life.
There are others who have realized that we are only extras in the big show or at best supporting cast to the main character, our wife.
And I believe Frederik, just like his grandfather Frederik IX, is perfectly contend and indeed happy with the supporting role as husband to Mary.
It's certainly the impression I get when you see them together.

Thus ends this short venture into the realm of psychology.
I completely agree with you this sums up Henrik perfectly.

I have of late myself compared Frederik and Mary to Frederik and Ingrid. Mary is an Ingrid, she is the one who holds the family together. Much like the Queen Mother with George VI. These are the type of people who hold royal dynasties together.
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  #147  
Old 01-03-2016, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Frederik may choose to keep the dynasty's name, as Queen Juliana, Queen Beatrix and King Willem-Alexander also chose to do in the Netherlands. That doesn't change the fact though that, using the old naming convention, the dynasty changes every time it becomes extinct in male line. Although there are still living descendants in male line of King Christian X, Denmark's decision to switch to cognatic primogeniture giving Queen Margrethe II precedence in the succession over her uncle means that Frederik will begin a new dynasty when he ascends the throne, whether that is officially acknowledged or not.
That is the viewpoint of people who only acknowledge patrilineal dynasties, but because the Queen and Crown Prince are seemingly not of this view, it is unlikely that the Prince Consort will give his family name to the dynasty besides the title Count of Monpezat.
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  #148  
Old 01-03-2016, 04:34 PM
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I fail to understand why Prince Henrik whined/whines about his situation. He was aware of his status, when he married the Heiress Presumptive to the Danish throne. Hopefully Prince Henrik will enjoy his retirement and refrain from comments.
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  #149  
Old 01-03-2016, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Well, if we go by the old patrilineal naming conventions, Frederik, when he ascends the Danish throne, will be the first monarch of the new royal House of Monpezat. Giving his family name to the royal dynasty of Europe's oldest monarchy is indeed quite an achievement for Henri.
When you marry a queen consort the reality is that your children are not going to carry your name. Or at least not as the official one. Philip faced this when his kids are Windsors and not Mountbattans. Claus knew his sons would be Orange-Nassau's and not vonAmsburgs. Daniel's kids with Vic are Bernadottes and not Westlings.
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  #150  
Old 01-03-2016, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
That is the viewpoint of people who only acknowledge patrilineal dynasties, but because the Queen and Crown Prince are seemingly not of this view, it is unlikely that the Prince Consort will give his family name to the dynasty besides the title Count of Monpezat.
For centuries the patrineal line has been followed in e-ve-ry genealogical tree but suddenly now we must ignore history and turn a blind eye to reality. As a monarchy is a form of state in which the heir is delivered via hereditary succession inside an approved marriage, we can not erase history simply because it is 2016.

Prince Carl Philip was the Crown Prince and is the next generation in the direct male lineage of all those Bernadotte Kings before him. The procreation of the real and direct royal Bernadotte line goes via his children. To confuse things Estelle Westling, Leonore O'Neill and Nicholas O'Neill are now suddenly created "Bernadotte" and it is Estelle O'Neill, pardon eh... Bernadotte, who will bypass her uncle, once the Crown Prince and the Heir indeed, and with her a new patrineal dynasty will start on the throne of Sweden. To make the confusion complete: her father's unmissable contribution to her whole existence is ignored. Westling does not exist. Bernadotte is the name...

With the same effect we can say that with Doña Leonor's eldest child, when she does not marry a Bourbon, the centuries old rule of the royal Bourbon dynasty in Spain will come to an end. To acknowledge the paternal input but to preserve the name of the historical dynasty, the descendants of Prince Henrik are also Count (Countess) de Monpezat. The descendants of the late Prince Claus are also Count (Countess) van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg. The descendants of the late Prince Félix are also Prince (Princess) de Bourbon de Parme.

So yes, artificially the name of the dynasty is maintained (Bernadotte, Orange-Nassau, Nassau, etc.) but at least the paternal input has been made visible in adding the surname, title and arms of the father, precizely to maintain some logic and credibility in following the genalogy of the royal dynasty. I am happy that Denmark, Luxembourg and the Netherlands have included the male surnames in the titulature. Too bad that Sweden somehow seems to have forgotten Westling in this.
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  #151  
Old 01-03-2016, 05:10 PM
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Not to be pedantic and bit off topic, but Prince Philip's descendants will carry the surname Windsor-Mountbatten, when applicable, and Prince Daniel actually took the name of his wife. He is registered as Daniel Olaf Westling Bernadotte, with Westling as his middle name .
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  #152  
Old 01-03-2016, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
When you marry a queen consort the reality is that your children are not going to carry your name. Or at least not as the official one. Philip faced this when his kids are Windsors and not Mountbattans. Claus knew his sons would be Orange-Nassau's and not vonAmsburgs. Daniel's kids with Vic are Bernadottes and not Westlings.
That is not true. The male lineage descendants from Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip also have the name Mountbatten-Windsor. The male lineage descendants of Queen Beatrix and Prince Claus also have the name (Van Oranje-Nassau) van Amsberg. The male lineage descendants from Queen Margrethe and Prince Henrik have the name Af Monpezat. Note that Daniel's surname has been changed into Westling Bernadotte. Somehow this surname is forgotten in the style of his daughter but maybe that will be repaired, to avoid confusion with the real Bernadottes.

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Originally Posted by Charlotte_Aster View Post
Not to be pedantic and bit off topic, but Prince Philip's descendants will carry the surname Windsor-Mountbatten, when applicable, and Prince Daniel actually took the name of his wife. He is registered as Daniel Olaf Westling Bernadotte, with Westling as his middle name .
That is the right thing to do (Mountbatten-Windsor) and hopefully they will "repair" the surname of Estelle into Westling Bernadotte too.

Note that the so-called "800 years old Grimaldi dynasty" was effectively the House De Goyon de Matignon from 1731 until 1949 and that since then the "Grimaldis" are in fact a cadet branch of the current Ducal House De Polignac.
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  #153  
Old 01-03-2016, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
For centuries the patrineal line has been followed in e-ve-ry genealogical tree but suddenly now we must ignore history and turn a blind eye to reality. As a monarchy is a form of state in which the heir is delivered via hereditary succession inside an approved marriage, we can not erase history simply because it is 2016.(snip)
We cannot erase history, but we do not have to blindly follow the rules that were applied in the past. We can change the rules, and thus change the traditions, and in future the new rules will be the traditions and the older rules will be viewed as we now view rules such as those which applied under the Feudal system.
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  #154  
Old 01-03-2016, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
I think the most important person in PH's world is... (drum-roll) PH himself.

Don't get me wrong, it's not malice, probably not even a grandiose perception of himself. That's just the way his character was formed and how he has seen himself all his life.
I could write about 8.000 words about why I think so.
To be brief: I've met such people before, very up close actually.
It's not malice, not even selfishness. It's a kind of self-absorbment. A person like PH has huge problems comprehending that the he isn't the most important person in the room (despite trivialities like protocol, which he will go along with because "it's just for show") at any time.
To him this is natural thing, a matter of fact and he cannot understand why other people don't share his own view of himself.
That means the criticism and what he will see as lack of acknowledgement genuinely hurts!
And when he doesn't get the attention he truly believe he deserves, he will sulk and whine.

In short: I believe PH see himself as the most important character in the show that is his life.
There are others who have realized that we are only extras in the big show or at best supporting cast to the main character, our wife.
And I believe Frederik, just like his grandfather Frederik IX, is perfectly contend and indeed happy with the supporting role as husband to Mary.
It's certainly the impression I get when you see them together.

Thus ends this short venture into the realm of psychology.
What great insight and it reminded me of the ex I was married to for way to long, he was the most important person in the world to himself, and thought everyone should think the same.......I sure gave him a run on that issue....
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  #155  
Old 01-03-2016, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
I think the most important person in PH's world is... (drum-roll) PH himself.

Don't get me wrong, it's not malice, probably not even a grandiose perception of himself. That's just the way his character was formed and how he has seen himself all his life.
I could write about 8.000 words about why I think so.
To be brief: I've met such people before, very up close actually.
It's not malice, not even selfishness. It's a kind of self-absorbment. A person like PH has huge problems comprehending that the he isn't the most important person in the room (despite trivialities like protocol, which he will go along with because "it's just for show") at any time.
To him this is natural thing, a matter of fact and he cannot understand why other people don't share his own view of himself.
That means the criticism and what he will see as lack of acknowledgement genuinely hurts!
And when he doesn't get the attention he truly believe he deserves, he will sulk and whine.

In short: I believe PH see himself as the most important character in the show that is his life.
There are others who have realized that we are only extras in the big show or at best supporting cast to the main character, our wife.
And I believe Frederik, just like his grandfather Frederik IX, is perfectly contend and indeed happy with the supporting role as husband to Mary.
It's certainly the impression I get when you see them together.

Thus ends this short venture into the realm of psychology.
You describe a narcissist very well. It is actually a diagnosis, narcissist personality disorder or npd
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  #156  
Old 01-03-2016, 10:49 PM
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I don't see what the deal with mans name is? I mean, yes it was done before.. But at least here in Sweden the couple sit down and decide what name their future family will have. Yes, it's still statistically more the mans name, but very often the womans or even an older family name here. I mean, it's just a name. And if it is such an outrage for a man not to give his name to a child, why not the same outrage that a woman cant give it? It's as much her child!
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  #157  
Old 01-04-2016, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
I think the most important person in PH's world is... (drum-roll) PH himself.

Don't get me wrong, it's not malice, probably not even a grandiose perception of himself. That's just the way his character was formed and how he has seen himself all his life.
I could write about 8.000 words about why I think so.
To be brief: I've met such people before, very up close actually.
It's not malice, not even selfishness. It's a kind of self-absorbment. A person like PH has huge problems comprehending that the he isn't the most important person in the room (despite trivialities like protocol, which he will go along with because "it's just for show") at any time.
To him this is natural thing, a matter of fact and he cannot understand why other people don't share his own view of himself.
That means the criticism and what he will see as lack of acknowledgement genuinely hurts!
And when he doesn't get the attention he truly believe he deserves, he will sulk and whine.
That's not my impression of Henrik. I think he is less self-absorbed than his wife (latest example: Smoking next to her grandchildren) or 2nd son (latest example: when Joachim appears in Tivoli everybody else has to step aside).
When I read all the nasty comments about him I think Henrik probably has the right to feel not appreciated enough. I wonder what he had to experience that turned him into a disappointed man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
In short: I believe PH see himself as the most important character in the show that is his life.
There are others who have realized that we are only extras in the big show or at best supporting cast to the main character, our wife.
And I believe Frederik, just like his grandfather Frederik IX, is perfectly contend and indeed happy with the supporting role as husband to Mary.
It's certainly the impression I get when you see them together.

Thus ends this short venture into the realm of psychology.
Frederik just like his grandfather Frederik IX knows that he is the higher ranking, the future king and does not have a supporting role at all, and his wife is only in the limelight because she married him. Mary may be more important for the tabloids but Frederik (X) will be more important in history books. His study will be preserved in the museum, not hers.
It's a totally different story for Henrik. He knows he is an extra in Margrethes big show and as it seems only noticed when he is not there. He made the same mistake like Frederik, he was too honest about his feelings. And this is now used against him as if all he did in the last years was to complain that he can't be king.
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  #158  
Old 01-04-2016, 07:00 AM
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We are getting off-topic here - this is about Henrik's retirement, not descent through the female line or the British RF's naming customs (which have has its own thread in the British Forum - some specific posts have been moved there) or the name "fixing" of female heirs.

Further discussion on topics other than the Danish Prince Consort's retirement will be either deleted or moved by the moderating team. If you wish to continue the overall discussion of female line descent and naming, you a more than welcome to open a thread in the General Royal Discussion forum.
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  #159  
Old 01-04-2016, 11:22 AM
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¿Un Príncipe jubilado? Te contamos cómo será ahora la vida de Henrik de Dinamarca
here is an article from Hola Magazine that states that Prince Henrik traveled alone to Venice a day after her Majesty Birthday so that saying he really wasn't sick .
So he wasn't sick apparently !
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  #160  
Old 01-06-2016, 12:12 AM
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Interesting article in People magazine

Prince Henrik 'Retires' from Royal Duty, Denmark Sighs in Relief : People.com
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