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  #601  
Old 07-11-2017, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The convention of calling the wife of a reigning queen a king is mostly associated with Portugal and Spain. There is a difference, however, between a king "[I
jure uxoris", [/I]i.e. effectively a co-monarch, as Philip I of Castile was as the husband of Queen Juana, and a king consort, as was the case of Isabella II's husband, King Francis. It is also noteworthy that, under the current royal decree regulating the titles and styles of the Spanish royal family, the husband of a future reigning Queen of Spain (e.g. Princess Leonore's husband when she ascends the throne) will have the dignity only of "Prince" with the style "Royal Highness" and, therefore, won't be entitled to be called "King" or "Majesty" as was the case in the past.

In England, on the other hand, the last king jure uxoris was , I suppose, Philip II of Spain while he was married to Mary I. William III's legal status was somewhat different, as evidentiated by the fact that he continued to reign after Mary II (his wife) was deceased.
Henry Stuart, husband of Mary I of Scotland held the title King Consort. Prince Henrik actually mentioned that the husbands of Scots Queens were called King during one of his rants.

In the UK, Queen Victoria apparently wanted to make Prince Albert King but the Government wouldn't allow it because he was a foreigner.
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  #602  
Old 07-11-2017, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by camelot23ca View Post
So essentially what you're saying is that it's hard for a man to have to put up being treated as poorly as women are as a matter of course? And it's easier for women because they're used to being "reduced" to sidekicks in a marriage and the norm is for them to give things up?

If that's the case then I think there are bigger issues at stake than very privileged men getting their feelings hurt.


I anticipated that it would sound sexist, but, frankly, I am just being realistic. As I said, we still live in a culture where women are expected to give up things for their husbands, more so than husbands are expected to give things up for their wives, so it is not surprising that more women are in practice willing to do it than men are.

I didn't say anything about being "treated poorly" though. Honestly, I don't think any royal (male or female) is" treated poorly " (because of media/public scrutiny, media intrusion in their private lives etc etc). On the contrary, I've always been critical of royals like Prince Harry who complain about how tough their lives are and say they would quit if they could.
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  #603  
Old 07-11-2017, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Honestly, I don't think any royal (male or female) is" treated poorly " (because of media/public scrutiny, media intrusion in their private lives etc etc). On the contrary, I've always been critical of royals like Prince Harry who complain about how tough their lives are and say they would quit if they could.
I agree, with the exception of Queen Sonja, but that has nothing to do with this thread.
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  #604  
Old 07-11-2017, 06:54 PM
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One of the issues I have is the apanage of a retired royal be it female or male, in the case of Prince Henrik only I think it should be reduced simply because he is never going to go with out anything in his life. Let him has some spending money for the pocket yet he will never have to pay for a home, the upkeep of that home, food, utilities, medical, transportation etc., all his needs will be met on a daily basis and if he wishes to travel I am sure that will be taken care of as he will have the best and still have someone to travel with him to take care of him, his valet perhaps. He really does not need a staff for what I ask? One secretary, one valet, so what else would he need? He will most surely not need a cook or cleaner or driver or gardener for all those needs are met as according to where he is at the moment. That money/apanage could be used in some part of the royal family that is perhaps more in need of those funds then the wishes of a man whose every need will be met each second of his life. I don't mean for him to go without anything yet it would seem sensible to cut the funds as he retired and does not need them.

One thing I see about Prince Henrik that he did not do...........He did not think things through, he did not really go through the process of what would happen if he retired...a spur of the moment type of situation it seems for if he really thought it out, he would still be Prince Consort and there would be issue of his apanage at all. I see him as a very impulsive man who lives on the moment which is nice if one can always do that.
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  #605  
Old 07-11-2017, 07:08 PM
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Maybe he has a serious illness and he needs to focus on his health; right now we don't know the whole story and royals rarely let it all out in one throw.
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  #606  
Old 07-11-2017, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I anticipated that it would sound sexist, but, frankly, I am just being realistic. As I said, we still live in a culture where women are expected to give up things for their husbands, more so than husbands are expected to give things up for their wives, so it is not surprising that more women are in practice willing to do it than men are.

I didn't say anything about being "treated poorly" though. Honestly, I don't think any royal (male or female) is" treated poorly " (because of media/public scrutiny, media intrusion in their private lives etc etc). On the contrary, I've always been critical of royals like Prince Harry who complain about how tough their lives are and say they would quit if they could.
I meant "treated poorly" in that I see your description in your previous post as women being treated poorly relative to men.

I don't think any of the royals are treated poorly in an absolute sense. Some aspects of their lives are less than pleasant, I'm sure, but I think the royals who put a lot of effort and go above and beyond for their countries generally get a lot back in terms of respect and affection. And I would say most of them enjoy very luxurious lifestyles relative to the amount of work they do.
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  #607  
Old 07-12-2017, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
That "King-thing" is dragged into discussion again and again. Prince Henrik has made remarks about the fact that female consorts are addressed with their spouse's style and male consorts not. I do not agree with him, but undeniably he had a point. In the Netherlands Pieter van Vollenhoven made remarks about that as well: his sons are Princes, his daughters-in-law are addressed as "Princess" but he himself is Mr Van Vollenhoven. Exact the same situation Christopher O'Neill is in, by the way

That Prince Henrik made valid remarks about this schizophrenic situation is Daily Mail-lized as "I want to be King Henrik!" which is just loosing all nuance and sensationalizing it. This "controverse" should not play a role in my humble opinion.
PH has brought up the topic of him becoming a king on numerous occasions, not just a couple of times as a debate-starter.
He has also on numerous occasions expressed his misgivings about not being fully equal to his wife.
- Some might say that he in the holy name of gender equality has a point, but no matter what he cannot be equal to his wife. There can only be one head of state.
That would be the equivalent to the first lady (m/f) in a republic insisting on being equal to the president. That is not possible either.

Also PH has been told in very clear language by leading politicians that he could forget all about becoming king.
Having ignored that, his persistence in bringing up the subject annoys most people I know of

I think it's more a question of PH being a very conservative man, archaic conservative even, and also a very proud man.
In his self-perception he is the head of the family. The undisputed head of the family.
That position is very important for how he see himself and how he feels others see him.
He can, with difficulty, accept that he is subservient to his wife - at least in public. But he would much prefer to also be equal to his wife in every respect.
I think he feels that by being subservient to his wife, people see him as a lesser man.

It makes it even worse when it comes to Frederik!
Already before his retirement, Frederik as the Crown Prince has constitutional roles which means he steps in directly on behalf of the Queen.
In PH eyes, that is usurping his position. Frederik, his son, must be subservient to PH, who is the patriarch until he dies.
That Frederik steps out in front of his father is in PH's eyes a deep affront, a public humiliation - a son should not usurp his father!
And that I think is also one of the reasons why PH so eagerly sought to officially be equal to his wife.

It's a mindset that is very difficult for me to understand, it's also a mindset I don't respect.
But there are countless stories of fathers trying desperately to keep their sons down.
It's a combination of PH's upbringing and a culture clash, combined with an IMO almost incredible refusal to see things from another perspective.
I've said it before: The most important person in PH's life is himself. - And that I think is one of the keys to understanding him.

Mary will get the title of queen one day all right, but no matter what she will still be in the same position as PH, she can never be equal to her husband. The only difference between the two of them will be their titles. But PH cannot or will not see that.

Psychologically speaking it's actually very fascinating.
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  #608  
Old 07-12-2017, 12:48 AM
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I think you've summed it all up perfectly, Muhler, and yes indeed, it is a fascinating psychological study of the 'If I Dont Get What I Want After I've Repeatedly Asked, I'm Taking My Bat and Ball And Going Home' Syndrome!'
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  #609  
Old 07-12-2017, 01:05 AM
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'If I Dont Get What I Want After I've Repeatedly Asked, I'm Taking My Bat and Ball And Going Home' Syndrome!'

I learn something new here all the time, I have never heard that expression before, does it mean that if I stomp my foot and don't get my own way I can pack up and go home? Since I live alone only my dog will be able to see me stomping my feet and he just barks at me .....

Prince Henrik is most certainly a fascinating case study in human psychology, some people grow with the times and develop new ideas on how to do things and some stay in the past never changing their ways which in the long run can cause heartache for the family. I bet my last ice coffee in the fridge that Prince Henrik has caused many problems in his family in regards to this issue of him wanting to be king and heart ache for his lovely wife who loves him dearly.
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  #610  
Old 07-12-2017, 01:24 AM
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Perfectly summed up, Muhler! And I fully agree!

It's a mindset that is very difficult for me to understand too, and I don't respect it at all.
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  #611  
Old 07-12-2017, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by M. Payton View Post
I bet my last ice coffee in the fridge that Prince Henrik has caused many problems in his family in regards to this issue of him wanting to be king and heart ache for his lovely wife who loves him dearly.
This is the part of this never ending saga that bothers me the most, I think. Whether it was fair or not, every time Henrik brought up the King/equal to his wife/not fair issue he knew the media would have a field day. It didn't look good for the monarchy and I'm sure was personally difficult for his wife, especially, but also their children.

Even if Henrik was completely correct , I think if you have to choose being right or doing what's best for your spouse and children, it's a no brainer you pick your family. Even more so if you're the almighty head of the family!
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  #612  
Old 07-12-2017, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
It makes it even worse when it comes to Frederik!
Already before his retirement, Frederik as the Crown Prince has constitutional roles which means he steps in directly on behalf of the Queen.
In PH eyes, that is usurping his position. Frederik, his son, must be subservient to PH, who is the patriarch until he dies.
That Frederik steps out in front of his father is in PH's eyes a deep affront, a public humiliation - a son should not usurp his father!
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by camelot23ca View Post
every time Henrik brought up the King/equal to his wife/not fair issue he knew the media would have a field day. It didn't look good for the monarchy and I'm sure was personally difficult for his wife, especially, but also their children.
It must be a very difficult position for Frederik to be in, and probably since he was quite young, if his own father has shown the resentment, directly or indirectly.
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  #613  
Old 07-12-2017, 11:11 AM
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No wonder Crown Prince Frederik had difficulties accepting his role as future King when he was younger....I am sure that his father's attitude and resentment was a large part of that. Thank God that Frederik found Mary whose strength and support has helped him. And at least Prince Christian isn't growing up with those same insecurities.
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  #614  
Old 07-12-2017, 12:15 PM
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I do think that Henrik's attitude and the attitude of other male consorts is why ANY man should be made to think LONG AND HARD about whether or not he wants to marry a future Queen who will reign in her own right. I am disgusted that these grown men cop an attitude of resentment towards their role and it's not like Henrik didn't know the ways of royalty, being born a prince. He had no business whining and moaning and if he wants to retire, so be it.
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  #615  
Old 07-12-2017, 12:27 PM
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Ummm...Prince Henrik was not born a prince, I think he was a count and even that title was suspect. IMO, Henrik comes across as having delusions of grandeur which became worse as he aged.
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  #616  
Old 07-12-2017, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Terri Terri View Post
No wonder Crown Prince Frederik had difficulties accepting his role as future King when he was younger....I am sure that his father's attitude and resentment was a large part of that. Thank God that Frederik found Mary whose strength and support has helped him. And at least Prince Christian isn't growing up with those same insecurities.
Very good insight there Terri, and that made me think also that over the years of hearing this from his dad that perhaps Frederik acting out has a lot to do with his father's behavior as well as effecting all members of the family.

Yes we can also see how well Prince Christian is growing up and seems to be more capable of adapting to his future role as king all because Frederik and Mary are making sure that type of behavior is not accepted in their household. I think they, Mary and Frederik are pretty good parents for they seem to have a lively bunch of children who always have smiles and get into children antics .....bet that household never sleeps.......Perhaps Prince Henrik should stick to being just a *grandpa* for that role suits him to a T.
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  #617  
Old 07-12-2017, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
PH has brought up the topic of him becoming a king on numerous occasions, not just a couple of times as a debate-starter.
He has also on numerous occasions expressed his misgivings about not being fully equal to his wife.
- Some might say that he in the holy name of gender equality has a point, but no matter what he cannot be equal to his wife. There can only be one head of state.
That would be the equivalent to the first lady (m/f) in a republic insisting on being equal to the president. That is not possible either.

Also PH has been told in very clear language by leading politicians that he could forget all about becoming king.
Having ignored that, his persistence in bringing up the subject annoys most people I know of

I think it's more a question of PH being a very conservative man, archaic conservative even, and also a very proud man.
In his self-perception he is the head of the family. The undisputed head of the family.
That position is very important for how he see himself and how he feels others see him.
He can, with difficulty, accept that he is subservient to his wife - at least in public. But he would much prefer to also be equal to his wife in every respect.
I think he feels that by being subservient to his wife, people see him as a lesser man.

It makes it even worse when it comes to Frederik!
Already before his retirement, Frederik as the Crown Prince has constitutional roles which means he steps in directly on behalf of the Queen.
In PH eyes, that is usurping his position. Frederik, his son, must be subservient to PH, who is the patriarch until he dies.
That Frederik steps out in front of his father is in PH's eyes a deep affront, a public humiliation - a son should not usurp his father!
And that I think is also one of the reasons why PH so eagerly sought to officially be equal to his wife.

It's a mindset that is very difficult for me to understand, it's also a mindset I don't respect.
But there are countless stories of fathers trying desperately to keep their sons down.
It's a combination of PH's upbringing and a culture clash, combined with an IMO almost incredible refusal to see things from another perspective.
I've said it before: The most important person in PH's life is himself. - And that I think is one of the keys to understanding him.

Mary will get the title of queen one day all right, but no matter what she will still be in the same position as PH, she can never be equal to her husband. The only difference between the two of them will be their titles. But PH cannot or will not see that.

Psychologically speaking it's actually very fascinating.
Exactly my thoughts. I disagree completely with Henri and i don't understand him at all. He knew who he choosed by free will to marry in 1967 and what the consequence's would be of that.

But i agree with you too that part of the secret to try to understand him is knowing that we are judging him from the values of today's society wich we all here on this forum takes for granted but is probably completely wrong in his world. He was born in the old School french aristocratic society where his views were completely normal and where any modern values were completely strange. To try to understand him is to try to understand his past, the society he comes from.

Margrethe seems to always have accepted that "he is like he is" and always known how to handle him" but it is a different story with Frederik. He is probably the one who have suffered the most during his whole life because of his father's regular temper tantrums and extreme conservatism. The self confident dutiful family father we see today in Frederik is far from the shy and nervous Crown Prince without self confidence we saw before. I can't and don't want to imagine what must have went trough his head that new year reception a few years back he had to emergency cover for the Queen, wich ended with Prince Henrik fleeing to France in an angry outburst and The Queen and The Prince's basically had to go to persuade him to come back... He must have been so scared when he stepped forward to greet the dignitaries on behalf of his mother, knowing that his father would explode of anger at any second over the fact that his son did that and not him.

As i said, i disagree completely with Henrik but i try to understand why he acts like he does too.
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  #618  
Old 07-12-2017, 02:08 PM
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Being a 'mere' consort is trying for a woman, but at least it's kind of socially accepted for the female to walk two steps behind. For a man, I think it's worse, but really, this is how it's been for centuries. I wonder if whether or not this is why Daniel was forced to wait a long time to make sure he wouldn't start openly whining about being 'just' the husband. I am certain that I am sick of men of these Queens whining about their 'role.' They knew the score before marriage and so no one has ever been justified in complaining about this.
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  #619  
Old 07-12-2017, 02:14 PM
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In Belgium, Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands we all will have Consorts Princes !
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  #620  
Old 07-12-2017, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Hans-Rickard View Post
Exactly my thoughts. I disagree completely with Henri and i don't understand him at all. He knew who he choosed by free will to marry in 1967 and what the consequence's would be of that.

But i agree with you too that part of the secret to try to understand him is knowing that we are judging him from the values of today's society wich we all here on this forum takes for granted but is probably completely wrong in his world. He was born in the old School french aristocratic society where his views were completely normal and where any modern values were completely strange. To try to understand him is to try to understand his past, the society he comes from.

Margrethe seems to always have accepted that "he is like he is" and always known how to handle him" but it is a different story with Frederik. He is probably the one who have suffered the most during his whole life because of his father's regular temper tantrums and extreme conservatism. The self confident dutiful family father we see today in Frederik is far from the shy and nervous Crown Prince without self confidence we saw before. I can't and don't want to imagine what must have went trough his head that new year reception a few years back he had to emergency cover for the Queen, wich ended with Prince Henrik fleeing to France in an angry outburst and The Queen and The Prince's basically had to go to persuade him to come back... He must have been so scared when he stepped forward to greet the dignitaries on behalf of his mother, knowing that his father would explode of anger at any second over the fact that his son did that and not him.

As i said, i disagree completely with Henrik but i try to understand why he acts like he does too.
I think you nailed it.
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